Hose suppliers

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:54 am

Anyone have a lead on a supplier of hoses (potable, bilge, and waste)? Preferably not the hyper-inflated prices of West Marine types? I gotta believe that there is a cheaper source, maybe even outside of the marine industry?

-Britton

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:00 pm

I have been happy with the wire-reinforced water/exhaust hose, fuel hose, and fuel fill hose, that I've bought from Jamestown Distributors. Quality is excellent; price maybe not the very best, but OK (certainly better than West Marine).

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:16 pm

Oddly, Jamestown didn't seem to have a very good selection for bilge/potable water hose on their website.

I am thinking I may incorporate more hard PVC pipe from the local hardware store than I had originally thought rather than hose which makes hose price a lot less important.

On a tangent, does anyone have a feeling about the 'standard' (stiff plastic and rather fragile looking) bilge hose versus the ribbed PVC hose for clearing the bilge? The standard stuff just looks cheesy to me.

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:39 pm

That rigid corrugated plastic stuff has much higher internal resistance than the smooth bore clear plastic with the black reinforcement, so you'll get lower actual throughput with the stiff plasticy stuff.

Post by **Tim** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:40 am

I wouldn't use any of the so-called "bilge pump" hoses. As you say, they are cheesy. And as Nathan says, stay away from any hose with internal corrugations, which drastically affect the flow rate. I currently have the clear hose with the big external black ribs, but I don't like it much and wouldn't use it again. It tears very easily in between the corrugations, and is hard to clamp with its bumpy outside surface.

The same hose you use for potable water will work for most bilge pump applications, as will any other quality hose. Of course you want a hose that can withstand suction without collapse, so some sort of internal reinforcement is required. Radiator hose from the auto parts store would work fine. So would any nice wet exhaust hose.

If you like the clear poly hose with the internal threads that reinforce it, you can often find this at your local big box. I have no idea how price and quality compare with the stuff at the marine store.

I prefer a white hose for potable water, though, as it prevents the transmission of light that can exacerbate algae growth inside the water hoses. I got my white reinforced potable water hose at Hamilton Marine.

For sanitation, I am determined to use PVC pipe in my next installation (with appropriate hose "shock absorbers", of course). I am all done with expensive, stiff, and worthless sanitation hose.

David VanDenburgh · Post by **David VanDenburgh** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:07 am

Tim wrote:For sanitation, I am determined to use PVC pipe in my next installation (with appropriate hose "shock absorbers", of course). I am all done with expensive, stiff, and worthless sanitation hose.

Tim,

I'm reassured by your statement. I finally ended up using PVC to complete the installation of a new holding tank aboard Ariel at the beginning of this season, and I was worried that it might be taboo! I, too, was frustrated with the "expensive, stiff, and worthless sanitation hose" that wouldn't make even the slightest bend without putting too much strain on one of my tank fittings. The PVC, on the other hand, was great to work with; a little heat and the piece of pipe made a beautiful but subtle jog through the bulkhead, where it attaches to the expensive, stiff stuff.

David

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:32 am

I was under the impression that PVC did a poor job of containing odors from the waste. Are you all saying that the expensive waste hose does a poor job as well so why bother?

I had been thinking of the Multiflex (clear hose with black exterior ribs) but a little testing the other day suggested that the clear hose material was actually pretty soft and subject to puncture quite easily. I think it looks tougher than it is. At $2.59 a foot it isn't the cheapest stuff either.

David, I hadn't considered the ability of PVC pipe to bend with a little heat. That opens up a lot of inexpensive possibilities for my plumbing system. Maybe short sections of hose to account for a litttle pipe movement with the rest all hard PVC pipe is the answer.

Thanks.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:35 am

bcooke wrote:I was under the impression that PVC did a poor job of containing odors from the waste.

Do you ever smell waste from the pipes in your house?

Post by **dasein668** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:21 am

The only complaints and warnings about using pvc in place of sanitation hose on a boat are from people who've never done it. Typical. I know numerous people who have used pvc onboard and have been thrilled with the results.

Sanitation hose does, in my experience, not do a good job at containing odors. Go out to your boat and rub a nice fresh cloth along a piece of sanitation hose that has been in place and used regularly for 6 months or more. Then stick the cloth to your nose and inhale deeply. I dare you.

I know that the "Head Lady" hates (or used to) the idea of pvc pipe in marine plumbing applications because she is afraid that it will leak--and hence, stink--iif memory serves. This hasn't been born out by the experience of people that I've talked to who have actually used the stuff however.

Dasein will be plumbed with pvc when I get around to redoing the sanitation system.

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:01 am

A good source for a variety of tubing is www.usplastic.com .

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:38 am

PVC pipe ... great stuff. Just make sure to use the Schedule 40 stuff as it is a LOT tougher than the Class 200, which is used in underground sprinkler systems.

I found this on the net: a flexible Schedule 40 PVC pipe.
http://www.plumbingproducts.com/spaflex.html

Has anyone on the forum experience with this type? Being flexible it may be an even better solution to boat plumbing.
Just a thought...

Ancient Race · Post by **Ancient Race** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:02 pm

bcooke wrote:Anyone have a lead on a supplier of hoses (potable, bilge, and waste)? Preferably not the hyper-inflated prices of West Marine types? I gotta believe that there is a cheaper source, maybe even outside of the marine industry?

-Britton

Britton -

I'm just trying to run up my post count to get out of this bottom scraping job . . . but here and there, I've been directed by those far more knowledgable - including some of the here-assembled - to http://www.mcmaster.com/; who seem to have everything you've always needed, but didn't know where to find.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:29 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I haven't been back to check the sources but I will this weekend. Now I am thinking I will go the PVC route since no one seems to have bad feelings about it. Knowing that the plastic tubing can be coerced into bending opens up a lot of possibilities too.

Now as for increasing your thread count... The benefits are of a rather dubious nature in my experience. I heard rumors about checks being sent out to the top five posters but I haven't seen mine yet.

Dasein will be plumbed with pvc when I get around to redoing the sanitation system

This winter perhaps?

Do you ever smell waste from the pipes in your house?

Well, yes actually, but that is mostly because the black iron piping is heavily corroded. What was your point?...
(kidding of course)

-Britton

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:36 pm

Ah so, Britton - you've got a new avatar. There's no way you're gloating about those tanks is there? Naaah, couldn't be. Never mind.

--- R.

PS I like it better than the distant shot of Prudence, but not as much as the socks ;-)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:01 pm

Me? Never ;-)

Yeah, the socks were good but few on the forum remember how they came into being any more. That is ancient forum lore.

-Britton

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:13 am

The only problem with PVC that I can see is vibration. As long as the PVC is supported, it shouldn't be a problem. I installed it on part of my head pumbing system and so far so good. Much easier to deal with on difficult turns.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:54 pm

You know, something I haven't come across is PVC to hose fittings. Do these exist or am I going to have to go with brass pipe to hose fittings and then brass to PVC fittings.

On a side note. If your tank builder tells you that they are out of 3/4 inch tubing for the outlet fittings but they have 7/8 inch tubing ready to go, don't get impatient. Wait for the 3/4 inch tubing. I am not sure 7/8 inch fittings/hose/tubing even exists. At the moment I am thinking I will have to attach a 1 inch sleeve over the 7/8 inch outlet tubing using some sort of non-toxic adhesive.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:32 am

I don't know offhand if there's a direct PVC to hose barb fitting or not; certainly it's not a common fitting that you'd tend to find at the home center.

You may need to use use a threaded bushing (or possibly a trap adapter) with a glue joint on the PVC and a thread at the other end--and then install your threaded hose barb of choice directly to that. That wouldn't be overly complex or bulky.

As to 7/8" hose or fittings...I don't know. The Internet is your friend here.

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:54 am

Not sure about the PVC pipe part, but you might check Marine East for adapter fittings: http://www.marineeast.com/a_sch/sch_lst.asp?cid=1

(and Britton -- yet another new avatar?)

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:02 am

There are pvc to barb fittings. You will likely need to contact a real plumbing supply store to get them. I know that locally there is a large plumbing contractor from whom a couple of friends were able to get the necessary fittings, but they certainly aren't available at our local mega-marts.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:24 am

I got my PVC-barb fittings at the local "they have it when no one else does" hardware store.

They might not technically be PVC, though. They're not the opaque white plastic like the rest of the fittings. They're yellowish, and somewhat translucent.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:34 am

They might not technically be PVC, though. They're not the opaque white plastic like the rest of the fittings. They're yellowish, and somewhat translucent.

That sounds like CPVC. Higher temp. resistance and few more dollars. Other than that, it is just like PVC (though I doubt the CPVC would be as receptive to slight bending under heat).

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:27 pm

Good to know. I heard just this morning that PVC is not safe for drinking water. Any truth to this?

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:27 pm

Good to know All. I heard just this morning that PVC is not safe for drinking water. Any truth to this?

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:24 pm

Yes, possibly. My wife researched it a bit because our dog took a liking to the PVC pipe fittings I had up at the house, and enjoyed chewing/playing with them. Some research she did seemed to indicate the possibility of toxins. (I didn't look at it, so I can't comment more.)

But why would you want to use PVC for drinking water anyway? Hose works fine for that, and is far easier. It's just the nasty sanitation system that makes sense to use the rigid pipe, since the hose is so lousy to work with and doesn't really work well in the long run anyway.

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:24 pm

I don't believe that is true. I think it is illegal to use for potable water in some places MA for one. I think this is due to the possibility of confusion with seewage lines. In CT the plumbers often used it for water lines. I assume it was ok because it always passed inspection.

Brock

Post by **Tim** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:28 pm

It's also worth noting that PVC sewage pipe is not rated for pressurized use--all the pipes have this stamped right on it.

Brock, are you sure they used PVC in those houses for supply lines? Or was it some other plastic, like PEX? I know things are different in various regions, but I've never heard of such a thing as PVC for supply lines.

In any event, Britton, clearly additional research and information is required here.

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:36 pm

Tim
this was pvc 3/4 inch saw it on alot of commercial work. A little in low end residential
Brock

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:28 pm

But why would you want to use PVC for drinking water anyway?

Just exploring options. The water lines will be sharing space with stored items in ... storage lockers. The rigid pipe might hold up to the abuse of loose engine parts and such better than a hose. I could shield the hose with PVC too but then I am making extra work for myself.

I got the tip about toxicity of PVC from a chemist friend of mine. He said something about something leaching out of something then he drew me a picture of the molecular structure of PVC and I kinda dozed off...

See Tim, unlike you, this will be my last boat. Or, more correctly, my last cruising boat ( no more gunning dories from me on this forum however!) I have to get as good as right as I can on the first try. My mental health couldn't handle doing this all over again. I love it but some people love heroin too and neither are very good for you in the long term. While you build upon your experience with ever larger cruising boats I will be cruising further and further away...

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:41 am

bcooke wrote:I got the tip about toxicity of PVC from a chemist friend of mine.

There are different kinds of PVC, and some may be more suitable for potable water than other. I don't know the ins and outs of it for sure, so I shan't say any more on the topic since I have no facts to back up any thoughts I might have.

Just remember that any rigid pipe you use, whether in the septic or fresh water systems, requires flexible ends at the connections, or else you'll create more problems than you solve.

bcooke wrote:See Tim, unlike you, this will be my last boat...I have to get as good as right as I can on the first try.

One does the best they can in terms of making the elusive "perfect" boat for their current needs, but needs and situations change, goals change, and improved materials make themselves available that sometimes makes one wish to re-challenge themselves. The point is: never say never!

bcooke wrote:I love it but some people love heroin too and neither are very good for you in the long term.

Are you saying I should be going to a something like a methadone clinic for boats?

bcooke wrote:While you build upon your experience with ever larger cruising boats I will be cruising further and further away...

I hope you do! I'll see you out there someday. Cocktails are on me.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:12 am

I was planning on using hose at the ends of the PVC fittings and maybe a short hose section here and there if I thought the line was getting too long and hull flexing might strain the pipe. PVC seems a bit flexible but I don't want to find out how far with my precious water supply.

I should have edited that comment about being a last boat. Tim, you are right, never say never. Part of my design considerations for the Triton is to keep it open to different types of sailing. I don't want to be stuck with a heavy cruiser if I find myself married with six kids and only weekends for daysailing. The Triton is a very versatile boat and I want to keep it that way. One the other hand I can't imagine being able to afford the time and money to basically rebuild a new boat over an old hull; and frankly I don't think I really have the talent for it. I love the design challenge but it takes me forever to figure out how to make it all work together.

My 'next' boat will probably be a small boat built from scratch. It is just so much fun to see a boat being born from raw materials. To go from nothing to a real live boat in the basement is a magical thing. Maybe I will get that sense from the Triton but I haven't done it yet so I can't comment.

Tim, I would hold off on the methadone clinic until your addiction starts to impact your life negatively. As long as you are managing it I see no reason not to continue. And I will hold you to that cocktails promise!

And I still haven't found a really cheap source of hose for the project. There are still a couple of industrial suppliers I can try. I can't stop believing that there is a non-marine store out there that won't charge marine prices for what should be rather common hose. The Home Despots and Loewes in my area have a pretty poor selection; just odd bits and lengths.

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:20 am

Tim, just how beefy is the PEX you used on the house? Would that address Britton's concerns about durability?

As far as the PVC chase goes, I don't think that's really that much more work, and might be a good idea for not only your water, but your electrical runs...

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:25 am

bcooke wrote:And I still haven't found a really cheap source of hose for the project. There are still a couple of industrial suppliers I can try. I can't stop believing that there is a non-marine store out there that won't charge marine prices for what should be rather common hose. The Home Despots and Loewes in my area have a pretty poor selection; just odd bits and lengths.

Did you check the ubiquitous McMaster-Carr? I seem to remember they carry a whole section of industrial food-related goods.

Barring that, you could always resort to garden hose....

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:40 am

Just how much hose do you plan on using????

The expensive stuff is the white waste line, and if you go the PVC route you should use less than 24" for various flex connections.
The clear plastic potable water hose is cheap as chips, and even if it weren't.... I can't see the head and galley supply lines consuming more than 25' or so.

Even if you found a source that was $0.50/ft cheaper, you're chasing a savings of $15. You'll spend 4x that much in hose clamps. Gotta put a dollar figure on your TIME spent, even here in the land of insane DIY addicts!

Come to think of it, finding a discount source for (proper) hose clamps WOULD be time well spent!!!! ;)

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:49 am

Figment wrote:finding a discount source for (proper) hose clamps WOULD be time well spent!!!!

Ain't that God's own truth!

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:59 am

A quick search on McMasterCarr shows that they have what claim to be ALL 316 stainless clamps. Not AWAB though. I'd be interested to see what these really look like though. Price is 9.88 for 10 up to 1 3/4 inch compared to 23.99 for same size AWAB at Hamilton....

McMaster doesn't indicate if they have a rolled edge or smooth band like the nice AWABs...

Ancient Race · Post by **Ancient Race** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:35 am

dasein668 wrote: McMaster doesn't indicate if they have a rolled edge or smooth band like the nice AWABs...

AWAB lists McMaster-Carr as a supplier of their 316 clamps . . . Search for "Type 316 Stainless Steel Nonperforated Worm-Drive Hose and Tube Clamps" also "Type 430 Stainless Steel Nonperforated Worm-Drive Hose and Tube Clamps"

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:43 am

McMaster has the AWABs. I've gotten them from them in the past. You need to look for 316 non-perf bands though. They do not identify them by name brand That is the thing about McMaster-Carr-- they very rarely identify by brand. You really have to be sure of your specs or you will end up with something else.

BTW: I found their prices for AWAB hose clamps have gone up in the last year. Last I looked Jamestown Dist. had the best prices. But that was 6 mos. ago.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:54 pm

dasein668 wrote:Tim, just how beefy is the PEX you used on the house? Would that address Britton's concerns about durability?

You could use PEX on board. Whale makes a version for boats.

You could use commonly available PEX tubing; the issue with household-based PEX isn't the tubing, which is virtually indestructable; it's the fittings. I wouldn't trust the crimp fittings on a boat, that's for sure.

The Whale system uses compression fittings, I believe. I think there are compression fittings available for regular PEX also, though I didn't use these. I've never loved compression fittings and thought they were prone to leakage.

I haven't looked into using this on boats yet. I remember the Whale system being new a few years ago, but I don't know much about it. Nor do I know much about other types of fittings available for standard PEX. I made all the connections in my house with the standard Zurn Pex copper crimp rings--which, like I say, I would never ever trust on a boat. It's a leap of faith in the house to begin with.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:45 pm

Mike wrote:Just how much hose do you plan on using????

Yeah, I am being cheap here. I could see sinking $100 in hose which just irks me. Of course I will happily drop that much on a single seacock so go figure...

Rough estimates:
1.5 inch fresh water hose = 20 feet (to supply both tanks)
0.5 inch fresh water hose = 30 feet ( to feed aft to the galley)
0.75+ inch vent hose = 10 feet

1.5 inch bilge hose = 30 feet (3 bilge pumps - deep keel Triton)
0.5 inch bilge hose = 10 feet

1.5 inch sanitation hose = 2 feet (to make connections to hard pipe and short sections
0.75 inch sanitation hose = 1 foot (black water vent line)

Probably a hundred AWAB clamps costing thousands of dollars to hold it all in place. I will definitely check out the McMaster and Carr price. I was getting them from Hamilton Marine before.

Barring that, you could always resort to garden hose....

Garden hose leaves a funny taste. McMaster seemed to carry a limited selection of hose but then again I made a pretty quick check through their online catalog. Maybe I should try again.

I am just over obsessing here. Don't mind me...

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:42 pm

...and frankly I don't think I really have the talent for it.

Feel free to contradict me here...

Post by **Tim** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:55 am

bcooke wrote:Don't mind me...

We never do!

bcooke wrote:I could see sinking $100 in hose which just irks me.

Hose is an unfulfilling thing to buy. Consequently, it's an expense that one wants to minimize. It's natural.

However, if you saved $10 you'd be fortunate. All that effort, and you can maybe buy lunch for 1-1/2 days with your bounty.

Clamp savings might add up more quickly. But the prices at McMaster are barely better than Hamilton's on single clamps.

Here's a link to the McMaster catalog page with the AWAB clamps.

316 stainless steel nonperforated worm drive hose clamps

Post by **Tim** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:01 am

dasein668 wrote:A quick search on McMasterCarr shows that they have what claim to be ALL 316 stainless clamps. Not AWAB though. I'd be interested to see what these really look like though. Price is 9.88 for 10 up to 1 3/4 inch compared to 23.99 for same size AWAB at Hamilton....

McMaster doesn't indicate if they have a rolled edge or smooth band like the nice AWABs...

These clamps are the the standard type with the perforated band and screw--the kind that eats hose. Definitely not the same thing as the smooth band AWAB.

At least these are all 316 stainless, including the screw. The Ideal brand hose clamps sold everywhere and commonly seen on boats are 304 stainless, with a non-stainless screw.

See the post above for the link to the AWAB clamps at McMaster.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:25 am

Tim wrote:
dasein668 wrote:Tim, just how beefy is the PEX you used on the house? Would that address Britton's concerns about durability?
You could use PEX on board. Whale makes a version for boats.

You could use commonly available PEX tubing; the issue with household-based PEX isn't the tubing, which is virtually indestructable; it's the fittings. I wouldn't trust the crimp fittings on a boat, that's for sure.

The Whale system uses compression fittings, I believe. I think there are compression fittings available for regular PEX also, though I didn't use these. I've never loved compression fittings and thought they were prone to leakage.

I haven't looked into using this on boats yet. I remember the Whale system being new a few years ago, but I don't know much about it. Nor do I know much about other types of fittings available for standard PEX. I made all the connections in my house with the standard Zurn Pex copper crimp rings--which, like I say, I would never ever trust on a boat. It's a leap of faith in the house to begin with.

I used the Whale hose on the plumbing on my boat. I like it and aside from a few initial problems that were my own doing, it works great and doesn't leak.

The trick to these fittings is that you have to make a clean 90 deg cut and insert the PEX ALL THE WAY IN the fitting. There is initial resistence, but once you get the hose past that, there is still more to go. Once it is in all the way, pull on the hose (it won't come out), and Robert is your mother's brother!

BTW: the Whale compression fittings are known elsewhere as "John Guest" fittings. They are very hard to come by in larger sizes (like the 12 and 15mm Whale sizes) here in the US.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:01 pm

That's about a HUNDRED DOLLARS worth of hose clamps for the exhaust and fuel systems, and because of my own dunderheaded underestimation it still isn't enough! By the time I add in a few more for the cockpit drains and fuel VENT (I always forget about the vent!), I'll be in for another 40 or so.

I know they're critical and there's no sense in skimping, but MAN that smarts!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:04 pm

I have a whole cardboard box full of those AWAB cartons. I refuse to think about what that cost me.

-Britton

Columbia34 · Post by **Columbia34** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:07 pm

I need/want to replace my fresh water lines in our boat, was considering using just clear braided hose from lowes or buying the white RV fill hoses and cutting them into the lengths i need, unless there is some where i can buy the white fresh water hose at in bulk. thanks.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:37 am

Amateur!

Post by **Tim** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:45 am

Columbia34 wrote:I need/want to replace my fresh water lines in our boat, was considering using just clear braided hose from lowes or buying the white RV fill hoses and cutting them into the lengths i need, unless there is some where i can buy the white fresh water hose at in bulk. thanks.

I like the white reinforced hose since the opaque sheathing theoretically helps prevent algae buildup inside the hoses, since it blocks more of the light. With clear hose, this can become an issue over time.

There's nothing special about the clear reinforced hose seen at the marine store, so you can buy that wherever--it's all the same stuff, more or less. The white version can be tougher to come by, though.

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