Dan's rebuild with electric propulsion

[Rachel]

In the auto body business the first question we asked was "Did you ever use any Armor all".

Another sneaky use of silicone. Argh!

[Hirilondë]

Better to find out "Now" than as you put the first coat of paint on. In the auto body business the first question we asked was "Did you ever use any Armor all".

So Armor All is the silicone of the auto industry?

There are so many short cut products that do more damage than good. Another is Lemon Pledge and other waxy furniture cleaner/duster sprays. I have heard varnishers curse more than once after an interior coat went fish scale due to the owner using such products to delay the varnishing that needed to be done several years ago.

[Rachel]

Yes, Armorall contains silicone. (sigh)

[Skipper Dan]

Almost done with the rudder. I had to order a 1" round bit for the shaft bedding. It sure screams for some kind of tongue oil. I am debating on cutting a 3" wide dado by the hinges to the aft edge and laying in some fiberglass. I have to drill the shaft pin holes and two screws yet.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

I was out to the airport this evening finishing up on the back of the port keel. What I found was not good. Some of the fiberglass that was put on by some repair was peeling off. I peeled off what I could and kept grinding away. Yep another layer pealed off that was under the first one. This one had some crystallization on it. I am assuming salt. By the time I got done I could see the crack that had formed in the bottom. I have about 6" more to get to the lead ballast. Then I can reinforce the complete false keel. I think I have ground away 10 to 20 lbs of filler by now. The best thing is it has not been in the water for a while so everything is bone dry.

Dan

[Rachel]

Well darnit. But at least you are getting to the bottom ;) of things. And you'll know you have it done right.

Any photos of the gore so that we can gawk along with you?

[Skipper Dan]

I'll take a camera tomorrow. I get so dusty that I can just barely see getting home. I hate fiberglass, I don't know why I bought a boat! :-)

Dan

[Rachel]

I understand. Often the last thing on your mind is taking out a (possibly pristine) camera and taking photos, when you are in the thick of it.

Some people love the work; others just want a boat they know is done right, and realize that sometimes doing it themselves is the best (or only) option. Depending on circumstances, of course.

[Skipper Dan]

For some reason it looks even worse on camera! Oh well, it should be better than new by tomorrow.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

After cleaning up the rudder shaft and removing the pins (They were 3/8") I decided to just go with a new shaft. Nitronic 50 SS is $140.00 and 630 aluminum bronze is $130.00. I found a machinist who will cut the key way in the SS for $50.00. I would have to drill the holes and have someone else bend it. Not that much of a cost to bend. I can do all the machining to the Brass myself.

Worth it to go with the SS? How much better is the bronze at keeping the marine growth off?

By the way it is my Birthday today, 52. So no work for me today. I am spending it with the grandkids.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

I went instead with just 316 SS shaft. The fabricator that does all the dairy stuff here says that he has 316 in a salt brine and it does fine. Brought the price down to $85.00 to my door. Now I might as well have them weld on a couple of tabs to secure it rather than the holes and pins.

I'll have to change the boat name to "Hurricane Danny" :-)

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

Well I took some leading edge tape from my airplane stock 3" wide. I formed it around the bottom of the keel about like you would on the leading edge of a wing. Drilled two holes in the side and poured thickened epoxy until it was level with the holes or there about. This morning I went back out and removed the tape. I got a nice formed bottom with the crack filled. It really looks strong now. I will still have to layer fiberglass and epoxy over that.

On the top side I decided to not put all those epoxy plates under everything. I think it will look too cluttered. Plus it would have kept the water from running all the way back to drain. I am going to use them as backers on the inside. If I do anything I will just paint some epoxy where each part goes and build it up just a fraction. Each hole has already been drilled oversize and filled with epoxy.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

I am almost done with the false keel. Three layers of Carbon fiber, and two more regular fiberglass. I only have the fairing layer to go. It should be as strong as the rest of the keel now.

Dan

[Rachel]

Hi Dan,

I notice you are using carbon fiber a fair bit. Like for the mast beam and the keel. Can you explain some of the advantages and disadvantages of it? I only "know" (from the ether, not from actual fact, mind you!) that it is strong for its weight and that it is relatively expensive. I wouldn't mind hearing a bit more about your choice to use it, if you don't mind.

Thank you,
Rachel

[Skipper Dan]

This is my first "First hand" experience with it. It gets used a lot in the experimental airplane arena. The reason I started with it on this project is everyone with a Triton was putting either SS or aluminum along side their mast beam. Although this may work it is not optimum as the attachments are attached with bolts that take up the force. Carbon fiber wrapped around the beam becomes part of the beam. Having less weight up high does not hurt either. On the keel same thing. I have heard that some use steel to bridge the gap from the ballast to the rudder post. Carbon fiber is just as strong yet becomes part of the boat. Plus I had some left over. Once you have worked with carbon fiber it would be hard to go back to fiberglass. It is much nice r to lay down. The only drawback I see is it is more brittle. I have heard that this is not really a concern from Jamestown Distributors. I did not think it was that expensive. I was thinking about using some Kevlar for the front sides for impact resistance. Maybe on the next project. One of the other things you have to watch out for is contact with aluminum. If it contacts you have to have a layer of fiberglass over it to give a barrier between the two.

Dan

[Tim]

...everyone with a Triton was putting either SS or aluminum along side their mast beam.

Not everyone... ;<)

I for one have never thought the metal plate was a good or attractive way to deal with the mast beam either. A laminated wood beam is strong, light, and beautiful.

[bcooke]

Although this may work it is not optimum as the attachments are attached with bolts that take up the force.

Actually, most of the times, this is the case. Those strong looking vertical members on the majority of Tritons don't usually contact the hull and it is the bolts through the mast beam that transfer the load to the main bulkhead. If the vertical members did contact the hull then they would be point loading a small area which wouldn't be very good. I would guess the vertical members add some stiffness to the bulkhead but I don't know how important that is.

I wouldn't bother with Kevlar. Its a bear to wet out properly using the methods most of us here are familiar with.. Any gains in impact resistance from using Kevlar would be more than offset by inferior resin saturation levels.

Rachel: Carbon fiber is lighter and achieves equivalent strength with fewer layers. It is also more prone to shatter. i.e. don't use your nice carbon fiber paddle to shove off the rocks. Fiberglass bends more too which is sometimes a nice feature, sometimes not. In rebuilding 50 year old poorly laminated fiberglass boats using one over the other probably doesn't matter. Use whatever suits you. Anything you do is bound to be far better than the original which has already been proven to be more than adequate in most situations. Common faults in these boats are rarely attributed to the original laminating.

I am with Tim in my praise of a nice wooden beam.. I wouldn't do it any other way. Replacing the beam is really quite an easy project. Remove the screws, remove some tabbing, and the beam drops out ready to be used as a pattern for a new beam. Just take a good look at how the original beam fits. In most cases they don't fit well at all and could use some improvement in the shaping. Then again, 50 years and still (mostly) doing their job.

[Rachel]

That's a really good general point to keep in mind, Britton. It is fairly easy to improve upon the original build of most of our plastic classics by just using today's "decent" materials (e.g. biax/epoxy) and a modicum of forethought and care. And yet the originals did last up till now (granted some beams and etc. are now giving up the ghost, but it is 40 years later and many were rode hard and put away wet).

[Skipper Dan]

The reason I put the carbon fiber on the beam was because I plan on using a little padding and leather to cover it. So the Oak would not show anyway. It is a nice new laminated oak beam. I left the uprights exposed to show the beauty of the wood. I plan on sailing this boat over oceans so I was looking more for brawn than looks. From everything I read this was a weak point on boats that did not have a keel stepped mast. I have a lot of stuff that I have left over from airplanes and I look for ways to utilize them. I have 3 or 4 hides of leather.

The bolts I was talking about were the bolts that hold the steel or aluminum plates to the beam. The uprights should sit on the keel. They are bolted to a bulkhead that is attached to the keel. The whole assembly should move as one or not move as one. You would be asking a lot of the plywood around the three bolts that hold the upright on if all the force was on that area. The key I think is no movement. once you have some pounding now it acts as a hammer. Then it will cause problems with the keel.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

In case anyone is wondering how well you can cut aluminum with a table saw. I cut this chunk today. It used to be round. The last owner cut off the mast 2" and had it made up to raise the mast back up. The mast base fits into it the same as it would the lower base. I cut two flat sides so I could weld on a couple of aluminum plates for a saddle. First I epoxied the round base to a straight board then set my fence to cut one side. One turn of the wheel at a time. I then took the board off and turned it to cut the other side. I did not use any special blade only the carbon tipped blade I had been using. No load noises and cut just as easy if not better than tough oak.

My plan now is to make an oak piece that will straddle the mast about 4" up. Cut curved on the inside and epoxied or 5200 to the mast. Drill a hole through it for the bolt. I will cut a slot in the saddle pieces so the mast can be raised and set just like it always was.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

All my LED lights came in today. $100.00 for all the lights on the boat inside and out. Never have to change a bulb again. Less watts than one 15 watt incandescent. Well I'm not sure about that but I think it is close. I still should not have any trouble running the battery down because I want a little light. The stern light was the hardest because it had to go out sideways so I needed a tower bulb. I got a few stick up push on lights for the V berth because that is just going to be storage. The cabin lights are new solid brass that the previous owner bought bless his heart.

Dan

[Chris Campbell]

It really is great that LED refits can be done that reasonably - where did you order them from?

[Skipper Dan]

www.superbrightleds.com it took a bit to figure out what ones to get. They don't come right out and tell you which ones. The Stern light was 3 times the money and I think I could have went with a cheaper one but I was not sure so for $10.00 more I just got the tower. Here's what I got.

1) BA15 24-LED bulb narrow 1156-W24 (Mast light shining down)
2) BA9s-xHP612v 6 High power LED CWHP6 (One for the top of the mast light assembly, masthead light) and (One for the top of the mast Anchor light).
1) 1142-x18-T Tower bulb 1142-CW18-T (Stern light) I think I could have gotten by with a BA15 12-LED in white and saved $10.00
1) BA15 12-LED wide green
1) BA15 12-LED wide red
3) E27-W24-12v wide (Cabin lights)
3) LED WW6- Bronze stick up lights (Forward compartment, hanging locker, Night light)
1) AM series miniature Accent light. Just wanted to try it out littler than your little finger. I figured a good leave on night light. I may get one in red $4.95.

Nothing special was needed they all installed as any other bulb would.

Dan

[Figment]

Do you need any kind of lens or cover over the red and green running lights?

[Rachel]

I was wondering that too, Figment. Also (and I say this with no great knowledge of the way LED bulbs "scatter" their light), will the green light shine forward enough? It looks like it might be a bit meager due to the base of the bulb, but maybe that all "disappears" when it's lit up?

Rachel

[Skipper Dan]

Because the LED shine out the end more than out to the side you will get more than enough out of the sidelights. That's why I had to go with the tower bulb for the Stern because out the end just went up not out. You only need a clear cover or colored the same color as the bulb.

Dan

[Rachel]

Because the LED shine out the end more than out to the side you will get more than enough out of the sidelights.
Dan

I think you're saying that they shine more out the "end" (i.e tip) of the bulbs, right? What I was wondering was if you would get the necessary forward "shine" since the sides/base of the bulb cluster will be pointing forward and not the tips.

Rachel

[Skipper Dan]

You do get light also forward I think the angle was 100 deg. You could also get a motorcycle bulb that is sideways points forward.

Dan

[Rachel]

Well, as long as they meet the requirements, you are good to go. I just wasn't sure by looking at them if they would illuminate the required sector with the required intensity.

Edited to add a summary:

Sidelights that meet the rules are designed to cover an arc of the horizon, or sector, of 112.5 degrees. Intensities are required to attain a visible range of 1 mile for vessels less than 12 meters (39.4 ft.).

Sidelight fixtures must be installed parallel with the fore and aft centerline of the vessel and arranged to show an unbroken light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam, a total sector arc of 112.5 degrees.

Sidelights that are installed in the contour of the bow without providing a mounting surface parallel with the fore and aft center-line of the vessel are not in compliance with the Inland or International Navigation Rules. Depending on the breadth of the vessel near the bow and how far aft from the vessel's stem the lights are mounted, this shift can be more than 20 degrees in some cases. Installing the fixtures too far aft of the vessel's stem may result in the sidelights not being visible from a position dead ahead.

Another factor in proper installation of sidelights is that they must maintain their required minimum intensity in a vertical sector from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal. They must also maintain at least 60 percent of their minimum required intensity from 7.5 degrees above to 7.5 degrees below the horizontal. Installing flush mounted sidelights, designed to be mounted to a vertical surface in the hull contour, without providing a mounting surface tooled to be vertical, shifts the vertical coverage sector. This also results in a noncompliance with the Inland or International Navigation Rules.

Additionally, most of these flush mounted sidelights are installed below the vessel's rub rail. International Navigation Rules require that sidelights be installed above the uppermost continuous deck. Therefore this configuration would not be in compliance with International Navigation Rules.

[Skipper Dan]

A lot has been happening. I had to get the boat in the water before it freezes so I am headed to the Mississippi in a day or two I have my new rudder installed and bottom paint on. Will just have to do the rest on the way. Not much for internet connection at the moment. I will try and keep in touch.

Dan

[Skipper Dan]

I am on the Mississippi, so far LaCrosse WI to Dubuque IA. av 6 kts 8 gallons of gas.

Dan