Leading halyards aft

[Ryan]

I am trying to decide if I want to run the main and jib halyards to a cabin top winch on my Hughes 25 project boat. the original setup had an old crank (low tech winch) for the main halyard mounted on the mast, but I don't want to remount the crank, and since I am going to by a halyard winch, I figured I might as well mount it on the cabin top so I don't have to go forward to the mast to adjust the halyards. Can anyone give me pros/cons of this setup or does anyone have pictures of this? I'd like to use one winch for both halyards. Thanks for any advice!

[Tim]

This is a matter of personal choice, I think. One can come up with pros and cons for either mast mounting or cockpit mounting of halyard controls.

I prefer to keep them on the mast, myself. I don't care for the additional clutter and spaghetti in the cockpit, where there is enough mess from control lines in the first place. I do lead frequently-adjusted control lines aft, such as the boom vang, cunningham, and outhaul. I am always tweaking these, but the halyard is pretty much a once-per-sail adjustment. Usually, one can control the fine-tuning of the luff tension with a cunningham or downhaul once the sail is raised.

For me, this means that I already have two jib sheets, mainsheet, and the three mainsail control lines all in the cockpit. This is a significant amount of line to begin with, so I'd rather not have 2 or 3 additional coils hanging around and getting in the way. Again: personal choice. This is what works for me.

One other consideration is reefing: I believe that your halyard and reefing controls (all reefing controls) should be in the same location, whether at the mast or in the cockpit. If you have to go to two places to reef, unless you have permanent crew that you can count on, it just seems wrong. And most reefing systems require a tack hook at the gooseneck...therefore, to me it makes the most sense to keep the halyards there as well.

If you have a roller furling headsail, there's no reason to bring the halyard aft, as you won't be adjusting it often (or ever). Keep the clutter forward. For non furling headsails, it's again a matter of personal choice. But you probably have to go forward anyway to collect the sail in this case.

There's a further argument--one that I agree with in theory although I rarely test myself in rough weather--that one should keep sail controls at the mast since it is critical for one to be comfortable with going forward on deck in all conditions. The argument continues that if one is uncomfortable with going forward in regular conditions, what might happen if going forward is required in less than ideal conditions? This makes sense, and reinforces the fact that sailboats cannot always be sailed only from the comfort and relative safety of the cockpit.

[Jason K]

When I bought the Triton, it had the main and jib halyards led aft. I prefer the lines led to the cockpit and I haven't found the extra lines to be too cumbersome.

I suppose it comes down to the type of sailing you do and the experience of your crew. I often sail with very inexperienced crew and like to have everything within easy reach. Occasionally, I'll go float around solo and then I definitely prefer the ability to reach essentially everything from the cockpit.

It isn't difficult to run your lines aft. I have them run to blocks at the base of the mast, through horizontal guides at the forward cabintop, and finally through clutches at the aft cabin top. I have a small winch mounted on a teak pad just aft of the clutches. I don't have a picture handy, but I'll try to post one when I'm able to put it all back together (soon!).

I don't worry too much about adjusting halyard tension while underway on the Triton. Tim's right - there's rarely much call for that. However, when it comes to raising and lowering the sails, I like to do it from the cockpit.

[CharlieJ]

I'll ring in along with Tim on this one. I prefer my main halyard at the mast. I lead all reefing lines there also. If (when ) I need to reef, I can sit down with my legs wrapped around the mast and do it all from right there. I don't like mainsail halards led aft at all.

Now on a Jib halyard. If you decide to run that aft, then you'll need a down haul rigged on the jib. Cause if you don't, you're STILL gonna have to go forward to douse the jib, even with the halyard aft. Might as well lead IT to the mast also and save a line in the cockpit.

His last point about being comfortable going forward is a valid one also.

It seems to me that the most experienced sailors I have known prefer halyards at the mast. Even with them led aft, you are STILL going to have to go there to pull down the sail and tie it off when it's lowered. There was a thread recently on the Cruising Sailor BB ( the new place for the old Cruising World crowd) about this and the large majority voted for "at the mast"

[A30_John]

I'm with Tim and Charlie - halyards at the mast - for all the same reasons.

Many people lead halyards to the cockpit because they consider it a safety issue - stay in the cockpit where it is "safe." I also consider it a safety issue, but for me the issue is to be able to safely work on deck in a variety of conditions. Reefing at the mast helps build the experience and confidence you'll need to safely go forward to fix problems. Someday when it hits the fan and you find it necessary to go forward to mess with your foresail, you'll be glad you spent the time you did working at the mast (where things are an order of magnitude easier).

My preferred reefing technique in heavy weather is to heave to, move up to the mast, reef, move back to the cockpit and get underway again. It can be done in a few minutes.

[Peter]

Well, I have to jump in here: I believe it depends on the boat.

On a larger boat, such as a Vega, moving forward to the mast is a viable thing to do. I can release the tiller and stroll up to the mast on a nice wide side deck with lots of available hand-holds, do what's needed, and return to the cockpit before the boat has a chance to misbehave. I have none of my lines led aft on this boat, and don't feel the need to.

Under similar conditions on a smaller lighter boat, such as a San Juan 24, getting to the mast can be a chore. Such a boat does not heave-to readily, and will misbehave as soon as the tiller is released, making a trip forward on a narrow side deck with little to hang on to quite exciting. In fact I usually pop up through the fore hatch as long as she's not dunking her nose under. On this boat I have all my lines led aft. About the only time I go forward is to change jibs (hank-on), then I let AutoHelm do the steering.

Just my 1.7 cents worth.

[Tim]

Like so many things, there is more than one right answer here. There are many considerations at hand, and one must make an informed choice based on their own situation and how they foresee using the boat.

Going to the mast isn't always fun, to be sure. It's even less fun to go all the way to the pointy end in marginal conditions. But simply leading halyards aft doesn't necessarily eliminate the need to go forward. There's nothing wrong with leading them aft, but when the need arises to go foward for any reason, one must be prepared for the event too.

And in the specific case of a mainsail, one has to carefully consider the reefing situation, and set up the whole system to allow ease of use and minimal running around. I think this is the core consideration in the decision whether to lead aft or not. Lead them all aft, or lead none aft. Split controls just don't make a lot of sense when it comes to reefing, at least not if one anticipates doing the job alone. So if the halyards come aft, be sure that all other required reefing controls also lead aft, so that the whole job can be accomplished from that one location.

[dasein668]

And in the specific case of a mainsail, one has to carefully consider the reefing situation, and set up the whole system to allow ease of use and minimal running around. I think this is the core consideration in the decision whether to lead aft or not. Lead them all aft, or lead none aft. Split controls just don't make a lot of sense when it comes to reefing, at least not if one anticipates doing the job alone. So if the halyards come aft, be sure that all other required reefing controls also lead aft, so that the whole job can be accomplished from that one location.

And doing so will necessitate using one of the reefing systems that doesn't require hooking a reefing ear to a reefing hook. Not that isn't feasible, but something to keep in mind when thinking about your reefing system.

I like my reefing and halyards at the mast. Control lines all run aft, but that's just a personal preference, as others have said.

[A30_John]

Well, I have to jump in here: I believe it depends on the boat.

Certainly. On this thread, I think the boat in question was a Hughes 25, and the PO already had the lines at the mast. But of course, if a person has a boat of such a size or design that he/she can't manouver safely on the foredeck for sail handling it makes a lot of sense to run eveything aft. And that would by necessity include a system for the reefing ear as Tim and Nathan point out.

[Robert The Gray]

All this is worth way less than a dollar maybe even two cents,


On my triton i have all the main controls lead aft. on the starboard side I have the halyard, the 1st reef clew, and the first reef tack all lead to the same winch just beyond a triple rope clutch. I like having the reef tack be adjustable rather than a hook because of the increased ability to control the sail shape. Kinda a first reef cuningham. I have slides into a groove on my mast and the halyard is not enough to harden it up when beating and bellying up when off the wind.
I wanted to have all the main reefing and halyard controls at the mast but the mast section is old, there was a lot of hardware holes all around the winch location, and my nice boom was set up for the reefing controls lines to be lead down to the deck and aft. So aft they went.
As far as having the lines lead aft not preparing one for trips forward in extreme conditions, couldn't this be said for roller furled jibs? The "danger" of going forward to the front of the boat to douse the jib or change to a smaller sail is eliminated and moved to the "safety of the cockpit". I suppose, each time I dash forward to lower my jib, or figure out how to keep the boat from going through crazy jibes while getting that f***ing genoa down I am training for situations extreme on the foredeck. I would also love to have a nice roller furled %95 jib and a assymetrical spinaker on a retractable bowsprit. Alas, one must work with the boat one has and the nature of the conditions within their home waters, not to mention their wallet. I feel both deliberate training, i.e. practicing with jack line and harness procedures in benovelent conditions, and general experience i.e. just sailing the boat, are vital to safety.

[Tim]

As far as having the lines lead aft not preparing one for trips forward in extreme conditions, couldn't this be said for roller furled jibs?

Yes, absolutely. Sailors are turning into a cushy bunch.

(I love my roller furling, though!)

[The Good Goose]

I lead my halyards aft and I like it. I find it handy in that I can drop the main when I come into the mooring. I like to sail on and off the mooring and this helps when I am single handing. I also drop the jib from the cockpit and it usually lands in a heap on the fordeck and I don't have a downhaul.

I am able to reef the main with only one trip to the mast. I slack the halyard enough to get the hook in( its actually a ring shaped affair so the reef ring doesn't fall out) and then go forward hook it and then tighten the reef line. then I go into the cockpit and winch up the sail. Not ideal but it works. It would be nice to have it all done from the cockpit.

I have eight lines leading into the cockpit all are labled and the lines go into line bags on each bulkhead. Its a pretty manageable system. When we race we drape them in the companionway so they can run faster if need be.

I still sail with hank on sails so I go forward plenty. I like being able to drop all the sails from the cockpit and I do on occasion adjust the jib halyard and rarely the main. Having sailed both types I would definately opt for the cockpit controlls. If I did more cruising I would lead both reef points aft as well. I find when I am singlehanding now I usually spill wind and let the sail flap a bit rather then reef when I should. I know if I had my reefing lines led aft I would reef more often.

The main advantage I see with having the halyards led aft is the ability to drop the sails from the cockpit. The disadvantages are: alot of extra friction I have to use the winch to raise the main , reefing issues, extra clutter in the cockpit, halyards wear out sooner due to rope clutches.

If you minimize clutter by labeling and using line bags, set up your reefing to minimize trips to the mast and can stand the extra friction (more annoying then you would think) as well as lessened halyard life then I think it is well worth running halyards aft. I've never heard of anyone who did it switching them back. I know I never would.

Brock Richardson

[daysailor17]

Since no one else seemed to have mentioned this aspect of having lines led aft, I'll put in my 2cents.

During one blustery afternoon I was lowering the jib on my fathers cutter when the halyard jammed at the masthead with the sail halfway down(another story altogether and hopefully should never happen to a properly led halyard, but none-the-less, sheit always happens on someone else's boat).

The main halyard was run aft to the cockpit, the only way to get the sail all the way down before having flogged itself to pieces was to be hauled aloft under way (which secretly I love-on a sunny day anyway-being a former rigging monkey on a schooner). As I was swinging aloft, the turning block mounted on the base of the Sitka spruce mast let go. It was ruggedly fastened, but the shock loading blew apart the plastic bits within the block. While the pieces went over the side, I cursed aloud dropping about 6 feet until I found the spreaders while promptly filling my pants! The fun was not over as the halyard had a very unfair lead through what was left of the metal bits at the deck. I was very happy, being a rock climber, that I was able to shimmy my way safely to the deck after popping the shackle off the head of the jib. I do not know who was more pumped up, slightly anxious, and embarassed, my friend who was tailing the winch, or my ego.

Hmm, many lessons to be learned in this one, such as, be sure to check and trust your gear before going aloft, use heavy-duty deck hardware, have all lines led fair with or without expecting the possibility of having a problem BEFORE leaving the dock etc etc. But to this day I have always had a solid winch at the mast with the halyards at the mast. I also have learned to sway up halyards using body weight (like the old schoonermen did) because it is fun, good physical activity, and it makes you say "yar..".

[Rachel]

Hi folks,

We've got a Triton here where I work, and the owner would like us to lead the lines aft for him. Since I've always used lines at the mast - and would probably set up a future boat that way - I haven't paid that much attention to how people have done this.

I just now did a few searches (here, National Triton Association, and Ariel/Commander Forum), and while I've found a few photos of various bits of people's methods, I haven't found many, and I'm missing some details. How do you get "over the hump" of the cabin-top, for example?

If anyone has some photos of this to share (or comments), it would be much appreciated. By the way, I'd love to find the hull number of this Triton: It's an EC Triton, with external ballast, the hinged cockpit locker lids, and no cabin liner. Has an Atomic Four (blue, with original generator) that's getting some TLC and modernizing. The whole boat is getting quite a bit of work done; nice to have a classic here in the shop :-)

--- Rachel

[Jason K]

Hi Rachel,

The way I run my halyards aft is to a block at the base of the mast that rests a couple of inches away from the mast at about a 1:00 position. The block is positioned on a bias to provide a clean run to the horizontal fairlead. The fairlead is very close to the edge and it does not chafe against the cabintop. The lines then run to a clutch that is positioned just far enough forward of the cabin top winch to provide a good lead.

I know this lacks detail, but it does show the whole arrangement.


From the fairlead aft. Please ignore the jury rigged vang! That was temporary, I was just checking locations and to see if the bail I already have on the mast was properly positioned. I promise.


This isn't a great photo (I was trying to show the epoxy protecting the core) but the shadow at the bottom is where the cabin top drops off, so it may give you some idea of how close I am to that edge.



I hope this helps a little bit. If you need more detail or measurements, let me know.

[Rachel]

Jason, that's very helpful. Not only the arrangements that I asked about, but also seeing a boat sailing and some open water (sanity saver :-)

Thanks!

--- Rachel

[The Good Goose]

Rachel
My lines are led very similarly to Jasons. I had a tabernacle made and had a angle iron piece welded to it to support my blocks . they go from there to doubled double organizers and then to two 4 gang rope clutches.

I have main, jib , spinnaker halyards and topping lift on one side. on the other I have , spinnaker pole lift, and spinnaker pole downhaul (foreguy), vang and cunningham. Everything is garhauer except for the blocks at the base of the mast and these are a mishmash of what I had laying around. I think cheek bolocks to the side of the mast would work very well also. They would give you a staighter lead to the organizers.

I was worried about the lead to the organizers but it doesn't seem to be an issue. I labled everything which helps when we're racing. If I didn't race I would rig my reefing lines aft and leave the spinnaker controls at the mast. It would be great to be able to reef without leaving the cockpit. If I go on a cruise this year I will probably switch it before I leave.

I still put on cleats at the mast in case something goes wrong. I only have 1 winch which is why my spinnaker controlls are not all together.
I would like to get a winch for the other side so I could have jiob halyard, and spinnaker controlls all on the same side.

Remember when you are locating the clutches to allow for the side of the winch you will be leading the lines to. If you have clutches on both sides of the cabin with winches there is not enough room to locate them symetrically and still have a fair lead to your winches. the clutches need to be shifted Right and the winches left or something like that. i laid everything out on the cabin top and led the lines to the winches to make sure before I drilled my holes.

I was worried about the lines being in the way when I went to the mast to reef. They seem close enough to the mast that it doesn't seem to be a problem. with the boom in the way there is no prediliction to crossing at that point of the boat so that is not an issue either. the foreguy is led to a bullseye on the front of the cabin before it gets to the organizer and it is a major trip hazard. I'm used to it but I always worry when someone new is on the foredeck. It would probably be better led to the side of the cabin at deck level and then to a cam cleat on the side of the cabin next to the cockpit. Thats how iv'e seen alot of them led.

Do whatever you can to reduce friction. I find I usually winch the main up a good part of the way because of the increased friction. I bet if my halyards were led to cheek blocks mounted to the forward side of the mast so the curvature of the mast angled them to the organizers it would reduce alot of friction.

Hope this helps
Brock Richardson

[The Good Goose]

Rachel
My lines are led very similarly to Jasons. I had a tabernacle made and had a angle iron piece welded to it to support my blocks . they go from there to doubled double organizers and then to two 4 gang rope clutches.

I have main, jib , spinnaker halyards and topping lift on one side. on the other I have , spinnaker pole lift, and spinnaker pole downhaul (foreguy), vang and cunningham. Everything is garhauer except for the blocks at the base of the mast and these are a mishmash of what I had laying around. I think cheek bolocks to the side of the mast would work very well also. They would give you a staighter lead to the organizers.

I was worried about the lead to the organizers but it doesn't seem to be an issue. I labled everything which helps when we're racing. If I didn't race I would rig my reefing lines aft and leave the spinnaker controls at the mast. It would be great to be able to reef without leaving the cockpit. If I go on a cruise this year I will probably switch it before I leave.

I still put on cleats at the mast in case something goes wrong. I only have 1 winch which is why my spinnaker controlls are not all together.
I would like to get a winch for the other side so I could have jiob halyard, and spinnaker controlls all on the same side.

Remember when you are locating the clutches to allow for the side of the winch you will be leading the lines to. If you have clutches on both sides of the cabin with winches there is not enough room to locate them symetrically and still have a fair lead to your winches. the clutches need to be shifted Right and the winches left or something like that. i laid everything out on the cabin top and led the lines to the winches to make sure before I drilled my holes.

I was worried about the lines being in the way when I went to the mast to reef. They seem close enough to the mast that it doesn't seem to be a problem. with the boom in the way there is no prediliction to crossing at that point of the boat so that is not an issue either. the foreguy is led to a bullseye on the front of the cabin before it gets to the organizer and it is a major trip hazard. I'm used to it but I always worry when someone new is on the foredeck. It would probably be better led to the side of the cabin at deck level and then to a cam cleat on the side of the cabin next to the cockpit. Thats how iv'e seen alot of them led.

Do whatever you can to reduce friction. I find I usually winch the main up a good part of the way because of the increased friction. I bet if my halyards were led to cheek blocks mounted to the forward side of the mast so the curvature of the mast angled them to the organizers it would reduce alot of friction.

Hope this helps
Brock Richardson

[Robert The Gray]

An innovation that I am about to install on my aft lead halyards is a clam cleat at the mast. I would use the strarboard on one side and the port on the other far enough forward so as to not engage by mistake.

http://www.go2marine.com/g2m/action/GoB ... mc_id=fr1

I can raise the sail at the mast very quickly to hand tight tension, swing the halyard forward to cleat temporarily at the mast. I dash back to the cockpit to get the helm and and pull the slack up through the turning blocks, the deck organisers, and the rope clutches. When enough tension comes on the halyard it uncleats from the clam cleat and I can apply final tension from the cockpit with the cabin top winch behind the clutches.

Hoisting the main is much easier when done from the mast, same with the jib, less friction and the halyards do not have a chance to foul. When single handing I really like being able to douse the sails from the cockpit, as well as control halyard tension and reef to the first point. Hence the aft leading halyards. I hope this modification will lessen my running fore and aft along the side decks when getting under way.

R

[Rachel]

Thanks everyone for the tips - most helpful! I've copied them out for the people who are going to figure out the placement on the Triton, and I'm sure they'll be appreciated.

That's an interesting idea with the clam-cleat, Robert. I'd like to know how that works out in the end.

--- Rachel

PS Wow is the board fast now :-)