Windvane
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Windvane
I have been wanting to install a windvane on my Triton106 Blossom for a while but cannot seem to find the right vane at the right price (read < $2K). Recently a couple of new windvanes came on market that I thought I will ask the forum contributors to comment on their suitability for Tritons (or similar designs like the Alberg 30, Cape Dory 28, etc...) The two designs that I am most interested are Norvane http://www.selfsteering.com/ and South Atlantic http://www.south-atlantic.com.ar/index.html. I know there are a few other new comers and the industry standards like Monitor, Cape Horn, and Aries, etc... I cannot really afford those so there is no point in discussing them.
Norvane and South Atlantic are both priced at or below $2K depending on the model. According to its website Norvane model that is appropriate for Tritons will be #18 (pictured below left). As for South Atlantic its model S-310 seems to be sufficient for Triton's length but not for its displacement. Its S-440 (pictured below right) is probably a better match.
For those who are not familiar with Tritons they are not particularly well balanced crafts. As a matter of fact the weatherhelm issue of the Tritons have been discussed on this forum a couple of times already. Assuming that I don't do anything about its weatherhelm issue besides just adjusting the sails to balance it as much as possible (i.e. not moving the mast, adding a bowsprit, or recutting the main, etc...) what should I expect from these two vanes? I know James Baldwin and several other Triton owners have installed Monitor and have been happy with it. Could I expect the similar results from either Norvane or South Atlantic?
Thanks very much in advance for your help.
Norvane and South Atlantic are both priced at or below $2K depending on the model. According to its website Norvane model that is appropriate for Tritons will be #18 (pictured below left). As for South Atlantic its model S-310 seems to be sufficient for Triton's length but not for its displacement. Its S-440 (pictured below right) is probably a better match.
For those who are not familiar with Tritons they are not particularly well balanced crafts. As a matter of fact the weatherhelm issue of the Tritons have been discussed on this forum a couple of times already. Assuming that I don't do anything about its weatherhelm issue besides just adjusting the sails to balance it as much as possible (i.e. not moving the mast, adding a bowsprit, or recutting the main, etc...) what should I expect from these two vanes? I know James Baldwin and several other Triton owners have installed Monitor and have been happy with it. Could I expect the similar results from either Norvane or South Atlantic?
Thanks very much in advance for your help.
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
There is a fellow linked on Baldwin's site who installed a Norvane on his Triton and it pretty much sailed him across the Atlantic to Spain.
http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/pajaro.htm
The Norvane looks very interesting to me as well. I like the all stainless construction.
http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/pajaro.htm
The Norvane looks very interesting to me as well. I like the all stainless construction.
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- Master of the Arcane
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Except for #680 which has been known to sail itself for a couple of hours with the tiller tied off. I am not sure I got the mast step exactly back to the original location so I might have improved it by accident.For those who are not familiar with Tritons they are not particularly well balanced crafts.
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Thanks David. I did read about Pajaro's Atlantic crossing. That is a great reference point. I also ran into another Triton owner (Yuri) in Azores who also crossed Atlantic on a Norvane. As a matter of fact it was Yuri that introduced me to Norvane. Yuri also made the same kind of alterations to his Triton that Jim Baldwin advocates (eg. taking out the A-4 and replacing it with an outboard, making v-berth water tight, installing the Norvane).There is a fellow linked on Baldwin's site who installed a Norvane on his Triton and it pretty much sailed him across the Atlantic to Spain.
How did that happen Britton? Lucky you! I am sure there are many sailors out there that set out to counter the weatherhelm effect by moving the mast and could not get it right. Is it possible you can measure and/or take picture of your maststep location for all of our benefit? That will be greatly appreciated.Except for #680 which has been known to sail itself for a couple of hours with the tiller tied off. I am not sure I got the mast step exactly back to the original location so I might have improved it by accident.
Best regards,
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
- Peter
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I have a Navik on my Vega 27. It's good for boats up to about 32'. Although they are no longer made, they quite often come for sale. I paid $600 for mine, complete with spares, and later picked up a spare paddle, vane, and a bucket load of spares for another $200. New spares are still available from the Plastimo dealer in the UK.
My choice for a new vane would be a Pacific Windpilot Light. The only advantage over the Navik is that the paddle will fold up or down while underway. I have to heave-to with mine in order to put the paddle into the water ... not a big job, just one more thing to do.
It steers the boat well on all points of sail, and even when on a beat in heavy winds you can "dial in" some weather helm to help it steer. I've only just discovered how well it steers straight downwind with the main and jib "wing-on-wing". There's definately a learning curve to getting the most out of it.
On day sails, once clear of the shore breezes, I'll set the Navik and enjoy the ride. I use it to tack ... it does a way better job than I do. It's great to kneel in the V-berth with my head up through the hatch and just watch the waves go by while 'Vik does all the work.
Here's a link to a short video (3.7 mb)
The initial cost of the vane is soon forgotten. What you have to live with is it's performance. It's worth waiting a bit to get the right one.
My choice for a new vane would be a Pacific Windpilot Light. The only advantage over the Navik is that the paddle will fold up or down while underway. I have to heave-to with mine in order to put the paddle into the water ... not a big job, just one more thing to do.
It steers the boat well on all points of sail, and even when on a beat in heavy winds you can "dial in" some weather helm to help it steer. I've only just discovered how well it steers straight downwind with the main and jib "wing-on-wing". There's definately a learning curve to getting the most out of it.
On day sails, once clear of the shore breezes, I'll set the Navik and enjoy the ride. I use it to tack ... it does a way better job than I do. It's great to kneel in the V-berth with my head up through the hatch and just watch the waves go by while 'Vik does all the work.
Here's a link to a short video (3.7 mb)
The initial cost of the vane is soon forgotten. What you have to live with is it's performance. It's worth waiting a bit to get the right one.
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- Master of the Arcane
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Well, to establish a position for the mast step I ran a string between the upper shroud chainplates and centered the mast step under the string.Is it possible you can measure and/or take picture of your maststep location for all of our benefit?
That might not work on all Tritons though. I know that most things on Tritons tend to vary (maststeps being just one example) and I suspect the main bulkheads that the chainplates attach to probably vary slightly in positioning too. Its probablly more the luck of the draw than anything else.
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It is true that many boats, including Tritons will pull to weather in certain circumstances, however, the Triton, with proper sails, proper sail trim, not over loaded and proper rigging set up sail very well and without too much weather helm. I am aware that sailing in SF Bay can offers it's challenges, however, with this said, I never once reefed while sailing 346 there and never had too much trouble with weather helm. It is not hard to throw a boat out of balance and Tritons are no exception to the rule. Before installing expensive gadets to the boat I might get to the bottom of the cause of your weather helm issue. Your check book will be helpful from here on out. Hire a diver and have the bottom cleaned or haul the boat and have it cleaned. Set your mast up so that is straight up and down. Tension the jumpers so that they are tight enouph to get a little forward bend in the mast with the back stay off. Tighten the back stay enouph to get the mast straight for and aft. The rear lowers should not be over tightened and while on the lee should just be showing signs of being slack. Install new spectra halyards for main and jib. Bend on a new 107% 8oz. working jib and a new 8oz main. Install a proper ridged vang. Be sure that your main sheet and out haul are in proper working order, if you do not a fine tune on your mainsheet, get one. If you do not have a traveller, install one. Finally, install a mechanical backstay adjuster. Remove all the extra gear from the boat. Empty the water tank in the bow of the boat. Decrease weight as much as possible in the boat and especially in the ends. OK - now gather lunch and one good sailing friend, and go sailing. Your boat should feel like you just spent about eight thousand dollars on it and remarkably the weather helm is almost non existant. A puff comes and you dump the traveller and ease the mainsheet, spilling the air from the sail as the boat stays on course and surges ahead. You smile as you adjust your lines and take in a pinch on the cunningham. The Golden Gate is just ahead and Half Moon Bay is not that far away.
Brian
Jollyboat, Triton #466
Sepi,Triton #346 (1st, Triton)
No Quarter
Jollyboat, Triton #466
Sepi,Triton #346 (1st, Triton)
No Quarter
- Tim
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Moving the mast step an inch or two is unlikely to have any magic effect in and of itself. The problem is more complex than that.
The differences between any two boats are numerous, and looking to one small thing to suddenly greatly affect your own boat's sailing ability is likely to lead to frustration and little gain: there are just too many potential variables. One must work through the basics methodically.
More to the point, it's highly likely that the sail shape, design, and size, along with rig tuning specifics, have far more to do with weather helm on one boat versus another of the same design. On fractionally-rigged Tritons, larger headsails tend to work better in terms of reducing helm, as the boat's sail design originally called for large genoas that were in vogue at the time; similarly, smaller mainsails (reduced foot length or a reef) have a dramatic effect on weather helm reduction.
As has been proven by many Tritons that have successfully self-steered through epic voyages, clearly the boat can be balanced for use with a vane or other means of self-steering--or even just to make hand steering more pleasurable--but it's going to take various tweaking, sail size changes (i.e. reefs, or different headsail sizes, and so forth), rig tuning, and adjustments to the sails to get it there in a given condition. There is always a learning curve associated with wind vane steering on any boat--some more than others, perhaps. Be prepared for it.
The point of this example is that there is rarely a single factor that contributes to your individual boat's sailing characteristics, so look at the whole picture and make incremental adjustments. Another boat with differently-sized and -shaped sails, like Britton's, perhaps, will exhibit wholly different characteristics under sail. I know Britton's sails and many other setups are entirely different than my own; his boat sails entirely differently, clearly.
I think attempting to install and use a wind vane on a boat that one is not yet able to balance successfully under sail in a variety of conditions would be an exercise in frustration. So learn how to balance the boat first, make the changes in setup and sailing approach necessary, and then move forward with the vane. A vane does not a sailor make; a sailor makes the vane.
The differences between any two boats are numerous, and looking to one small thing to suddenly greatly affect your own boat's sailing ability is likely to lead to frustration and little gain: there are just too many potential variables. One must work through the basics methodically.
More to the point, it's highly likely that the sail shape, design, and size, along with rig tuning specifics, have far more to do with weather helm on one boat versus another of the same design. On fractionally-rigged Tritons, larger headsails tend to work better in terms of reducing helm, as the boat's sail design originally called for large genoas that were in vogue at the time; similarly, smaller mainsails (reduced foot length or a reef) have a dramatic effect on weather helm reduction.
As has been proven by many Tritons that have successfully self-steered through epic voyages, clearly the boat can be balanced for use with a vane or other means of self-steering--or even just to make hand steering more pleasurable--but it's going to take various tweaking, sail size changes (i.e. reefs, or different headsail sizes, and so forth), rig tuning, and adjustments to the sails to get it there in a given condition. There is always a learning curve associated with wind vane steering on any boat--some more than others, perhaps. Be prepared for it.
The point of this example is that there is rarely a single factor that contributes to your individual boat's sailing characteristics, so look at the whole picture and make incremental adjustments. Another boat with differently-sized and -shaped sails, like Britton's, perhaps, will exhibit wholly different characteristics under sail. I know Britton's sails and many other setups are entirely different than my own; his boat sails entirely differently, clearly.
I think attempting to install and use a wind vane on a boat that one is not yet able to balance successfully under sail in a variety of conditions would be an exercise in frustration. So learn how to balance the boat first, make the changes in setup and sailing approach necessary, and then move forward with the vane. A vane does not a sailor make; a sailor makes the vane.
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Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
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I should note that Tim is dead on correct with his mentioning the Tritons CCA rule design and headsail sizing. 466 is draped with 165% genoa. I sail in Western Long Island Sound, of which can offer it's breezy days, but is a lamb in comparison to the SF Bay. On 346, I made purpose built Mylar main and jib to sail in the SF Bay. The main was cut very flat, as I did not want to reef - ever and the jib was a stock cut 107% hank on. I was able to handle up to 30 knts of breeze before having to dump the main sheet and head up. As soon as the boat was again relaxed off we would go again. Yes, the sailing was a little crazy at times but for me - - that was what it was all about. 346 had stock Triton interior, was sailed with 4"x4" compression post and was void of any extra gear short of required by law and common sense.
Brian
Jollyboat, Triton #466
Sepi,Triton #346 (1st, Triton)
No Quarter
Jollyboat, Triton #466
Sepi,Triton #346 (1st, Triton)
No Quarter
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Thanks all for the input. I agree with everything said so far and acknowledge that primary reasons for the weatherhelm issue I experience are related to things that are unique to Blossom. For one the main I sail with is at least 10 years old and has a significant belly cannot be adjusted away with outhaul, downhaul, or halyard. Two, I usually use my 105% (the smallest I have) jib. When I switch to my 130% the weatherhelm is significantly better. But I mostly sail with the 130% in winter season when the wind in the SF Bayarea is usually lighter. Finally, I don't want to leave everyone with the impression the weatherhelm issue is a constant issue. Like you would expect it is usually not an issue when the wind is under 20 knots. But if you sail the entire bay you cannot avoid the slot area that usually blows 20~30 knots in spring, summer, or fall.
Back to my original windvane question, how does a vane behave in guts when Tritons start to experience weatherhelm issue? That's what I am trying to find out.
Peter, $600 for a Navik is a great deal. I did not mention Navik because Plastimo no longer makes it. But I do see them once in a while in the secondary market but they don't last very long (on the market that is).
Best regards,
Back to my original windvane question, how does a vane behave in guts when Tritons start to experience weatherhelm issue? That's what I am trying to find out.
Peter, $600 for a Navik is a great deal. I did not mention Navik because Plastimo no longer makes it. But I do see them once in a while in the secondary market but they don't last very long (on the market that is).
Best regards,
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
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Jollyboat,
Thanks for the tips and offer. Unfortunately, a new main (or even used one) is not in the budget anytime soon. I spoke with a local sail maker about recutting the main. He did not think that it will be worth the investment. I guess I will have to live with it a couple of more seasons until I can save up enough to buy a new main.
Best regards,
Ray
Thanks for the tips and offer. Unfortunately, a new main (or even used one) is not in the budget anytime soon. I spoke with a local sail maker about recutting the main. He did not think that it will be worth the investment. I guess I will have to live with it a couple of more seasons until I can save up enough to buy a new main.
Best regards,
Ray
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA