Groco Seacocks

[Tim Mertinooke]

This may be old news to some, but I thought I would post the info anyway for those that have not heard. Groco has posted a service bulletin for some of their seacocks made between 2004-06. Marelon is looking better and better to me.

http://www.groco.net/svc-bltn/cat-svc-bltn-2-08.htm

MODELS: IBV, FBV, FV and TWV

GROCO's design for the imported valves series shown above specified a high-grade stainless steel valve stem. We have discovered that the stem material used in some of the valves manufactured between 2004 and 2006 may not have complied with our specifications. Valves with out-of-spec stems may not be suitable for salt-water use. Since the non-compliant silver color stems may fail when the valve is actuated we wish to have all such valves removed from service. GROCO will supply replacement valves at no charge

[Rachel]

I researched a few different brands of seacocks early this year when I was replacing mine. One of the things I did was call Groco and talk to them about theirs. What I found out then was that their "high end" seacocks were all bronze or 316 stainless (the ball and maybe a few other parts but I can't remember now) and made in the US. However, their cheaper ones were made overseas and had a brass stem! The Groco guy said they'd switched to brass when their foreign stainless supply had had some quality problems.

Well it certainly looks like they did. Yikes. Thanks for posting this.

As a side note I also found that the "cheap" Conbraco seacocks were domestically made and had NO brass parts. Everything was bronze or good quality stainless, with the only "less desirable" part being the steel handle (but those are very visible and easily replacable).

[JonnyBoats]

I know this is way off topic, but didn't we used to have a law in this country that goods made abroad had to be clearly labeled with country of origin?

When picking up a piece of hardware at the chandlery, is there any way to tell if it is made in America?

[LazyGuy]

Rachel,

What did you end up using?

[Rachel]

I almost went with some classic Spartans that were given to me, but then they weren't given in the end and I had to go shopping. My choices came down to three:

1) The top-of-the line Grocos (the ones with the cast handle).
2) The Perkos with the cast handle and acetal ball.
3) The Conbracos by Apollo.

I hemmed and hawed and gathered data (of course), and ultimately I used the Conbracos. I liked that they had all-bronze wetted components, and a chromium plated bronze ball. They were also nicely priced, and I could get them next day, with no shipping cost. The next day thing came into play because I had a helper lined up. I'm not so fond of the handle.

I would have gone with the Perkos (and would probably do so if I made the choice again), but they were very hard to source. The few places that did carry them were out of stock, and even Perko could not give me good information on when they would be manufactured and sent to the suppliers. I was contacted by someone from the forum who had a local supplier with them in stock (so it is possible to get them), and even offered to help send them to me, but I had helper-scheduling issues that didn't work out with that option. I'm not 100% sure about the acetal ball, but I do like the seacocks.

The Grocos were much more expensive (not that I was basing the decision on price, but the more expensive something is, the more I really have to like all the details), and to make it worse the discount was much less. I also wasn't fond of the 316 stainless ball they have (unabashed bronze fan here; not saying there's anything wrong with it). And even though I wouldn't be buying that model, the fact that they even sell seacocks with brass parts rubbed me the wrong way.

One more note on the Grocos: I was informed by Groco at that time (spring 2007) that their high-end seacocks - which had round bases at that time - would be switching over to the same triangular bases as their other seacocks. I asked them why and they said that people had complained that it was hard to get tools in to tighten fasteners on the round bases (because they are closer to the body of the seacock than the ends of the triangular ones).

One more note on the Conbracos: A friend was replacing the handles on his ~20-year-old Conbracos and showed me that the new handles were much beefier. I'm not sure if they're all this way or if it's an optional handle, but they were inexpensive and very thick. They're still the same style though.

And one more note on the Perkos: While the Perkos aren't cheap, they do have an option where they come as a package (designed for boat builders, I think) with the seacock, through-hull, and pipe-to-hose connector all purchased together, and that option makes the price much better, if you need all those parts.

And the Spartans: By the way, when I contacted Spartan about purchasing some of their pipe-to-hose fittings (they're straight-threaded, so a bit unusual), their selection was very low, and the person I talked to not all that knowledgeable (for example, they didn't know whether their seacock top threads were straight or tapered -- I had one on hand to test and that's how I found out). Also, they said that they weren't really making some of the fittings anymore (I'm not totally confident that's right, but their inventory was missing certain sizes altogether, so it could be). Groco makes fittings that will work for this too, but they are much more expensive then pipe-threaded ones. You'd have to really want these seacocks.

[LazyGuy]

Rachel,

Thanks. I have until May so I will shoot for the Perko and fall back on replacing the Conbracos.

[Rachel]

By the way, I love how that Groco recall says "Yellow color, brass stem, do not need to be replaced." As if a brass stem is okay. <shudders>

Rachel

[Tim Mertinooke]

By the way, I love how that Groco recall says "Yellow color, brass stem, do not need to be replaced." As if a brass stem is okay.

That was my initial thought after realizing what part they were recalling.


I am getting very skeptical of claimed metal and alloy compositions due to metal commodity prices and the fact that companys like Groco seem to be getting farther from the production process. Allow me to segway into the use of Marelon for seacocks which would negate many of the worries we speak of. Is Marelon a suitable alternative to bronze?

[bcooke]

The people at Marelon will certainly say so. That is the route I went.

-Britton

[Tim Mertinooke]

Searching the web for info (always dangerous) about Marelon Seacocks, I have found stories of handles breaking, cracks forming, swelling of the material due to water incursion, and a possible melting concern if subjected to the heat of a lightning strike. I like the idea of plastic for obvious reasons, but bronze has a pretty good track record if maintained properly.

[bcooke]

Bronze is a known product and you can't go wrong with it. Unless ,as you suggest, the material is being compromised in the widespread rush to mediocrity that seems to be in fashion these days.

For every bad story about Marelon I can find a story about someone installing marelon because their bronze valve failed so I wouldn't put too much faith on what you read out there. There are too many idiot yahoos on the internet to take what I read there very seriously anyhow.

I think it all comes down to proper maintenance in the end. Lubricate with the proper material, do it regularly, don't twist the handle so hard that it rips off in your hand. As long as you do this I don't think it matters much which material you use.

-Britton

[Tim]

..possible melting concern if subjected to the heat of a lightning strike.

"possible" being the most telling part of this boater's myth. I can't quite figure out why people would feel this would be true. Frankly, if one had a lightning strike that was truly inclined to damage seacocks in any way, it would likely affect both metal and Marelon fittings in bad ways. In my opinion, this is not a reason to choose one over the other, regardless of which way you might lean.

Marelon is nylon fiber-reinforced plastic--rather like your boat, in fact, which is also fiber-reinforced plastic. The term "plastic" conjures up all sorts of cheesy images, of course, but the reality is that Marelon is really an engineered fiberglass product (that uses nylon instead of glass fibers), and, however much it falls under the basic definition of a plastic, it's really not, at least not in the commonplace, toy-section-at-Wal-Mart sense. It is strong and long-lasting. I am sure some very basic maintenance is required to prevent the balls from sticking--just like with any such fitting, metal or otherwise.

...stories of handles breaking, cracks forming...

You can find stories of failures for any single product or material out there in the world. Just because it happened to someone doesn't mean it's common, or even remotely likely. Everyone loves a horror story, it seems.

I originally bought Marelon fittings for my boat, but returned them when I realized that the 1-1/2" fittings were huge and too large for where I wanted them under my cockpit (so are most bronze seacocks of the same thread size). Marelon didn't have a 1-1/4" fitting (which I used in bronze along with full-flow tailpieces for 1-1/2" hose), so I switched to the Conbracos.

The Conbracos are sound fittings. I hate the handles, but they work; replacement of the handle is a cinch if something happens to it. All my handles are still in fine condition. With a tiny bit of what I think should be normal overall boat maintenance (read: not neglect), the handles don't simply rust away and disappear. I'd rather have cast bronze handles, obviously, and would seek such a thing on my next installation.

I still prefer bronze, but Marelon is a good product, I think, and the more Chinese the bronze products become as manufacturers seek higher profits at the expense of the consumer, the less advantage bronze has, if it has any to begin with. I wouldn't hesitate to use Marelon if it fit the application, and think that it's earned itself a solid track record.

Neglect kills everything. Take care of your boat--all parts of her. Especially the ones you don't see all the time.

[Ganges #363]

When I was new to my Triton I considered Marlon seacocks, my boatyard guy told me the Marlon handles had a habit of breaking off. Indeed, there were two Marlon seacocks on the boat...both had broken handles. I replaced them with bronze.

The point about proper maintenance is right on of course. What is the best way to maintain Marlon to prevent the broken handles?

-Bill

[Peter]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg!!!!







and a fourth with no picture.

Oh well, next "scheduled" haulout is April 2009.
Did I mention they're installed with 3M5200? :-(

[Figment]

The point about proper maintenance is right on of course. What is the best way to maintain Marlon to prevent the broken handles?

If the boat is hauled periodically, then an acid brush with waterproof grease is a good way to lubricate the works from the outside. For those that go years between haulouts, it's probably worth plugging from the outside and removing the hose to lubricate from the interior every so often.

Really, if you're applying enough force to the handle to break it, then you're REALLY behind on your maintenance regimen.

That sucks, Peter. No two ways about it, it just sucks.

[Tim]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg!!!!
:-(

You know, I thought that was thunder I heard just now, but the skies were clear and it's 20 degrees out...

What's most annoying about this sort of thing is that competent people like you did their homework, bought supposedly good products, and installed them thoroughly, never suspecting that poor quality control at the manufacturing level would come back to bite you through no fault of your own.

OK, who here on the board is going to set up a quality bronze foundry that will make excellent products for realistic prices for the benefit of all...

[Tim Mertinooke]

Oh well, next "scheduled" haulout is April 2009.
Did I mention they're installed with 3M5200? :-(

Peter,
Being familiar with the unit, what will be involved with replacing the stem? Must the whole unit be replaced or is that particular seacock servicable and able to be dismantled?

EDIT: After re-reading the service bulletin I see now that the whole unit needs to be replaced. I would demand they replace these with their top of the line seacocks as a way of making good on the labor and annoyance involved. Wow!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg!!!!

Well said.

[Ceasar Choppy]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg!!!!

Ah yes... the sound of someone who has their seacocks installed with 5200! ;)

I haven't checked yet, but I suspect I have these in my boat as well. The 2"ers that I installed two years ago. Since these are on my cockpit scupper drains, I'll have to think long and hard before I decide to replace them.... I can't remember the last time I closed those seacocks and its hard to fathom why I would. :)

This whole issue begs the question: is crappy stainless worse or better than brass in a saltwater environment?

[Peter]

After re-reading the service bulletin I see now that the whole unit needs to be replaced. I would demand they replace these with their top of the line seacocks as a way of making good on the labor and annoyance involved. Wow!

I'm requesting they include new thru hulls, as they will probably get destroyed in the removal process.

As the better valves have a larger bolt circle, and I'm a bit cramped for space, I want to stay with the same type of valves. I also suggested they throw in a tube of sealer, to help improve customer relations ;-)

[Rachel]

As the better valves have a larger bolt circle, and I'm a bit cramped for space, I want to stay with the same type of valves.

Peter,

First of all, what a drag about those seacocks. My heart sunk as I saw the photos.

You may already have checked this, in which case disregard, but when I talked to the fellow at Groco last late spring, he told me that they were going to (or maybe already had) start making their top of the line seacocks with a triangular base that matched that of the lower end ones. If that were the case, you could go with the good ones.

As I understood it, it was a combination of people complaining that it was hard to get tools in on the round bases to tighten them, and the fact that they wanted people to be able to "upgrade" from the various triangular-base seacocks on the market, and have these fit the holes. Hmmm, were they clairvoyant...?

If it were me, I don't think I'd replace with the lower-end Grocos even if they were given to me, because of all the brass wetted components they have. (See my notes earlier in the thread.)

In any case, feel free to vent here. Geez, what a pain.

Rachel

[Tim Mertinooke]

... they were going to (or maybe already had) start making their top of the line seacocks with a triangular base that matched that of the lower end ones. If that were the case, you could go with the good ones...

[MikeD]

Now that's an improvement! A black button so you can't see the stem underneath!

Peter, I'm truly sorry to hear about your situation - hopefully Groco will make it right for you. Thanks for posting the TSB Tim M.!

For my part, I'm just beginning to research seacocks, and now I have one I can cross off my list.

This is just another example of why this forum is such a great resource. Plenty of good advice, how to's, heads up, and lots of research material for cold winter nights. And thanks again Tim L. for hosting it!

[Tim Mertinooke]

Now that's an improvement! A black button so you can't see the stem underneath!

It is customary in the yachting world to hide innovation. It's a proprietary thing I think...

[Quetzalsailor]

I shall reserve my 'AAArrrrgh' until I stick my head in the bilge in the spring. I'm sure I have stainless balls and shaft, but I'm also sure the handles are yellow, not white.

'There's no job worth doing that's not worth doing twice!' (Usually delivered at the top of my voice)

[Quetzalsailor]

I looked at my photos of the bilge and the new seacocks. Wouldn't you know that the handles are in 'edge view', every time? I've probably got Conbracos with chromed bronze balls (not stainless as I'd remembered) and stainless shaft. Certainly the stops are cast in, not Groco's removable screws.