Sail modification

[Figment]

My mainsail is actually a Shields mainsail. It's in great condition.... a little too blown-out for a Shields, but just deep enough for the Triton, and the fabric is still nice and crunchy.

My two gripes are that it's about 6" too large both in luff and in foot length, and that it has no reef points. Over the course of the winter, I'd like to have this remedied, and I think I'd also prefer to go loose-footed as well.

Might this be a sound investment, or is all of this going to add up to enough $$ that I'd do better to put the money into a new sail?

[Tim]

Nothing beats a brand-new sail for your sailboat. It's your go-power, and it's money very well spent that you will never regret. Of all the ways you can spend money on a boat, I can't think of a more enjoyable one than a new sail. Don't think for a minute that it won't make a noticeable difference in performance--it will. Hands down.

If you're inclined to learn some sailmaking techniques yourself, then this might be a good opportunity to put in these improvements yourself. Otherwise, I would think long and hard about a new sail before investing in an older one that wasn't even made for the boat. Paying a sailmaker for two sets of reefpoints, a loose foot, and the rather significant resizing might add up pretty quickly--but the only way to truly compare is to get an accurate quote for both the modifications, and for a new sail.

I would go for the new sail, myself. Others will feel differently, of course. Only you know your true budget and what you see as your potential enjoyment of that expenditure. Figure about $1200 +/- for a full-batten mainsail w/loose foot, 2 reefpoints, cunningham, jacklines, and reef cringle ears.

[dasein668]

I would definitely price it out. Go talk to your local sailmaker <begin lengthy aside>and spend some time with him/her to really be sure they understand what you want. This counts for both a new sail and any recut/modification work. Its really easy to think you've made yourself clear when in fact the sailmaker thinks something totally different. I speak from experience. I bet Tim can say the same.</lengthy aside> about the possibilities of a recut as well as a new sail.

I think if you can do all the work for a couple hundred bucks you'll probably be pretty happy with the recut work. But if it gets up to 5 or 6 hundred, I can almost guarantee you'll be happier (if at all fiscally possible) biting the proverbial bullet and getting the new sail.

I spent waaay too much money on a new sail (and cover) for this season. I was having buyer's remorse even after I put the new sail up for the first time at the mooring. But after 5 minutes of sailing with it I couldn't even believe that I had used my old sail all season last year. It made that much difference. Every time I leave the mooring I praise the money I spent. Its amazing...

[Dave, 397]

While I may have some different ideas on sails in some directions, and have certainly done well with recuts in cases, I'll strongly second, third or whatever everyone's input here on this one: If you can afford it, get the new sail.

Do check out Sailrite at www.sailrite.com . I've put together and helped put together a good number of sailrite kits, and they are fine performares and good-looking if you pay a bit of attention and try at all. You can call on the phone and speak directly to the person who will fine-tune the design of your sail to your specs, and I think that is worth it's weight in gold. The kits come with plotter-cut panels with etched alignment marks just like most lofts are gonna send away for, and the instructions are very good. A husky old home machine from the yard sale will do the job nicely, and sailrite even have detailed instructions on the website on how to hot-rod just such a machine so it does it even better. You can get as deluxe as you want for a Triton Main and probably not exceed 800.00! If the savings you realize allow it, do a new genoa too, and have them cut it to compliment the main you are building. This makes more difference than you can believe!

If you can ill afford the time and well-afford the money, a loft built sail may be the choice...but when they ask "race or cruise?" look out! Say "race please" and then tell them you want the racing sail of 1969 or so. If you say cruise, you usually (not always, but all too often) get a sail that does not perform that well and is built way too heavy to do so as they don't expect the average "cruiser" to take reasonable care of his/her sails so they last.

If nothing else, I'll say this, too...remember that it is a SAIL boat, and a fine one at that; and that when it's really in the fan it well may be up to the sails' ability to draw well in light air, or to point well in general, that saves the boat or not. The real horsepower is in the rig, after all...and sometimes the only way out of the jam lays near dead-to-weather. Shes a fine boat, and she'll save herself and you too if she has the tools!

I will go without a lot of things and a lot of personal treats in order to have good sails! Drank Pabst and such for a month once...I was single and living aboard, so that was probably a lot of cheap beer in order to afford a good sail!<G>

Best,
Dave

[George ( Triton #236 )]

I just wanted to add my two cents as well...

I've worked in a custom sail loft a day or two a week for about a year now and seen all kinds of stuff come through the shop. Built all kinds of sails and repaired all kinds of sails. The repairs are especially fun because you get to see all the different ways a sail can fail. I'll try to make some quick points.

1. A really good custom Dacron main sail for a Triton with full battens, two or three reef points and all the best materials is going to cost around $2,000 - 2,600. Less than about $1,800., and the sail is being made overseas someplace out of somewhat questionable materials and somewhat questionable design. We see an endless stream of these sails come in for re-cuts or luff fairing. Very rarely do we ever see a quality custom made sail come in for a re-cut or to get the luff re-faired ( and then only if they are very old ).

2. There shouldn't be any difference in the cut of a sail between "racing" and "cruising". For any given wind, there is only one perfect shape that maximizes both thrust and pointing ability.

3. I like to err on the slightly heavy side when it comes to fabric weights myself just for strength and longevity. Especially when it comes to a full batten mainsail where the shape is permanently in the sail. In extreme light air racing you just shift over to the leeward side, the sail flops over and "pop" the perfect shape is in the sail and you are ready to take full advantage of the next puff.

4. You can really pick up some pointing ability and driving power by getting a custom made Genoa for your Triton. Most all sailmakers pick a halfway point in the camber they build into a Genoa so it works on pretty much every boat. The Genoa on a Triton should be cut very flat because it sheets so far out on the toerail it needs a shallow camber to maintain the correct attack angle to the wind.

5. Buy a copy of "Sail Power" by Wallace Ross. It remains the greatest tome of sail knowledge I have ever seen and still appears to be used by custom sailmakers even today. Lots and lots of invaluable knowledge for the casual racer / cruiser too. Find this on "Ebay".

6. Look at some of the cool options. Cunningham, flattening reef, shelf foot, 2:1 purchase reef cringles, Dutchman systems, etc. You don't actually need any of these things but they are fun to play with.

7. Material is very important!!! You can usually only get the best material if you go to a custom sail maker and have it specifically ordered. For the Triton, that would be a first run Dacron specifically designed for our aspect ratio with killer flatness numbers. One thing that is not generally understood is that every single roll of sailcloth made is different from every other roll ( even of the exact same brand and type - and in some cases very different ) just like a snowflake. This is why every single roll of sailcloth direct from the factory has a tag with that particular rolls' "numbers" - bias stretch, flatness, thread counts in both directions, etc. Prices also vary widely depending on "the numbers". Having a guy hand pick the BEST roll to make your sail makes a huge difference in the finished product and how long it will be until you are shelling out $$$ to get the sail re-cut.

8. Get big numbers on the sail. 16" or 18" numbers are nice. Tiny numbers just look silly.


George Jones
#236 "Ca Ira"

[Tim]

A really good custom Dacron main sail for a Triton with full battens, two or three reef points and all the best materials is going to cost around $2,000 - 2,600. Less than about $1,800., and the sail is being made overseas someplace out of somewhat questionable materials and somewhat questionable design

I disagree with this generalization. My local-built full-batten, 2-reef, cunningham'd sail of high quality cost $1200; perhaps make that $1300 to account for inflation since 2001. (Nathan?) Granted, I later had it modified to a loose foot (for an additional fee--$100+), but having that incorporated at the time of construction would not have changed the cost significantly. Not to mention good support from my local loft.

That's not to say that $1200 might only buy you crap if you order from some bulk, order-over-the-phone place or on the Internet--that probably is, true. Beware these sorts of deals. But it doesn't mean, either, that any sail built for that price is no good, or somehow cheaply made necessarily. For that matter, a $2600 sail doesn't guarantee quality either. Most sailing areas have one or more local lofts, and you should pick and choose carefully.

Prices obviously vary from location to location. Know your source, know their record. Which loft seems to provide the most, or the best, sails to your local racing fleets? This is often a good choice, as their record and reputation is well proven. That said, beware a loft that doesn't seem interested in building sails for your cruising boat...you deserve the same quality and attention as the racer who buys new sails every year. Some places definitely place less effort and care on one-time buyers, especially with smaller boats. Look elsewhere if you get this feeling from any loft.

These disparities are why Nathan's advice a few posts up makes sense, and I wholeheartedly agree: know what you want, ask for it, and be sure it's delivered. I had some minor issues with this, all of which have been well dealt with, but still--it was a little annoying. However, having a personal relationship with a convenient local loft made all the difference here.

And get a sail made for how you intend to use the boat. You don't need overweight material and heavy triple stiching, or even triple reefs, for coastal daysailing and cruising; it doesn't pay off. That said, if you're going offshore, it pays to have the sail built accordingly. Don't buy too little--but don't buy too much, either. For most of us, at least in the near future, a coastal main with two deep reefs and "normal" weight material (perhaps 7 oz? I forget.) is more than adequte. Personally, I would not hesitate to buy a different, and new, sail purpose-built if I decide to use my boat differently than I do now.

And George is right about the large numbers--within reason, obviously. A draft stripe or two could be handy also--and they tend to make the sail just a touch nicer looking too. I like blue for numbers and logos; it seems to work well and look classy with the white dacron. (Silly little thing, but...)

[George ( Triton #236 )]

When making my generalization about price I was apparently not taking Tim's negoating ability into account :-)

The point I was trying to make is that from a strictly business point of view it should be impossible for a local sailmaker to make a full batten Triton mainsail for $1,200. The materials costs alone are going to be close to $600. That leaves only $600 for labor, overhead, and profit. A custom full batten mainsail is a massively labor intensive item requiring around 80 man hours ( or more ) to make. $600 divided by 80 is an hourly wage of $7.50 per hour. This is half of what a minimum wage employee costs these days ( employment taxes, workman's comp, etc. bring the total to about $15 per hour) At this point the sailmaker has lost $600 before he even adds fixed overhead ( building, electricity, machines, heat, etc. ) and profit to the bill. And that's assuming he was somehow able to get a skilled sailmaker to work for him for minimum wage.

I will be the first to admit that sailmakers make no money. This is why I can only afford to spend one day a week at the loft. It's strictly for fun. Local lofts are only able to make money on custom canvas work and repairs these days.

George Jones
#236 "Ca Ira"

[dasein668]

1) Mainsail Dacron 6.5oz, Crosscut, Full-batten (4), 2 reefs w/ears, loosefoot, Triton Insignia, sail number 668, jackline, tell tales, cunningham cringle, sail ties, sail bag. Price $1,571.40

I also got a new very nice sailcover built for 245.70. Total bill, including sales tax was 1,895.67. Yes, it hurt, but it was well worth it.

Tim may have gotten a break because he also had a jib built at the same time. I don't know. Or maybe their prices have gone up quite a bit in the past two years.

This was not the most expensive price I had quoted for the sail. Nor was it the cheapest. But I have used Hallett sails before, and I had seen Tim's and was pleased with it. Plus, I wanted to deal with a local loft.

I had a couple of minor issues, but in general I got what I wanted and I don't begrudge the price one bit. They built an excellent sail.

One thing to remember is that the price is likely to depend on where in the country you are having it built. Another thing to consider is how many local lofts are competing for business. We have 3 local lofts, plus a Quantum loft in the area. Note that Quantum quoted me about 1200 (sail only). The highest quote I got was for 1900 (sail only).

Hope this helps!

[Tim]

My apologies!

It appears I was incorrect in my memory. My genoa was $1200. My new mainsail, in 2001, was $1400. Sorry for the misquote, all! Oops. I had to add the jacklines after the fact; I forget how much that addition cost. $50 or $75, perhaps? Nathan's new sail, which is basically identical to mine and from the same sail loft, benefitted from having all the necessary options added at the time of construction, having seen my sail and the experience I had with several "forgotten" additions that should have been added at the onset.

Still, regardless of a couple hundred bucks, it illustrates that, if nothing else, there's a wide disparity in pricing depending on your location. I'm sure George is right about the materials cost; I guess either our Maine lofts' overhead is less, or they're content with a smaller profit margin. Note that this is not a backwoods loft; they computer cut the cloth and all that high-tech stuff. They must be making some money somewhere.

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi Tim,


$1,200 is what we charge for a Triton Genoa. $1,400. is a screaming deal for a well made Triton mainsail with full battens and two rows of reef points.

Main sails are a pain just because of the massive amount of hand labor involved. All the slides have to be hand sewn with webbing, all the grommetts have to be worked by hand, 7 large multi layer reinforcements have to be constructed with rings and webbing, leech lines installed, battens and batten cars have to be sewn in and constructed. I would say that a mainsail takes fully twice as much labor as a Genoa.

My experience with the business is that it's currently impossible for a local loft to stay in business constructing sails. The costs are just too high. For example, ours is the only loft in the lower Chesapeake that will make a sail completely from scratch. All the other lofts have the sails made overseas and all the local guy does is add telltails, slides, and an insignia. The only exception to this is the North loft which has a couple of production factorys here in the U.S. where the sails are made.

Lofts make money doing repairs, and doing canvas work. Especially custom canvas work for new boat dealers.

Although... we have seen a two fold increase this year in custom sail orders come through the door. This is mostly from people who got burned on the internet. So maybe a little of the business is coming back to the U.S. lately.

Sailmakers do it for love not the $$$. My experience with it at least.


George Jones
#236 "Ca Ira"

[Figment]

Well, hot damn! Lively topic!

Ok.... $1400 in Maine dollars probably interpolates to $1800 Connecticut dollars at least (probably a source for your cost differential as well, George, if you're thinking Annapolis $$) if not closer to $2k.

eh, even $1400 might as well be a million this year. so... Rethink. How to get as much of what I need out of this sail for the minimum amount of cash. Age-old objective..... Most Bang For The Buck.

So let's start with the first part of that; What do I need done to this sail, really?

Having the luff shortened isn't so important. It just means a big ugly ol' wrinkle at the foot because the cunningham has to take up so much. Also, I could gain a couple of inches of hoist by relaying my halyard splice at the shackle, which I admit was overdone.

Do I need the foot shortened? Probably. It would be nice to be able to flatten the foot some more, but perhaps I can invent a rigging solution to this at boom's end.

Loosefoot.... eh.

Reef points:
Here, to my way of thinking, we're dealing with essential seamanship and boathandling. Also, to my way of thinking, this is the part that might be most efficiently done myself, as opposed to hiring a local loft because it involves more labor than skill.... we're just adding reinforcement, not recutting anything.
George, chime in here, I beg you
I have access to a canvas-grade sewing machine, and I'm not at all adverse to some palmwork.

(how often do I ask this here?) Am I nutty to be thinking along these lines or what?

Yeah yeah.... talk to a local loft for the real $$$. C'mon! lemme look at your homework, guys!

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi Figment,

I'm sorry. I started writing out the instructions for the job and stopped about a quarter of the way in. We do a lot of this sort of work in the shop and I didn't think about how complicated it really is until I started to write it down for you. The problem stems from the fact that you are going to have to create a new foot for the sail after you move the tack and clew reinforcements up by their proper relative amounts. You are also going to have to create the proper foot round at each of the reef points. Not to mention designing the new loose footed system or building a new bolt rope foot from scratch ( including a new foot round curve ). Because you need new foot and reef point curves you are also going to need a flat place to pick out the sail and a wooden batten to shape the new curves. Also, unless you have access to a hydraulic press you are going to need to be able to hand work stainless steel or bronze rings into the new reef points.

It's not an impossible job by any means, but it is complicated and will not be an easy undertaking. A copy of "The Sailmaker's Apprentice" by Emiliano Marino would be good to have on hand as well as lots of patience. If you really want to try, I can attempt to walk you through it by phone over several nights as you reach each critical point in the process.

A much better way to do this would be to wait until this winter and try to get some starving sailmaker to do it for a couple hundred dollars or so. It would be money well spent. Also, this would probably eliminate some of the sag in the sail as a sail tends to blow out from the foot first.

Let me know what you would like to do.


Good Luck!


George Jones
#236 "Ca Ira"

[Tim]

Mike,

Probably recreating the foot and all that yourself, as a first time sailmaking job, is probably more than you want/need to do right off. I can see how it would be tough--changing both of these dimensions is a pretty major change to the sail. I did some very basic sailmaking years ago (mid 80s), and, while getting something "just barely OK" (i.e good enough to push a lousy Cape Cod Mercury through the water for beginning sailors) isn't rocket science, getting it better than that is tough at first. It wasn't my bag, so to speak, and I'm happy to leave it to those who do it for a living, though I can make basic repairs as needed on the fly. It's now about the only aspect of my boat that I don't attend to myself, as I realize my limitations in the area.

Unfortunately, my bill from the sailmaker last winter is not itemized, so I don't know how much the loose foot conversion actually cost. I had my genoa luff modified slightly to try and correct a lifeline clearance issue at the foot, and had the mainsail changed to a loose foot (and reefing ear tabs added). The charge was $294 total.

So, basically you can't hoist the sail to its full luff length--so you take up the extra with the cunningham. Not ideal, but it'll get you around the bay, right? And you can't quite stretch the foot all the way either. Well, by the time the wind pipes up to an extent that you'd want the foot tightly stretched and the sail flattened, you're just about at the time for the first reef point--which, once tucked in, will eliminate both of your other problems.

So I'd concentrate on putting in the reefpoints. I bet you could learn to handsew a cringle in no time, so putting these in would probably not pose a problem for you. And handsewns are strong as all getout, if done properly. The reinforcing patches at these spots shouldn't be too tough to install yourself either.

The little grommets in the center of the sail, which are used to tie up the excess, are nothing special and are not designed (with jiffy reefing, anyway) to particularly hold any pressure, so they are just basic stamp-in grommets that are a cinch for anyone to install, with just a small reinforcing patch beneath each one.

I don't know how much is involved in placing the reef cringles so that the sail shape remains correct when each reef is tucked in. It seems like the curvature of the sail is predetermined at these points, based on the overall shape already cut in, and that adding cringles, as long as they're spaced properly on the leech and luff, should be pretty much it. But I bet George knows better than I on this one.

And I'd still shop the luff/foot mods around locally to see what you're looking at, anyway. It may not add up all that quickly--never know till you try. Obviously, prices vary enough region to region that one person's cost estimates aren't an accurate enough barometer for you to plan by.

Barring all that, drive that sail up to Maine for some of our "bargain sail pricing" that we seem to have going on! hehe We may have out of control property taxes, but at least the important stuff, like sails, is cheap!

[George ( Triton #236 )]

A new reef is pretty easy but there are a couple tricks to getting it right.


Step #1 - Make the new reef tack and clew exactly parallel to a line drawn through the center of the existing clew and tack cringles.

Step #2 - Use a batten ( or even nylon webbing ) to approximate the curve in the foot of the sail between the points you just chose for your new reef. Hold this batten in place with little spikes or heavy weights. ( Note: The further up the sail you go with your reef line, the shallower this curve will be. ) Draw a line on the sail using the curved batten as a straight edge. You should now have a curved line on your sail that looks like a mini version of your sails foot

Step #3 - Place the lower edge of the tack and clew cringles about a half inch above this curved line. This is exceptionaly important because it makes sure that the little reef lines that keep the scrunched up sail material from flopping around never ever take any strain!!!

Step #4 - Place grommetts about every two or three feet along the line you drew with the batten. ( this ensures that the grommetts are below the level of the new clew and tack and therefore don't take any strain!!! )

Note: I used 12 layers of 8.5 oz. cloth for the clew reinforcement; 10 layers for the tack; 2 layers for the grommetts. Use whatever weight cloth the sail was made out of. Most would call this big time overkill; 8, 6, and 2 layers respectively is probably "OK".

Note: The biggest reinforcement ( also called the "cover patch" ) should be cut out so that when placed on the sail the threads are oriented the same way as the sail cloth on the sail. This is strictly for looks although it's not a bad idea to switch the thread orientation by 90 degrees every layer of the reinforcement.

Note: Make the clew and tack reinforcements almost as big as the primary clew and tack reinforcements. ( or even the same size ) The cover patch for the grommetts will be about the size of your hand or a little bigger.

Look at Triton #236 under "Cool Pictures Afloat" to see what my main sail looks like.


Have Fun!


George Jones
#236 "Ca Ira"

[Figment]

Hey, thanks for the play-by-play George! The reef really is the only part I'm considering doing myself. I can probably come up with a rigging solution to the oversize issues before this season ends.

I suspect that this is a loaded question, and each will have his own answer:
How much sail should be taken in by the first reef? The second?

As a sidenote, George, in that recent racing photo of Ca Ira, the green boat to leeward has what appears to be a first reef that only takes about 10s.f. out of the sail, which seems strange to me. Also that sail appears to take smaller bites in general in each succeeding reef.

I really appreciate all of the input on the mainsail issues guys. All of this thinking about reef points has opened my eyes to another issue.... Foresail modification.
Issue #1 The foot of my genoa is just way too low. It actually laps over the toerail by 6" or so, and in addition to having a big nasty wrinkle where it jumps over the lifeline, in seas greater than 3' it does a little bit of shrimping with each wave. I'd like to raise the tack by 18 or 24".
Issue #2 It occurs to me that there's not much sense in having a second reef point in the main if I'm still going to fly a 150 genoa. In that much wind, I'd be better off with a 110 or a blade, no?
I have a second 150 that I could have recut, and a friend has offered to give me his old hank-on foresails (a roller furler unexpectedly landed in his lap last year) so there's more recutting stock there.

Is this sort of work beyond the skills of a novice?

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi Again Figment,


I can answer with some authority on the subject of the green boat in the picture with me - Mr. Hayes and I made those sails as well!

Where to take the reef points depends on how you sail the boat. For example, Mr. Barry Campbell who owns the green boat in that picture uses the boat strictly for racing. Racers tend to keep up as much sail as possible at all times. If the wind starts to overpower the boat then they will just pinch up a little to spill some air. If the wind falls off some then they still have up enough sail to drive the boat as hard as is possible. Barry won't sail the boat in more than 22 knots of wind so having deep reefs is of no concern to him. A couple of small reefs is all he needs to fine tune the rig. One at around 15 knots and one at around 20 knots. It works well for him and he was the one boat that beat me at the Admiral's Cup of the lower Chesapeake last Saturday.

I, on the other hand, cruise a lot and like to have options when 60 miles from home and the wind climbs to 25 knots or more. In addition to the two lines of reefs visible in the picture, I have an ultra deep, ultra strong third reef that projects a grand total of 22 sq. ft. of sail area. This in combination with a storm jib I own takes the boat nicely up to 38 knots. Over that I switch to the storm trysail. Over 45 knots nothing seems to help as the boat is sideways in the water with nothing up at all. ( going to windward at least )

In regards to the Genoa. Raising the clew isn't a hard operation but it requires a large space to pick out the sail flat, fairing battens, sewing machine, hot knife, etc. I wouldn't think that this job would be much over $100. at a sail loft this winter. One caution though, raising the clew is going to move the location it sheets to on the toerail back a bit. Make sure you have track to sheet it to.

Note : Buy and study "Sail Power" by Wallace Ross.

In regards to Genoa issue #2. If you were racing you would want the blade jib up because it gives give you several degrees of pointing ability. If you didn't have a blade you would want the 150% up to help with pointing and with driving the boat hard. If you were cruising, you would want a reef in the main and the working jib, or blade, up so you don't spill your beer.


George Jones
#236 "Ca Ira"

[Figment]

Ok, I've just devoured The Sailmaker's Apprentice and The Rigger's Apprentice. I'm still catching my breath. Sail Power is next.

Hoist issue solved. Rigger's reminded me of the "Chain Splice" (generally used to join anchor chain to rode when a shackle won't do), which is a very long, very slender splice that will let the halyard shackle hoist right to the sheave. Chafe at the shackle may be an issue, but if I need to relay the splice mid-season, so be it. Friggin halyard is about 12' too long anyway.

I think I'm ready to tackle the recutting of the genoa and the addition of reef points to the main, in that order. I have lots of spare genoas to play with, so hopefully I'll make my irrepairable errors there before I start monkeying with my one good mainsail.

Julia... "but first you're going to fix that ratty old mainsail cover and make it look nice, right?"

"yes, dear." She's tickled by the fact that I'm going to spend my winter evenings sewing, keeping her company with her crochet work.

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi Figment,

I'm glad you like the books. "Sail Power" will not disappoint either. In fact my three favorite books ever on the subject of sailboats are:

1. "Marine Diesel Engines" by Nigel Calder

2. "The Rigger's Apprentice" by Brion Toss

3. "Sail Power" by Wallace Ross


Good luck with the sails,

George
Triton #236 "Ca Ira"

[Figment]

Oh, hey George..... is there a source for bronze thimble inserts that you'd care to reccommend?

[George (Triton #236 )]

Hi Figment,

Let me know what size you need; we may have a few laying around the shop. We use the high tech Aquabatten press rings ourselves but they do require a large hydraulic press to fit onto a sail.

George
Triton #236 "Ca Ira"

[David]

What are the advantages to eliminating the boom slides?

[Figment]

The cold hand of winter has given me a bracing slap of reality.

I'd intended to begin this sail work after Thanksgiving, but life got in the way. Even now, my carpal tunnel problems are not far enough behind me that needlework would be a good idea. So once again I must consider throwing the checkbook at this sail modification thing.

I have a local loft estimating $235 per reef for the main and guesstimating $300 to cut the 150% genoa's leach back and turn it into a 130%. At those prices, I'm inclined to only have one reef installed in the main for now. I figure I can always have a second installed next year, right?

The big question is.... Which reef point to do this year? the "first" or the "second"? The greater sail reduction allowed by the second reef would seem to be the safer course of action, but I wonder if in actual practice I'll be hesitant to actually reef so deeply, violating the "reef early, reef often" maxim. The first reef will be used more often, obviously, but we'll still take a beating in higher wind....

At the moment, I'm leaning toward doing only the first reef for this year. Looking realistically at our life, no real "cruising" will be done this summer. Mostly daysailing, with hopefully two or three weekend jaunts thrown in for spice. I think that, given the narrow "weather window" required for that kind of sailing, the potential for us to get caught out in really snotty weather is pretty minimal.

Gimme a reality/sanity check on that line of thought.

[Tim]

My gut tells me that sounds kind of pricey for the reefs,but I honestly have nothing concrete on which to base that, so maybe not. But we're talking two pressed-in cringles (unless they're quoting you handsewns, which I doubt unless you specifically asked for it--which maybe you did) and 3 or 4 chintzy grommets for the tiedowns. Plus whatever sail reinforcement patches are needed for all. I can't believe it would take a skilled sailmaker more than 1-2 hours to install the entire reef.

Price notwithstanding, however, I would say that the first reef is a priority. Unless you seek to choose to head out in over 25 knots of wind, or in the face of such a wind in the forecast, you'll have little use for the 2nd reef for most typical inshore daysailing and weekending. It's usually pretty easy in those circumstances to avoid high wind days, if you're so inclined. But the first reef becomes pretty necessary at about 15 knots of wind, which strength is pretty typical on a summer's afternoon in the northeast. The deeper second reef would reduce sail a bit too much for winds under 25. Most boaters never tuck in the second reef, unless they're doing more longer or offshore passages, or find some perverse enjoyment in actually choosing to sail in the higher winds.

When you start sailing in a way in which you might be forced to sail in the higher winds, then the second reef makes sense. And I wouldn't build a new sail without at least two reefs included right off the bat, but I know we're not talking about new here.

I've had my second reef tucked in once in three seasons, and I didn't even need it that day--I thought the wind was heavier than it was.

[Dave, 397]

I'm all with Tim on the reef points...it's a 'gotta-have'.

While I know no one brought it up, I wanted to toss in my nickel's worth on the 3-reef-point-jivesail.

I did have a sail with three sets of reef points once, it was one of those excessively heavy and excessively full-cut and ill-performing "cruising sails" made by a "famous" loft in Port Townsend. Took a lot of recutting to make that sail work well in less than 15 knots...on a Pearson Commander. for goodness' sakes!

My own take, is that if a person is in a situation where it's time for that third reef, it is probably really time for a trysail. The forces involved on the upper portion of the main like that, if it's really blowing and you reef it down three, are plenty enough to blow the draft right out and ruin the sail.
Besides, there are few small-boat booms that can supply room for a third(!) set of reefing blocks, etc... unless that's in place, not only will the downhaul angle not work well but I think it's not too realistic to expect a great deal of re-leading and fiddling is gonna get done in third-reef conditions. Dunno, just thinking.

A nice beginning sailmaking project, BTW, is to cut a storm trysail out of a heavy and large used main from a bigger boat, which can often be had cheap or free. I helped a friend make one last winter in which we used a "get-it-on-fast" arrangement to put it on the mast...it would be real cool to have a 2nd track, but most small boat masts just don't have the room without putting the track more-or-less on the side of the stick which is undesirable in a bunch of directions at once. We used 2" nylon seatbelt webbing, sidelock buckles and some really big hardwood beads/balls from a craft store, which are threaded onto each strap over the (folded) webbing. The straps this yields are grommeted and sewn both to the sail, and can readily strap around the mast, while the balls let it slide up and down. There is a bit of concern about the sidelock buckles holding up in high winds, but a lashing could always be added as well I guess.

One of the projects I may get to in spring is adding some reef points to one of the Dragon's old mains. In interest of a nice clean airflow, the Dragon carries three different mainsails... This is great as a purebred racer, but her days of doing that are over, at least until she finds some real crew! (he he) We just go out and flog on her when the wind blows, so she really needs a more sensible sail for that.

Probably at least a quarter's worth there now, or else it's not worth the paper it's...oh hey, that's right. It isn't even printed. Whew! Worth something after all! LOL!

Best,
Dave

[David]

Dave,

I would have to say that for my and the Bristol, having 3 levels of reefing habr been very useful. I have used the third reef several times when thunderstorms will roll in out of the gulf. The thrid reef is fast to set up and the mainsail works very well. It is not overly heavy for the boat, either 6 or 6.5 ounce and reduces the main to 50 sf. I personally would feel naked sailing without a third reef down here.

David

[Figment]

My gut tells me that sounds kind of pricey for the reefs,but I honestly have nothing concrete on which to base that, so maybe not. But we're talking two pressed-in cringles (unless they're quoting you handsewns, which I doubt unless you specifically asked for it--which maybe you did) and 3 or 4 chintzy grommets for the tiedowns. Plus whatever sail reinforcement patches are needed for all. I can't believe it would take a skilled sailmaker more than 1-2 hours to install the entire reef.

Nah, no handsewn cringles. Maybe one day when I buy a whole new suit, but not on this sail. After seeing the sail (and seeing that he wouldn't need to mess with any batten pockets) the per-reef price came down to $190. The bad news was that he advised me not to mess with my 165 genoa because the cloth didn't appear to have a whole lot of life left in it. I still need to come up with something in the neighborhood of a 130, though, so if you hear anything......

The part of the conversation that seemed strange was that he was surprised to hear that I have a 180. He seemed to think that a Triton shouldn't need to fly that much sail. I beg to differ, but whatever.

[Tim]

...he was surprised to hear that I have a 180...

Well, considering that for the past 20+ years most race boats have never used anything larger than a 150% (because of substantial handicap penalties for anything larger), it's not surprising. 180s are definitely from days past.

But a Triton in 10 knots or less wind must be great with a 180. That's why I want a big-a** light air drifter-type sail myself.

Actually, one or two of the Volvo 60s in the last RTWR occasionally pulled out ridiculous headsails of something like 210% LP for really light air stuff, particularly in the final legs up there in the Baltic sea.

[Dave, 397]

DECISION, my old Commander, had a 180, a 130 and the littel battened working jib. Used that 180 all the time! Only thing I found was that if I struck the main for some reason in a stiffening breeze and left the 180 up, the boa would take off like a kite in whatever direction the headsail seemed to like! Whee!!!!

Dave

[Figment]

I should qualify this sail that I'm calling my 180..... I doubt it was made for the boat. It almost certainly was originally made for a much larger boat as a 130+/- and purchased used by a PO.

I say this for three reasons. 1) the construction is far too heavy for it to have been intended as a light-air sail. 2) Until I installed tracks at station 7 this past summer, there was no way to properly sheet this sail. 3) it gives the term "deck sweeper" new meaning. The foot of the sail actually flaps over the toerail by a few inches, even with the big fat wrinkles caused by jumping over the lifelines. It's an ugly set, but it moves the boat.

The result is a sail that demonstrates how nice a Triton MIGHT be with a big light-air sail, but doesn't quite pull it off because the weight of the material makes the sail too slow to inflate in light air. Based on what this sail has taught me about the boat, I think the best light air sail would probably be something like a 180 or maybe even as big as a 200%, sheeted to the quarters like a spinnaker, and probably constructed as light as a spinnaker as well.

(So, somebody run out and buy a spinnaker with 20' luffs and a 25' foot, recut it to flatten, hoist it sideways, and give it a try!)

Dave, yep the Triton handles the 180-alone pretty much the same way once the sheets are eased. Sheeted hard, however, the CE isn't much forward of where it is with both sails, so I've actually been able to use it to windward on lazy-days when I didn't feel like hoisting the main. Just a wee touch of lee-helm.

[Dave, 397]

The recut chute you speak of is a very viable thing, we've made a few of 'em...works very well, especially when the sail is tacked down well out in front of the boat on an impromptu "jib boom"--a modified spinnaker pole. Friend of mine who got us all doing it calls it his "obnoxisol".

Poled out ahead, you can carry a genoa, or better yet a flattish gennaker, underneath it. I got psycho about it all and made a recycled-spinnaker main, which we tried on the same boat. A reaching monster! I call it the "mainnaker"<G>.

The cut of the sails in this case isn't that particularly critical, they're just big bags of air for the most part. What is critical is to not try and carry stuff that big in much over 10 knots at an outside maximum...this is a lot of HP, and has the potential to really rip things up if it gets out of hand.

I have also had a good amount of success with a standard symetrical spinnaker flown minus pole...I put a short, adjustable lanyard on one stay to be the "tack", and a single, lightweight Amsteel sheet on the other. Looks goofy, but indeed you just sorta fly it out off the side of the boat, using the sheet, tack lanyard and halyard to tweak the shape a bit. Moves the boat along very well! I also expirimented with sheeting thru a couple of blocks on an adjustable lanyard run in a loop to a stern cleat, the second run to another loop that I moved around fore-aft wherever I could clip a caribiner and then used as a barber-haul of sorts. It was interesting, but I didn't find it highly beneficial or necessary in the end...the simplest rigging worked best.

Dave

[Tim]

I'm still looking forward to my lightweight drifter (very large), rigged to the masthead and led to a new sprit forward. I think the foretriangle of the frac Triton is so small that I'm not going to bother rigging this sort of sail unless I go to the masthead, for some real horsepower. Probably 1 or 1.5 oz material (possibly lighter--dunno), so that the sail can be flown to nearly closehauled in, say, 5 knots of wind or so, and on a beam/broad reach/run in higher winds.

Someday. Maybe this sail will be Heidi's first foray into the homebuilt sail arena.

[Figment]

Remember me yammering on about how the luff of the mainsail was just a few inches too long, and how I need to come up with some kind of "rigging solution" to allow me to properly tension the sail without costly modification??

Solution found. One of those real bonk yourself-on-the-forehead kind of moments.

First, I re-laid my halyard shackle splice as a chain splice, hoping that the extra few inches this gained by allowing more line through the sheave would be the ticket. That was fun. Then, as someone walks by and chats for a few minutes, watching me finish the splice as I sit on the cabintop, he notices "Jeez, you don't even have a vang on this thing?? you know Bob bought a rigid vang for his boat a few years ago and then replaced it with a bigger one, I'll bet he has the old one at home still if you want it...."

I'm halfway through my preprogrammed "No, can't do rigid vang because of the sliding gooseneck" response when it hits me like a ton of bricks.... SLIDING GOOSENECK!!!! SON OF A B....

Ten minutes later, reworked a few of the fasteners on the mast track, and the boom now travels about 5" lower than it did. Bloody marvelous. Why on earth did that not occur to me LAST season? It's going to be a fine summer, boys.

[dasein668]

Jeez, I thought I was the only bonehead to post on this board! ;-P

At least it'll be an improvement for this season....

[Tim]

Ah yes, we've all had those "Einstein" moments! Glad to hear there's such a convenient and easy solution.

Also note, of course, that none of us other geniuses came up with that solution for you last year either, so you're in good company!

Happy sailing. One week...man, I can't wait till launch! (Even though it's been sorta cold and not that great this spring)

[Jim H 266]

Greetings all:
A few years ago I faced the question of replacing the tired sails of my 1980 Cape Dory. In my area, we almost always sail with a Genoa and finally mine simply blew out. I recall the replacement cost for both main and Genoa was about $3200.00.
The problem began to solve itself when read in "This Old Boat" that meer mortals can actually make their own sails. The first step was to buy a sewing machine. A machine from S**lrit* for $650.00? Never. For $75.00 I bought a Huskvarna sewing machine made of cast iron, it makes a zig zag stitch thru 7 layers of 6oz Dacron.
That winter in my studio/shop, with $360.00 worth of 6oz Dacron, several books...I put together a triple stitched mainsail with two reef point, Hand sewn and leathered tacks...and 135% Genoa with sun cover for roller fulling.
I will not pretend it was easy..crawling around on the concrete floor..trying to slide a big rolled up mess of Dacron thru a sewing machine..There is real learning curve! But the results were pretty good and of course ,I learned a lot about making and adjusting sails.
Since than, I have made 3 sail covers, one jib bag, made two complete setee covers, curtains, line bags, sail bags....all from a $75.00, 25 year old sewing machine. I don't think this is for everyone but for me it was a load of fun and I learned some new tricks.
Jim H on Hearts Ease, No.266