Introducing Katie-J

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:52 am

Hello to all
This is Katie-J a Pioneer 9 built in 1962.
She lives in Macau (near Hong Kong) and i just bough her. I got in touch with a former onwer who told me she was originally named Zeeschal (sea shell) and built in Zandhoven.
Until now i thought she was built in the UK by Southern Ocean Shipyards, and i m thinking that the fact the she was built in Holland might make her one of the initial hulls ever produced. I am trying to obtain more info about that subject so i will keep updating on that front also.

She is in good condition for her age, needs some repairs on the outside and a big overhaul/redesign on the interior to accomodate for more tankage, storage and increased liveability.
Tha plan is to configure her as a singlehandler with room for the ocasional family daysail.

I gutted the v berth already (see fotos) and im expecting the compost toilet to arrive to start redesigning around it.
some other projects i can start having a crack at are : turning the bilge into a secondary water tank and, removing the existing 58 year young water tank (under the quarter berth) and replacing it for a integrated one.
To paint the v berth i was reseacrhing and applying Interprotect as a primer followed by interllux Perfection (overkill i know but it will last a lifetime and i dont really like coming back for jobs...) but im open to better options, lets hear them.

Unfortunately there isnt any facility in Macau to haul out, so all the work has to be done on the water. the nearest yard for that is 40 miles and some 12 hours away, in Hong Kong, and being one of the few they like to charge us....

I am a bit confused on how i should proceed to make the bilge integral water tank mainly because of the keel bolts (i will get better fotos later), in terms of what products to use/apply. the process in itself doesnt appear to be over complicated, ie, remove the gelcoat, apply some reinforcing glasscloth; make, waterproof and glass the baffles in, coat everything in epoxy, then brewcote; get the lid with all the sensors, pick ups, etc and one should be good.......after a lot of scrubing, sanding and cursing im sure!

the goal is to keep her sailable and doing whatever i can on the inside leaving the bigger stuff requiring a yard for later and at the bare minimum, (update April 2023: this goal is pretty much one of the most stupid things ive ever said in my life ahahahahaha. the boat hasnt sailed since the beginning of the refit)

Feel free to comment and advice whenever you want/can.

Pedro

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:20 am

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:22 am

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:23 am

markwesti · Post by **markwesti** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:42 pm

Hi Pedro , congratulations on Katie -J , she looks like she has some nice hardware/rigging . Also glad you are on board here . That's a bummer about no yards that are close by , reminded me that I take yards for granted as we basically take our pick around SoCal . You said you will be day sailing and single handing . How long will you be away from fresh water ? I ask this because you want to install extra water tanks . How many gallons is your main water tank ? When we first got our present boat it came with one water tank (80gals.) we use the main tank for washing and to flush the head . We also installed a second 15 gal. water tank that we put filtered water in (Sparklets), we use that for drinking . Back in the day we would be away from fresh water for 2 weeks , going home we had empty tanks . Our main tank is a factory one and is Aluminum . The second tank was made by a co. named Ronco . https://ronco-plastics.com/ . Because you asked , my vote is to install a purchased tank they have pretty much any size you would need . One more bit of advice (and I failed at this) because you are the new caretaker of Katie-J , keep it simple at first , there is plenty of time .
Good luck and keep us posted , Mark .

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:28 am

Hi markwesti

Yeah, do enjoy the availability of those infrastructures, they really make life easier and cheaper!
The main objective further down the line is to cruise the surrounding waters, Hong Kong is right around the corner, the northern tip of the Phillipines is 600 miles away, as is Danang in Vietnam. Thats why im inclined to add tankage (i also like projects and doing stuff). My main water tank must be around 30-40 liter (8-10 galllons), its under the quarter berth and its 58 years old so im defo not drinking from that, it also doesnt make full use of the quarter berth so there is some space to claim, although with a somewhat dificult acess. the idea was to do integral tanks, one in the bilge and another on the quarter berth.
Im thinking (with all the mods i want to make) this is 4/5 year project. the boat has a lot of potential on the inside, but really needs an update for liveability and storage, so yeah like you said there is plenty of time.

Pedro

HinduKush · Post by **HinduKush** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:11 am

Pretty boat looks similar to a Contessa 26.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:45 am

Thanks HinduKush

Yep she does have some great lines. Contessa are good looking ones as well.

Pedro

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:33 pm

I like her lines also. Never seen one before.
Sounds like your projects will not interfere with your plans to use her for day sailing.
A couple questions.
Whats her length, beam, draft and displacement?
And what does her keel look like?
Looks like she might be a sweet sailing boat.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:14 pm

Hello Lloyd

She is 9 mt/29 ft long
Beam is 2.4 mt/7.8 ft
Displacement is 3.3 ton/7200 lb

She has a fin keel and a spade rudder. (its not Katie J but its the exact same model)

Sails good, its a bit tender and wet, but good fun.

About the projects, im trying to order everything up in a way that frees me up for daysailing, but yeah, the interior stuff i want done wont be affecting it. The current global situation is making it harder to source some products and gear, but eventually it will become more normal. For instance my V berth is going to be designed around the composting toilet, (from C-Head, Shorty model)(seems to be a good product, good reviews and its the smallest composting toilet ive come across height wise)(not cheap!!) and the company halted all overseas shipping due to complaints from ppl to whom the product never arrived, so....im kinda stuck on that front for now.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:38 am

V berth

I guess the next thing to do it is to protect all that bare fiberglass that was beneath the lining. For that i will go with interprotect and interlux perfection.
I guess the step after it is to create a watertight anchor locker accessed thru the deck
Im including some photos of the sheerclamp. The wood is completely solid but it doenst feel dry. I am not going to paint over it. In time those 2 bolts( which are actually the standing rigging deck anchor points) will be replaced.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:39 am

v berth

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:41 am

port sheerclamp

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:57 am

Hi everyone

Does anyone knows where i can get BrewCote?
I am looking online but failing to get a place to get it from.

cheers!

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:49 am

You don't need to use Brewcoat. I now use Devoe Bar Rust 233H:

http://www.superfpaint.com/products/Dev ... Epoxy.html

This info is from the bottom of my article on tank construction:

https://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/im ... ank-1.html

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:16 am

some rot discovered
it is going to be a shit fight to get all that rotten ply entrenched what is basically a pour of resin.....

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:23 am

6 hours later...
i´ve used a Makita 9030 belt sander, 40 grit, revved to maximum, got some grooves in but nothing to worry about, a lot of dust even being careful with the vacuum.

next step: going to apply some paint stripper over the keel bolts, then wire brush them with a drill

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:17 am

woke up 2 days ago and thought: that water tank has to go

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:20 am

look at all that space!

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:22 am

58 year old water tank, 1#

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:30 am

Quarter berth hull cleanup (1st round done)

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:33 am

Rotten plywood completely removed.
Will be filling all that space with a thickened epoxy pour

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:45 am

Hi again

Been thinking lately about converting my chainplates to external ones.
This would make inspecting a way more straightforward process and it would mean that any future repairs to the toe rail wouldnt entail messing with the standing rigging. At the same time i would plug those holes in the toe rail, thus minimizing potential water ingress/sheerclamp rotting-dampness.

Anyone out there with experience in this procedure?

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:05 am

What in particular did you want to know about it? On your size boat I would use bronze or 316 stainless a minimum of .25 x 1.5" (up to 2" wide if you prefer) by about 12" long depending on inside reinforcement you use. Bronze is easier to work with but pricey and good bronze bolts to match it may be hard to source. I'd use four 3/8" bolts. You'll lose about 1-2 degrees of windward ability or more if your chainplates are now more than about 3 inches inboard.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:30 am

Hi

Thanks for the input
(and for the tips about the lining products for the water tank. my supplier had a different product from a Taiwanese manufacturer called Rainbow, its a 2 part epoxy product which is half the price of Interline 850, it seems it will work, will let you know later)

The photo shows the location of the stays anchor points.
They sit on top of the toerail. Being bolted thru it and the wooden sheerclamp.
In 2017 one of the anchors failed and the last owner replaced it im thinking crevice corrosion because (he showed me a photo) the break was exactly where the metals were welded

I dont think they are located 3 inches from the outside of the topsides so i guess my windward ablity will not be that affected

so you say 300 mm x 50 mm by 6 mm thick,
3 stainless bolts 10 mm

some reinforcing on the inside with biaxial cloth 45-45, 400 gr/m2 (3 layers?!)
and plenty 5200 on the outside

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:24 am

Yes, those chain plate U-bolts look sketchy. For externals, you'll have to use your own judgment looking at the strength and thickness of the fiberglass hull at the attachment point but in general adding several mm thickness to it should be sufficient. If you thought it wasn't you could extend the reinforcement further with plywood or G10 board glassed in a wider area.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:58 am

That G 10 board its a good idea, i might follow that route and get some layers of biaxial on top of it

What about some backing plates in stainless, 6mm as well, just to bomb proof the system?

Thanks for the tips!

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:42 am

Since the load is in sheer rather than tension and considering the other materials you're using you don't need backing plates. They only add weight, cost and time to the job. Fender washers are adequate.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:50 pm

thanks again Atomvoyager

Today wasnt a good day.
It turns out that the keel bolts are corroded......see photos

The keel is encapsulated which means that either water made its way thru the fiberglass (permeation) or thru a crack, or they corroded from water collecting on the bilge.
Dont really know what to do here....

Also discovered that the main U Bolt chainplate bolts on either side of the bulkhead the separates the main cabin from the V berth (see photos)
Can i cut away the bulkhead to make space for the G10 board/biaxial laminations/Chainplate bolt nut?

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:43 am

If the ballast is encapsulated in the fiberglass hull then we might assume the "keel bolts" are not doing anything and doesn't matter if they are rusted. Can you check further into the ballast construction details of that model boat somewhere?

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:07 am

i got this drawing from the previous owner

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:24 am

the text on the left says:

6 steel pipes are poured into the keel, for the 6 keel bolts dia. 1 ".
The keel bolts dia. 1/2 "and dia. 3/4" are screwed into the keel.
the keel is cast iron

so, there are 6 main keel bolts of 1" diameter whose head is recessed into the bottom of keel
1 x 3/4" bolt on the leading edge of the keel and bolted 45 mm deep
1 x 1/2 " bolt on the trailing edge of the keel and bolted 45 mm deep

6 x 1/2" inch , bolted 35 mm deep into the keel

the bolts on both edges of the keel i believe arent doing much along with the 6 that run parallel to the main ones.

am i really OK leaving the main ones as they are?

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:17 am

When you said "the keel is encapsulated" I guessed you meant the ballast was encapsulated, which means the ballast was inside the fiberglass keel. I don't know what you are referring to that the keel is encapsulated but apparently you have external bolted on ballast to the bottom of the fiberglass keel or the entire keel is bolted on. Either way, rusted keel bolts could be a problem and should be repaired. The photo you attached looks like you have studs and nuts, not bolts. There is some discussion of options at the link below. That forum has more people experienced with this type problem so you might try posting your question there.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f5 ... 03538.html

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:01 am

the previous owner told me the keel is encapsulated and then showed me the drawing, i got confused with it also.
like you said if it is encapsulated why the need for bolts?!

his reason to tell the keel is encapsulated is due to, when on the hard, he couldnt see any separation along the keel, as if everyting was one continuous piece.
But that can be hidden with sealant/fairing compound.

I have already posted in the other forum, im waiting for any feedback

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:34 am

Starboard side cockpit lockers

Having the lockers lid done first enable me to breathe a bit better when the time comes to glass in the walls and baffles of the water tank underneath the quarter berth. fun times ahead !!

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:35 am

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:36 am

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:13 pm

Keel update: (and thoughts)

I was already set to have the keel bolts removed and replaced on the next haul out, and last week i discovered that on the very aft keel bolt there has been some very slow water ingress.

I have been keeping the front section of the bilge totally dry for the last 2 months, but the small aft section still had a bit of water and cleaning products as i was continously trying to clean the best i could.
In the meantime it dried and after a few days a small rusty seepage appeared. This means the keel-hull join failed at that location and that water is making its way into the bilge, it also means that the bolt is probably the most corroded of all.

I am not too worried because the aft and fwd bolts are the smaller ones and are screwed to the iron keel. none of the 6 main bolts- the ones that run the full vertical lenght of the keel- exhibits that problem.

From my previous photos i think its possible to see that at the center of the bilge there is a small channel.
it is also possible to see that the washers are way to small at this point.

Upon replacement of the bolts i would like to install some good, beefy, square washers/plates (say 3 inch/side) but i can only accomplish that if i level the whole bottom.
i was thinking of making a big pour of thickened epoxy with 404 high density filler throughout the whole bottom in order to level everything and practically creating a new bottom where the washers would sit.

any thoughts ot input?

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:05 am

Hard to say without being there but it seems to me you don't need the whole area perfectly level, just the small areas under washers or backing plates. Poured epoxy is relatively brittle so you might want to save materials and weight and add strength against future cracks by pouring in a small amount of resin and brush it around to seal any cracks and then lay one or more layers of fiberglass into it. After it cures put a small amount of thickened epoxy around the bolts, cover with a thin piece of plastic bag and set your washers down in it to squeeze it level. After cured, peel off the plastic and assemble.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:15 am

Chainplates superimposed to G10 board area ( yellow) and biaxial cloth (green)

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:48 am

New design for the centre chainplate ( the one for the long stay, up to the mast top) (6 mm 1 x 19 SWR)

this new design came about because the bulkhead, which separates the V berth from the salon, lies exactly in line with the anchor point.
Originally they went around this by installing a U bolt that bolts on either side of the bulkhead, thru the toerail and sherclamp (i ve put photos on previous post).

To maintain the alignment with the single plate showed on my previous post, i would have to cut the bulkhead out, lay down the backing plates, reinforce with biaxial, drilling and installing the chainplates, then reinserting the piece of the bulkhead and finally glassing everything to the hull.

with this new arrangement i dont have to do any of that, i need only to reinforce with glassing and then drill the holes thru the sheerclamp only, from the side. i would also have 2 x 12 mm bolts, instead of 1 x 12 mm plus 2 x 10 mm

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:52 am

Others have dealt with a bulkhead in the way by offsetting the chainplate a small amount to get bolt clearance. But ideally you want the loads in line with the mast so your v-shaped plate seems to do the job. It has the issues though of needing a very large and heavy plate that requires extra machining. Two 12mm bolts are very strong in shear but I'd consider using three 10-12mm bolts for the lower shrouds and four for the uppers if going with your v-shaped plate because the bolts attachments weak point may be what you are bolting to and the spread rather than the bolts themselves. The goal for strength is to spread the load over a reasonably large area of the boat to dissipate the loads. Anyway, even though non-standard, you probably have enough of a safety factor in your current design to hold up.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:29 am

hi

im not sure if i was clear on the drawings:
The very top hole on either plates is the attachment hole for the turnbuckle
Currently i have 1 x 12mm and 1 x 10 mm for the lower shrouds plates and 2 x 12mm for the V shaped plate.

At this stage i should mention that:
The first bolt in all chain plates (the 12 mm one in the smaller plates, and both the 12 mm on the v shaped) are the ones which are bolted thru the hull and sheerclamp.
I dont know the thickness of the hull but lets assume 10mm, i say the sheerclamp is at least another 30 mm, so we have already 40 mm of material to bite on. (i will laminate more biaxial around the sheerclamp coming down to the hull so that it anchors and disperses the load at the sheerclamp thru the topsides)
The second and lower bolt on the small plates are only going to bolt thru the hull and 6 mm of G10 that i will laminate, plus 2 layers of biaxial

If i understood you correctly, you advise:

3 x 10mm bolts for the lower shrouds plates
4 x 10 mm for the v shaped plate (making sure i avoid the bulkhead obvisously)

did i understand correctly?

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:30 am

Yes your drawing was obvious and I was not discussing the turnbuckle attachment holes and yes using three bolts through the lowers into hull or bulwarks and four holes for upper shrouds was my suggestion to spread the loads better into the hull. Since I'm not an engineer or naval architect, it's just a partially informed recommendation as a rigger so take it for what it's worth and use your own judgement.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:46 am

cool, glad i was getting it right

In the mean time i redesigned the chain plates:
the smaller ones were converted to a T shape, incorporating the 3 x 10 mm bolts
the V shaped one now accomodates 4 x 10 mm bolts

The circles you see are:
yellow= M10 bolt hole
green= M10 bolt head diameter
red= M10 washer diameter

YouTube · Post by **atomvoyager** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:19 am

I assumed you would place the extra bolts below the others so as to keep the lowers a straight piece and spread the loads out further on the hull and make all of them a more conventional easier to machine shape from commonly available stock flat bar but maybe you have your reasons for placing them horizontally such as limited vertical clearance. Unless you have access to the wide stock and an affordable plasma cutter then machining complex shapes from stainless is difficult. Also, I don't see a need for washers on the outside, it just adds one more potentially slightly dissimilar metal to react with the bolt and the chainplate to streak rust over time. Not sure if the bolt head diameter represents a countersunk hole but you can just use a standard hex head for less machining.

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:10 am

the washers were displayed so i could reference their clearance on the inside, which is were i plan to use them.
the bolt head diameter refers to a normal hex bolt like you mentioned. those are the ones i plan to use

the reason why im trying to get them inline and not vertically is an aesthetic one, this way i keep everthing streamlined and neat. it also keeps me from drilling holes further down on the topsides. by eliminating those added holes i can also forego the lamination of G10 which entails more work.
This way i need only to reinforce the areas with more layers of biaxial cloth.

the reason why im not concerned about forces distribution is the fact that, untill now all those forces have been applied in the exact same place althought in a different direction. so far the rigging is pulling straight up vertically from the sheerclamp.
with the new arrangement it will pull horizontally, in shearing mode like you mentioned previously.

the wood is sound. and i will add the biaxial reinforcement over a larger horizontal area to span a greater length.

My idea for the bolt holes is to drill them to 12 mm, then plug everything with thickened epoxy.
Then drill them to 10 mm, this way even if water gets in it will not affect the wood.

I might change my mind if this design proves to be over the top costly tough!

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:16 pm

Aft deck drain removal

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:18 pm

scupper sheared right off as soon as i applied some force

pmnfernando · Post by **pmnfernando** » Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:19 pm

hole left on deck after removal of scupper base