Flaky peeling paint

[Sailor Simon]

The boat is a P.Rhodes Swiftsure 33. To preface, I know I've read about this exact problem sometime before, perhaps in this forum... The insides of the boat are painted with, what appears to be a whitewash type feel/flaky texture paint. Occassionally I'll see a bit as I'm poking around with my repairs and I can hook it out, or off with a finger nail. The former owner told me about this concern, and I'm wondering if I have to ... well I'm wondering which direction to proceed in.

I had considered a plastic, wire brush attachement on a drill, as I've had great results peeling off paint that has become corrupted( perhaps by condensation, 50 years of freeze thaw cycles?...) Maybe this would loosen a great deal of substandard paint? Perhaps sand all available or suspect surfaces with a random orbital sander?

Suggestions please. Sailor Simon

[Rachel]

Sailor Simon,

Presuming you have the "original" problem (i.e. I can't tell from here that someone hasn't changed your boat), then it's endemic in the DeVries-Lentsch built fiberglass Seafarers. I've seen the same thing on the Swiftsures, Rangers, and Meridians. As you have probably figured out, the coach house is simply "one" layer of fiberglass (i.e. not cored and no liner), and it's like they put some kind of plastery compound on the inside to fill the weave of the fiberglass, and then painted over it. Both the paint, and to some extent the "plaster," tend to peel and flake.

The only way to really take care of it, to my mind, is to scrape/sand/grind it off anything that is not sound, re-fair (probably with some kind of thickened epoxy), and then re-finish. I have seen where people did something like put vinyl over it (picture a car headliner or a convertible top), but I've never seen a version of that that I would really like, myself.

As far as what to use: I think if you start with too fine a grit/sandpaper, you might tend to flatten down some areas that you really would want to be removing. I've had that happen and it makes things look okay but then you can really lift them right off with a scraper. So I would vote for some combination of scraping, and then experimenting with other, more aggressive sanding or grinding (being careful not to mar things with big "dishes").

Say, any photos of your boat to share?

Rachel

[Paulus]

I totaly agree with Rachel - what's happening is that the underlying layer is failing, allowing the paint to lift. Any fix that does not remove the failing layer is just a delay for a future, final, fix.

The problem with this situation is that often the compromise is not uniform - there will be areas where the underlyer is still somewhat good, and others where it is just flaking off. I have something similar on the exterior of the cabin - clearly some sort of filler was used to even/smoothen the surface before the final topside paint was applied. This filler is now failing in certain areas and the paint is flaking off in chips.

I feel your pain.

[Vark]

I did a 7 year restoration on a Swiftsure 33 and I assure you paint will not stick to the cabin ceiling because that red/pinkish stuff will flake and flake. Grinding it off is almost impossible but maybe sand blasting will work. You're going to have to stiffen the cabin roof at some point to stop it from oil canning as I did with laminated deck beams through bolted after which I recommend incorporating some sort of vinyl ceiling system or cover it with wood paneling or other laminate. Paint will craze in no time, attract mold and peel.
I epoxy coated my ceiling before painting and it still crazed due to freeze / thaw / damp / dry / expand / contract cycles.

[Rachel]

Welcome to the forum, Vark! Any photos of your Swiftsure? They sure are pretty boats :)

Wouldn't it be interesting to know what they used to fair that overhead originally (not that we would want to emulate it!). Clearly some paint-repulsive compound. Now if we could just paint that onto surfaces we are trying to strip...

Charlie J here (and his partner Laura) restored a 1961 Meridian, which is a 25-footer in the same "family" as the Swiftsure, and also built at G. DeVries Lentsch/Amsterdam shipyard/plastics division in Vianen-on-Lek in the same time frame (presuming your Swiftsure was built there). Their overhead had the same peeling paint/fairing compound as I have seen on Swiftsures and Meridians.

They sanded/ground it down, filled where needed with thickened epoxy (microballoons, I believe), and then painted with latex acrylic enamel. I was on their boat last fall (which is I think about 5 years since they restored her) and I did not see any remarkable peeling. So perhaps it can be done.

I say "perhaps" because they have been mostly in warm humid climates, with some cold weather but not prolonged freeze/thaws. That said, their boat is now overwintering in North Carolina, where it has been below freezing plenty this year, so it will be interesting to see how it fares.

The Meridian also has an un-cored cabintop, although of course it is much less expansive so in their case they did not do any reinforcing over the general field areas that I know of.

Here is a photo of CJ and Laura's boat, Tehani "before" (clearly with additional paint on top of the original peeling "plaster"). She was slated for the chainsaws the next day:

And one "after." It still looks remarkably like this five years (and a year's active cruising) later:

Here is one of the forecabin "during" that shows the new paint:

[Jeremy]

I guess I should count myself lucky. My Meridian has the open weave, without the plastery compound. Although it is a Dutch built boat, the builder was Royal Netherlands Aircraft Factories (a successor to DeVries-Lentsch?)

[Rachel]

Hi Jeremy,

What year or hull number is your Meridian?

Here is what I "know" about it (as you can tell, it's not for sure):

Basically, DeVries-Lentsch, who were an old-line builder in Europe, decided to get into the wonderful new world of plastics, and so built a special yard in Vianen-an-Lek to do so (hence, Amsterdam Shipyard/Plastics division of DVL). Supposedly they consulted or worked with Fokker/Royal Netherlands Aircraft, who were already experienced in plastics (i.e. fiberglass) for building aircraft. Fokker/RNA guided them in the process as they got going.

But then I've also heard/read other things about the relationship between the two. Such as Fokker built the hulls for the DVL boats, or that the later RNA/Fokker "builder" connection was more of a "builder" marketing relationship just like they had with Seafarer in the US. Meaning they were all built at DVL but would have had RNA on the builder's plate like the US-imported boats had Seafarer. It also seems that that Fokker eventually took over, when they built the Commodore Swiftsure, later on.

You can read a bit more here, from the swiftsure perspective - this is a cached page as the main site is not available from what I can tell. I'm not sure they are exactly right on their Meridian production numbers though.

http://tinyurl.com/6cm9tj7

So, I wonder if your boat is a later model? Do you have a builder's plate, year, or hull number?

There were some noticeable differences in the later "Fokker" Swiftsures, such as more "silver" than bronze, more squared off corners on the ports, etc. But then too, the Swiftsure had a slight redesign as well when it became the Commodore model.

But all that said... just plain roving weave on the overhead? That sounds a bit unusual. It makes me wonder if someone else removed the fairing "plaster" at one point in time. Note that all of these boats that I've seen DO have the exposed roving (weave) on the hull sides, in lockers, under the side decks, etc. Just not on the overhead and cabin sides above the deck line; there it is faired.

Now I'm really curious about your boat, and where it was built. I hope you have more info!
By the way, here is a photo of a DVL built Meridian's builder's plate. They were on the forward face of the bit of cockpit coaming that goes across the after end of the cockpit.

builder's plate meridian 9 close.jpg (25.38 KiB) Viewed 4579 times

[Jeremy]

Mine is Hull 112, built in '63. Here's my builder's plate (unfortunately not bronze)



The few photos I have readily available are here (http://gallery.me.com/jandj#100035), as she appeared the when I bought her.

Though the photo's not great, ou can see that the texture of the overhead is roughly the same as on the hull sides (made more pronounced by the mildew!).



I'd like to fair and paint the interior, but given the other more pressing matters on this year's tick list, that may have to wait until next year's haulout.

[Rachel]

Just thought I would add a couple of things I dug up in my files.

Here is a copy of a flyer from the 1963 International Boat Show, showing the Meridian, Tripp-Lentsch 29, and Swiftsure. It's a bit hard to read but at the bottom it says "Fokker DeVries Lentsch trading company."

I know that as late as 1965 or maybe 1966 (I'll have to look up the date) the TL-29's were being built at Vianen-on-Lek by DVL. That's because I have a friend who bought the last one, hull #50, brand new and picked it up there! Now I don't know if Meridians were being built at DVL that late, but from this it does seem that they were in 1963 at least. Actually, now that I think about it more, I remember thinking that all the Meridians up until Seafarer moved production to the US (1965) were built at DVL, but I suppose there could have been some boats for the Dutch market that were built later? Say maybe if your boat was imported later by a private owner?

Here is a photo showing the DVL building at Vianen/Amsterdam, with Swiftsures floating outside and being finished up:

Inside (don't even think about the lack of safety equipment... sheez):


Somewhere I have a photo of a line of Meridians being built inside the building, but I can't find it just at the moment.

Hopefully I have not bored everyone to death now (boat nerdery alert).

[Rachel]

Hmm, interesting (our posts crossed).

I would feel pretty confident in saying that's a replacement builder's plate; unfortunately many of them were lost/taken. They were in that same place though. Would be interesting to see if there was any evidence underneath that one.

I would have thought that a 1963 Meridian made for Seafarer was made at DeVries Lentsch, because I thought Seafarer had them produced there up until they moved production over the the US in 1965, but I don't know for sure. The numbering could fit, as I know #48 was built at DVL in 1962, and they were kind of cranking them out right around then (given that I think #11 was built in '61).

The companionway stairs in yours are different, but they might have been changed as the originals were a slightly awkward molded fiberglass set (strange riser heights). Too, the "plaster" could have been removed. I do see that you have the bare roving texture on the overhead.

[Edited to add: Oh, breaking news... I was just looking through some more photos I have and lookee here - this is "Flambe," #129 --- and it has the same blue galley modules and wooden companionway stairs. Sooooo... maybe there was some cross-pollination going on. If I find anything else interesting in my snooping around.... well maybe at that point we should start another thread so we don't totally hijack Sailor Simon's]

Flambe #129:

Ooh, I love a mystery....

[Jeremy]

Thanks, Rachel. Very interesting. I am continually amazed at the depth of your plastic classic knowledge, and the extent of your files!

[Tim]

I am continually amazed at ... the extent of your files!

She's the J. Edgar Hoover of plastic classics. :<)

[Vark]

Thanks for the greeting Rachel,
I've done some work on a friends Meridian and found the method of construction similar to my Swiftsure. Most of the bronze hardware is just a smaller version. It also suffers the same problems notably the hull / deck joint where water seeps in the bolt holes and gets trapped, eventually coming through the fiber glass to the inside causing the paint to bubble.

I'm unable to post pictures, evidently my picture files are too large to post, does anyone know how to reduce their size ?

Thanks, Vark

[Rachel]

Vark,

There are a few different ways to reduce photo sizes.... where are yours coming from? On your hard drive or a certain photo hosting site or ? It would be great to see them!

On the Meridian hull/deck joint.... now that's interesting. The hull and deck are (as you say) glassed together, but then... what fasteners do you speak of? The reason I say that is, okay, I see what you are saying for something like the Tripp-Lentsch 29 (also built at DVL same time period), or (I presume) the Swiftsure, because of the way the toerail is fastened*, but the Meridians I've seen are completely different, and like the Ranger. They have a molded in vertical "fin" the protrudes onto the deck about 1-1/2" and then to fasten the toerail, screws go sideways through that and into the toerail --- thus never touching the "real" deck at all.

*For those who aren't familiar with it but who have made popcorn and are following along, the way the TL-29 (and I think the Swiftsure?) are put together is that they attached the toerail to the deck with fasteners (wood screws, I think) coming up from underneath, and then glassed the hull and deck together. So there are no fasteners penetrating into the boat on the hull/deck/toerail joint, except where you have the genoa track sitting on top of the toerail and being bolted right through. I have seen a couple of TL-29s where the toerail was later bolted - in both cases the rail had been replaced due to collision/damage. I've also seen a few small salt trails where I can see what Vark is saying in that the screw heads have seemingly started to wear through slightly in someplace like a cockpit locker where the raw joint is exposed. (What I don't know is the exact order of it, and if there were any hull deck joint layers put on first, then the screws, then more, or what - not that it matters probably). I think, but don't know, that the Swiftsure is put together this same way, like the TL-29, vs. the molded "fin" attachment of the (some?) Meridians and Rangers.

Here is a photo of "the fin" on a Meridian from the outside (with the toerail removed) (#11 I think or at least 1961). You can see how the toerail is fastened from the side, so no fasteners go into the deck in the usual way.

From the inside:

Here you can see both sides with the wooden toerail on:

Now, if there were Meridians built somewhere else (like Jeremy's?), did they have a different arrangement? The ones I've noticed always had "the fin" though, so I'm not sure where the screws are coming from on this design. But of course I would love to know! :D

It's not super easy to make out, but the Ranger here also has "the fin" for the toerail fasteners (#152):

And just to bring it back to Swiftsures (on topic, oh yes), here is how (at least the ones I have seen which is not that many) look --- no fin, and I believe, as you note Vark, that the toerail is fastened "blind" up from below under the hull deck joint (#21):

I have some photos that show the TL-29 where it's fastened up from underneath, but not on this computer.

I always thought "the fin" was a pretty sweet way to attach the toerail. It does block the view of the wood slightly on the inside, but then too you have a little fiberglass waterway instead of deck water just sitting at that deck/toerail joint and trying to get the varnish to peel.

[Vark]

Rachel,
It's been a while since I worked on the Meridian but I believe it was an early model because it had a wooden mast and boom.
I was referring to the toe rail fasteners, as you mentioned, they are attached BEFORE the deck and hull are glassed together. Water works its way down those fasteners from beneath the toe rail but has no where to go so it ends up going through the glass, bubbling the paint both on the inside and outside of the hull / deck joint.

I discovered how to reduce the size of my pictures, here's one for now, others will follow.

I went shopping for a Triton, which I love but came across a Swiftsure and couldn't resist its beauty.

[Rachel]

Vark,

Very pretty! More, more! :)

Interesting about the Meridian. I would love to know more about that as I have never seen or heard of one without the molded in fin" for fastening the toerail. And with "the fin," no fasteners penetrate the deck at all to fasten it -- they only go horizontally through the fin section.

All of the DVL/Dutch built Meridans (and Rangers) that I know of came with wooden spars, although many have changed to aluminum with later owners over the years. Sad, as even the original Meridian mast, which was a "cheaper" box sectioned mast (Swiftsure was round), was made with four pieces of clear, full-length spruce! Can you imagine that now on a budget, bottom-of-the-line model? I've often wondered where it came from, as I can't imagine too many trees like that would have been growing in The Netherlands.

Back to the toerail though: All of the Swiftsures and TL-29's that I have seen do have the fastening method you are describing, where the toerail is fastened "blind" through the deck from below. Just not the Meridians (or Rangers, but I have not seen as many of those), to my knowledge. I sure would like to see the one you worked on.

I wonder if it's possible that on a certain Meridian some customer asked to have the fin cut off (it was molded in) and the toerail fastened like the larger, "better" models?

That said, all of the molds and etc. were changed when Seafarer moved production to the US in 1965. In fact I'm not sure they even brought the molds over, but may instead have made new ones. On those Meridians (which grew longer and wider) I have no idea how they fastened the toerail (but then I don't think those had wooden spars).

I'm sure if you care to start a thread on your Swiftsure, we would all love to see more of her. I know I would!

Rachel

[Vark]

Rachel,
unfortunately I don't quite know what happened to that particular Meridian, I heard it changed owners and the new one was sailing it from R.I. to Florida.

I was out sailing with a friend on his 1962 Rhode's Chesapeake when his mast distorted and bent just below the spreaders. He took it down, brought it home, opened it up and literally glued and screwed a pressure treated 2x4 at the bend, put it all back together and was sailing again in no time. That is the ultimate beauty of a cheap box mast !

Don't quote me on this but I think the spruce they used came from Scandinavia though it may have come from Canada or the U.S.
Aside from the mast and cabin sole, my Swiftsure has all Honduras mahogany trim which I prefer over teak, I'm amazed how well it has held up over 50 years as I only had to replace a small section (12") of toe rail in the stern. I believe much if not all the bronze hardware including the winches (which will undoubtedly out last civilization because they're so overbuilt) was made in the U.S. by Merriman Brothers. So these boats were sourced far and wide.

At your suggestion I hope to start a thread on my Swiftsure soon, thanks for the encouragement.

Vark