Basking in the heat of winter

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:25 pm

I noticed that Jamestown distributors is running a special on indoor propane heaters. I haven't used one before but I wonder if it might just be the ticket for warming the boat for weekend projects and heating the one car garage during the week, for a couple of hours at a time, for some projects there.

Any thoughts?

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:01 pm

It's a damp way to heat...

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:29 pm

Good point. Varnishing would be out of the question.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:44 pm

Britton,

For the purposes you propose, I think it will work well. I have a propane heater that resembles a jet engine - plug it it, turn on the propane, hit the ignitor, and away it goes, sending out a blast of hot air. Last year I used one under my tarps during the "shoulder season" to heat things up for quick projects.

For long heating periods, Nathan's instincts are right - water vapor is a serious byproduct of propane combustion, so if the heater is not vented to the outside, condensation is the inevitable result. Given that, it's probably not the best solution if you're using epoxy or painting, etc. since water vapor will collect on your working surface.

John

Post by **Tim** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:38 am

If you want to warm the interior of your boat up during the winter, it's hard to beat one or more of those electric ceramic heaters. Those things rock, and are very safe since they stay cool to the touch and have no exposed heating elements. If the boat is cold to begin with, they can take an hour or so to bring the temperature up, and the hull itself will never warm, but the heaters make it very workable inside. The safety of these particular heaters is a nice thing too. I used one to continue working on Glissando's interior in the winter during the original project in the plastic shed.

We are currently heating our camper with two of these, since the furnace has decided to go on strike. (With only a week till we move into the house, we just have to get by in the meantime...) Even with nights in the upper 20s, the two have no problem heating the 32' camper to a warm (even overly warm) temperature. They are inexpensive, starting around $20 and running to about $50 for a fancy one. These use plenty of juice, however, so you pretty much need one circuit for each one. At home, the cost of running these long-term might bother you, but at the boatyard this won't be a concern.

Another alternative for a larger space, like a fabric tent or garage, is one of the jet engine construction heaters that run on kerosene or diesel. The newer ones are surprisingly un-fumy, though ventilation is always a concern.

Non direct-vented propane heaters are good for quick bursts of heat, but for long term heating the moisture problem will rear its ugly head. Direct vent heaters are a whole different story, but aren't really applicable for what you're talking about. And anything using an open flame or element brings with it certain safety concerns, particularly in the confines of your boat or if you are using any solvents or solvent-based products.

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:59 am

Tim wrote:If you want to warm the interior of your boat up during the winter, it's hard to beat one or more of those electric ceramic heaters. Those things rock, and are very safe since they stay cool to the touch and have no exposed heating elements. If the boat is cold to begin with, they can take an hour or so to bring the temperature up, and the hull itself will never warm, but the heaters make it very workable inside.

I'll back this up. I used one?Tim's, in fact?when I did the wiring and head renovation work on Dasein. It was plenty toasty under the cover with just one of those things cranking away.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:35 am

Britton, I thought you were going to use the heater in your boat shelter, not inside the boat itself. I wouldn't use the jet engine heater inside the boat.

Another option I've heard works well inside the boat are the oil-filled electric heaters. They take a while to heat up, but they produce nice heat and they're safe. I use one in my office, and I'm planning to try one in my boat this winter.

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:25 pm

Could you use the propane for an initial blast of heat inside the shelter, and then shut it off and use the ceramic heaters to heat the inside of the boat?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:14 pm

Well, I actually have one of those ceramic heaters already. I just assumed it wouldn't be enough to warm up the boat much let alone my uninsulated garage. I agree that the safety feature is nice. My yard warns that excessive use of electricity will result in extra fees though I am not sure how they can measure it right at my boat. For just the times I am there I guess it wouldn't be too bad. Turn it on, go have a nice breakfast at the local cafe and come back in two hours with a full belly and a warm hull. I will have to try that.

What I don't have is a boat shelter. The money I was going to use on a shelter went into other boat supplies. I decided to live under the same deck tarp setup as I have used in the past since I can just re-use the same materials. Most of my work is inside the boat anyway so as long as I have standing headroom in the cockpit and stooping headroom along the deck I am happy enough.

I will try my ceramic heater. Look into the oil filled heaters and consider a jet engine if all else fails. Thanks.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:16 pm

bcooke wrote: My yard warns that excessive use of electricity will result in extra fees though I am not sure how they can measure it right at my boat. For just the times I am there I guess it wouldn't be too bad. Turn it on, go have a nice breakfast at the local cafe and come back in two hours with a full belly and a warm hull. I will have to try that.

When your extension cord melts itself a rut in the yard ice, they might put their hand out. :)

The breakfast plan is a good one. My weekend boat-warmup time has usually been spent eating breakfast on Saturday mornings, and then hitting the gym on Sunday mornings to work off Saturday's lead-balloon of texas toast and sausage!

Don't sweat the "boat shelter" issue. Unless said shelter is an actual building, the TRULY cold days will be just too cold to work effectively no matter how many electrons you burn. On these days a shed is as cold as a tarp. The heaters are helpers, not miracles.

I'm a huge fan of my jet-engine heater, despite the roaring noise and noxious fumes. I found my best use of the jet engine was to use it to warm the lead ballast. Pump a whole lot of BTUs into that thermal mass in a half-hour and then let them slowly release for the next two or three hours.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:58 pm

Of course I am super tough and don't need the heat for myself. I need it for the adhesives. If I can get 40 degrees I think I am okay and if I can get 50 then I am laughing.

Ah, fond memories...

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:24 am

Britton, your shelter is very similar to what I used, and the propane "jet engine" heater worked really nice under mine. It looks like there's good ventilation around the sides of the shelter.

What I used to do is start the heater up and aim it down into the boat through the companionway for a while to get it heated up a bit, then put the nozzle on a cockpit seat to heat the air in the shelter. A small heater inside the boat will supplement things nicely.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:11 am

Not to mention that a diesel bulkhead heater in the boat can be used on the hard just as easily as on the water?
That's what a friend of mine does anyway.

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:09 pm

Take note of the following, from WEST System Publication 000-915, Cold Temperature Bonding:

Avoid unvented open-flame heaters that burn kerosene or fuel oil. Unburned hydrocarbons have been known to contaminate bonding surfaces, and elevated moisture and CO2 levels may inhibit epoxy?s cure.

Regards,

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:11 pm

With plastic taped over all the window openings and some more draped over the companionway my little ceramic heater seemed to work okay. When the temperature drops another twenty degrees I will be in trouble though.

I have a halogen work lamp in the boat for working in the evenings and I decided to leave it on while I went shopping as it produces a lot of heat as well. While driving around I was thinking that an unattended light might not be a good idea. When I got back the light had indeed fallen over and was lying face down on my temporary plywood cabin sole. The sole now has a blackened spot several inches across. If it had ignited I would be looking for a new boat and running from about a hundred other owners with burnt up boats. Halogen work lamps will only be used on my boat when I am there to keep an eye on it. That was just a little too close.

I might be able to make better use of my money by working around the cold issue rather than warming up the boat too much. I have a few projects that can be done at home for those really cold months (new standing rigging, new sea hood, etc). Or I might invest in a jet engine. It sounds like they would definitely provide the BTU's I need. Interesting note from WEST. I wouldn't have considered the chemistry conflict with the heating unit. I could use construction adhesive, and possibly paint if it didn't get too humid, but I would feel pretty empty if I couldn't mix up a pot of epoxy now and then.

A diesel bulkhead heater might be nice but I wouldn't use it under cover because of the fume issue. It might get kind of hard to breathe on deck. I would also have to buy a diesel heater and I already have a solid fuel bulkhead heater that I plan on reinstalling when I have a finished bulkhead to mount it to. A few years ago and before I had a cover I used my solid fuel heater a couple of times. The yard didn't like seeing smoke coming out of my chimney. I didn't like that the deck fitting was incorrectly installed and my cabin top coring was turning into charcoal.

Thanks all,

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:00 am

bcooke wrote:I have a halogen work lamp in the boat for working in the evenings and I decided to leave it on while I went shopping as it produces a lot of heat as well. While driving around I was thinking that an unattended light might not be a good idea. When I got back the light had indeed fallen over and was lying face down on my temporary plywood cabin sole. The sole now has a blackened spot several inches across. If it had ignited I would be looking for a new boat and running from about a hundred other owners with burnt up boats. Halogen work lamps will only be used on my boat when I am there to keep an eye on it. That was just a little too close.

Yikes! Those halogen work lights are handy and put out huge amounts of light, but they get extremely hot and can be dangerous in this sort of situation. I don't ever leave those unattended. Better safe than sorry, I guess!

bcooke wrote:I might be able to make better use of my money by working around the cold issue rather than warming up the boat too much. I have a few projects that can be done at home for those really cold months (new standing rigging, new sea hood, etc). Or I might invest in a jet engine. It sounds like they would definitely provide the BTU's I need. Interesting note from WEST. I wouldn't have considered the chemistry conflict with the heating unit. I could use construction adhesive, and possibly paint if it didn't get too humid, but I would feel pretty empty if I couldn't mix up a pot of epoxy now and then.

No matter what you do, there are at least a couple months during the winter where temperature sensitive work on an outdoor boat--shelter or no shelter--is not going to be practical. At best, you can hold the cold barely at bay, but it's asking a lot to try and do epoxy or paintwork during the coldest months.

I think you're right that you will do better if you refocus during the coldest period, and try to do things at home or projects that don't require heat--grinding for paint prep, for example, or measuring for wooden pieces that you can build at home. The only solution that truly allows year-round work is a real building.

When you get to the stage in your project where you're installing water, electrical, or other systems on board, you'll find that the small heaters will be adequate for the task if you give them a chance to warm the boat up.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:14 am

Tim wrote: At best, you can hold the cold barely at bay...

On my first read, this was "you can hold the cold barley at bay...", and I'm thinking to myself, "I thought Britton was a Scotch man?"

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:41 pm

hehe... Absolutely correct on the Scotch.

I put some new silver tarps (thanks for that link Tim, those are excellent tarps) on the boat today. The boat looks mighty fine in her new wardrobe. Strange to see her naked to the sunlight for the first time in a year. I could almost swear it was warmer inside after the switch even though the temps were dropping.

Now I am thinking I need to find some old blankets and just drape them over the cabin.

Sad day, I broke down the epoxy station today lest I be tempted to mix up a batch below the acceptable temperatures. I did enjoy the opportunity of mixing up a pint of epoxy in a pint sized container with no worries of creating a fire bomb. I don't know if that is good or not...

-Britton

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:08 pm

bcooke wrote:Sad day, I broke down the epoxy station today lest I be tempted to mix up a batch below the acceptable temperatures.

You don't have to heat all the air in your whole boat tent up to acceptable working temperatures for epoxy -- just the part of the boat you are working on at the moment. For that you can use a radiant heater (aka heat lamp) such as this:

From: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... 3456,43465

I'm using one of these, clamped to the collarties of my "tent" over the part of the boat I'm working on, and so far it's working great. Of course, I do store the resin and hardener in a heated space so they're ready to mix when I am...

Regards,

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:09 pm

Those marvin heaters are great!! 110V and will roast you out. (clarification added...they will roast you out if you are in their beam....they will not appreciably raise the temp in he room for a long time!!)

Mine is mounted on an arm like you see at the dentist so it moves side to side and I can aim it. I have three across the garage back wall. The one on the arm gets focused on whatever I am working on...or the tool box before I get started. (MMM WARM TOOLS!)