Locating Anchor Winch

[Quetzalsailor]

Below are pictures of Quetzal's chain locker and foredeck. We have purchased a Maxwell RC8 winch which mounts through the deck; motor and transmission are below deck. The instructions are picky about fairlead and orientation of the winch with respect to the rode. +/- 5 deg horizontally and zip vertically. Means that I'll have to build a tapered mounting block to tip the winch up to line with the rode. They're also picky about the anchor roller; they say that the anchor has to self-launch rather than sit serenely in the roller as mine does. The area of the foredeck forward of the forepeak bulkhead is cored with Airex foam, probably an inch thick (but I'll be finding out).

There are two possibilities, shown in the pictures, for locating the winch: one forward of the vent and one aft. Forward seems like lots of stuff in one place. Aft would dump the rode just inside the bulkhead door. Additionally, I have one foot switch and a flush hose connection to find room for. I don't see any need to change the amply-sized LeComte cleats; Maxwell says you must cleat the rode to take the load off the winch. If I ever go to all-chain rode, I'll have to find room for a chain stopper.

The amount of tip that I'll have to build into mounting block is about a 1/2" in the length of the winch. I think that I'll make it in a piece of McMaster-Carr fiberglass and paint it white. An alternative would be to make it in Teak, like the trim ring on the vent, but I think I'd make new trim rings in fiberglass before I re-restore those Teak trims! I don't think I need to make a tapered back-up block for under the deck; surely a flat aluminum back-up plate and tapered washers would be fine.

I bought only one foot switch; I presume I'd use in for 'up'. The winch comes with a bulkhead mounted switch for near the steering position and a pocket wireless switch. It also came with its own breaker and a massive relay box to be mounted 'near the winch but not in the chain locker'.

Comments are welcome! My questions include: is the path of the rode, represented by the green line, clear enough of the cleat and vent? Have I left enough clearance around the winch and cleat? Which position is 'more better'?

[Quetzalsailor]

Ahh, yes, the photographs:

[Figment]

The vent is where the windlass wants to be.

Move the vent.

[earlylight]

Quetzalsailor,

You do not necessarily need to use a chain stopper. A length of 3 strand nylon line spliced to the proper sized chain hook can be used as a snubber to take the load off the windlass by cleating the snubber line to a foredeck cleat if you have an all chain rode.

[Quetzalsailor]

Figue, why say you 'Move the vent?' The winch has to go somewhere along the string as it projects straight aft from the roller. I will admit that I knock the plastic hat off nearly every time I anchor; nothing holds it on but a little friction and I'm remarkably clumsy. If I'd had a say in it, the anchor roller would be to starboard to suit the asymmetry of the winch, but I didn't and I'm neither adding one nor moving the one I've got.

Early, I've seen adverts for the rope and chainclaw and one of the advantages over a chainstopper is that the chain is not enclosed in it. In my case, the distances between the chock and cleat and between roller and cleat, etc. make placing a chainstopper something of a pain because the stopper should be correctly oriented to both roller and chock. This is presuming that one would never leave the rode over the roller when anchoring. Maybe some rollers are robust enough laterally, but mine surely is not.

[Case]

Maybe its just me but most sailboats I see with dorade vents up near the bow... tend to have it offset. Not on center. You could move the dorade vent to starboard and more aft. Then put the winch right where the dorade vent used to be.

I'm not overly keen on chains dragging over a long distance from the anchor roller. Some do this but add a stainless steel plate on the deck to protect it from the chains. I think overall, it may be just easier to move the dorade vent elsewhere and put the winch right there where the dorade vent used to be. You could even do without the dorade vent, too. If the boat gets too musty then you'll just reinstall it.

- Case

[Hirilondë]

I assume you are using some chain? 25 ft.?

When hoisting the anchor with chain, even if just the last 25 feet or so the chain bounces up and down as links cross over the roller and/or around the gypsy. All of the systems I have installed have chafe guards on the deck to keep from wearing out a channel in the deck from this action. None of them have cleats, vents or anything else withing 6 or more inches either side of the path of the rode to assure there is no fowling. I think your present plan of not moving the cleats and vent is looking for trouble.

BTW, of all the electric windlasses I have installed, Maxwell has proven the most reliable and functional of all.

[Quetzalsailor]

Case, thank you for the comments. Sadly, the winch cannot go on center as my eye would suggest is appropriate, because the existing roller is to port and the majority of the winch is to port of the pull.

Jack, your and Case's comments re damage by bouncing chain suggests that the forward position is better, since less chain is free to be flung around. I may indeed need to move the cleats outboard.

The vent stands in a non-skid free area of deck but I will most likely have to remove all the nonskid as I repair cracking (the usual ones at the forward corners of the house and the corners of the cockpit) in the deck prior to repainting. Perhaps the vent can go where the current (what's it called, hawse pipe?) covered hole for the rode is. I was sorta' thinking I'd keep the ability of having two anchors and two rodes in the chain locker (adding the separator, of course).

I've ordered the fiberglass sheet stock from McMaster-Carr. The next bit of fun will be shaping it to the required taper in thickness. Bought 1/2" stock, need 1/2" taper; will epoxy two 1/2" thicknesses together and mill the taper, presumably with the much-reviled-on-this-forum radial arm saw.

[Rachel]

Can you explain more about the taper? I've seen a lot of windlass installs on various plates/pedestals/backers, but I'm not sure I've seen one tapered. But I might be missing the concept, or maybe I just don't have a good eye, or I've been looking at bad installations?

[Hirilondë]

Can you explain more about the taper? I've seen a lot of windlass installs on various plates/pedestals/backers, but I'm not sure I've seen one tapered. But I might be missing the concept, or maybe I just don't have a good eye, or I've been looking at bad installations?

The gypsy of the windlass must be perpendicular to the path of the rode to assure that the rode wants to stay on it and not try to bunch up at the base or slip off the top. A tapered base aligns it such when the deck does not. Depending on the slope of the deck and the height above it that the roller may be, it may or not be necessary. If the deck is cambered it may also be necessary for the base block to be concave to match it. It is rare, but I have made 1 or 2 tapered and concave. I like teak for the base block as shaping wood is easier than most materials. I often leave them unfinished.

[Rachel]

Okay, the light bulb went on as I was reading your post, thanks! For some reason my mind was stuck on the windlasses I've used, which rotate 90º to what you just described (i.e. like a car's wheel vs. like a spinning top). Of course I've seen enough of the other type that I should have visualized it, but I have never mounted one of those.

Thanks for the added description.

Rachel

[Tom Young]

Hi Doug. My windlass came with the boat and is located forward of the bow cleats and a similarly located cowl vent aft. It's an old upright Ideal windlass. I use 40' of chain the rest nylon. It's not set up for hands off self stowing(just a typical deck pipe cover) but with nylon, I doubt it will ever be self stowing anyway(maybe with newer braided rode).

That could be the only drawback, too far forward you won't get as much help from gravity to stow chain and nylon.

Everything happens in front of you, the cleats, the vent etc, and it doesn't take up any more space on the foredeck.

I built a dorade box for the cowl ventilator located using the same deck hole. The main reason being, I located a pressure wash pump below. With a screw in deck plate on the dorade box forward of the deck plate that holds the cowl, I can reach the deck wash nozzle. This also can be used to run a second anchor rode from the forepeak when needed. You may even be able to knock down a pile of chain or rode from there by reaching through.

And of course the dorade box keeps the anchor locker drier than the straight cowl did, rain or spray. Raising it increased air flow through the boat and has helped make it more livable below in all conditions.

You can make it bullet proof by mounting a plate below to seal it off from inside the cabin. It could also be built to house your deck wash fitting.

Looking at your foredeck again, there is more space between the roller and the bow cleats on my boat. It seems the cowl vent might be the best location. Then perhaps a dorade bow aft?

[barrybrown]

My first thought would be to mount it in the aftermost location in order to get the greatest vertical drop for the chain (assuming that you eventually go all chain) that also gives the less congested arrangement on the deck, but considering that you are using a vertical windlass you will need to consider the effect of chain sag on the alignment as the distance from the roller to the windlass increases I don't know enough about vertical windlasses to know the distances or the effects. If it were mine I would change the deck plate for the cowl to a threaded plate which will keep the cowl more secure with limited effort, if your line occasionally hits it it shouldn't effect the operation. Also I would install a deck switch for each direction, it is a small expense to avoid future aggravation. The chain stopper is nice to have for protection of the windlass but with all chain you would not want to rely on it without some sort of shock absorber like a nylon line and chain hook.
Barry

[Figment]

I say move the vent because it's an unneccesary constraint on this installation. If the vent weren't there, you wouldn't be considering locating the windlass so close to that port cleat, would you?

To my eye, the windlass wants to be located almost exactly within the footprint of that vent. The vent also happens to be located pretty much ideally in terms of the fall of the rode in the locker below. My read on those installation constraints is that the rode must enter the windlass within that 5degree window. That dictates orientation of the windlass, but is not a 5degree constraint on the relationship between the rode and the roller. Will a bit of misalignment between roller and rode create problems? Will the anchor be banging into your furler drum? I dunno but it's worth a look.

[Quetzalsailor]

Got my McMaster-Carr slab of fiberglass today and roughed out and epoxied the two thicknesses for the base. I'll mill the taper tomorrow (it's to be raining) and we'll have a look at the thing again on Wednesday.

A concurrent project is freeing up the sliding settee. It had gone from difficult to move in 2004 to all but immovable last week. Turns out that the thing slides in heavy aluminum channels which were fastened to the adjacent bulkheads with 1/2" x #10 bronze flathead screws. A couple of the screws had backed out after only 40 years, and were carving the hidden ends of the settee.

[Rachel]

A couple of the screws had backed out after only 40 years, and...

Geez, nothing lasts anymore... ;)

[Quetzalsailor]

Progress:

Milling a taper with a simple jig. Shop vac collecting chips and dust. Held the workpiece with a push-stick.

Finished milling.

Belt sanding both faces.

Rough-cut, ground the perimeter. Hole-saw and sand the interior w/ simple jig on the drill press table.

Whew! Fit the first time.

Coated out in neat epoxy, basically a fill coat for better finishing of the 'glass

[Rachel]

Nice photo report! I like the kidney bean shape, and it's interesting to see how you use the drill press and other jigs. That's something I rarely think (or have the experience) to do.

In the shots where you show the (radial arm?) saw and you are milling the taper, how are you actually doing that? Are you just shifting the piece from left to right and then making cut after cut from top to bottom, slowly slicing off more as you go?

Rachel

[Quetzalsailor]

Yes, Rachel, multiple cross-cuts is an old trick for doing dadoes or making tenons on the end of something, or half lapping; whatever. It's a bit sloppy, but an effective way to make such a reduction in thickness with a table saw or a radial arm saw. Even a hand-held carpenter's radial saw can do such a dadoe. With wood, one need not remove everything but skip a distance one chooses by one's tolerance for clean-up of the remaining fins of material. You can use a dadoe blade or similar instead of just an ordinary carbide blade as I did for the fiberglass.

I should note, however, that making these pieces of McMaster-Carr's fiberglass has totally dulled this 10" 60-tooth blade and its now relegated to the to-be-sharpened pile. Toward the end, each pass was slower, harder on the motor and you could see sparks as the blade advanced through the 'glass.

Below are pictures of the finished assembly of the top end. Figment was indeed right: I shall wish to move the vent. On the other hand, I can live with it. One only uses the crank on center to adjust the clutch for free-fall or for under dead-load release (for when the anchor has been pulled into the roller). The off-center hole is for cranking the rode up after the winch is disconnected by means of releasing the clutch. Sounds perfectly dreadful! I'm going to miss the pull-it-up-by-hand convenience!

[Rachel]

Thanks for the tips, Quetzal; I really would like to learn more about how to use tools to make joints and that sort of thing. That fiberglass board is a bit nasty on blades, isn't it.

Rachel

[Hirilondë]

Hmmm, that is the first set of pictures you have shown of the assembled windlass. It has a chain gypsy only? I had assumed (yeah, not a good thing) that you had one with the line drum on top of the gypsy. How will this work with a line/chain combo?

[Quetzalsailor]

Dave, I understand that a combo chain-rope gypsy is pretty standard these days. And, I can add the drum any time. The chain and rope is spliced together so that it will pass through the gypsy without incident. Additionally, I bought a new pre-spliced chain and braided rode. The braid is supposed to collapse more neatly into the heap in the locker and be less prone to jamming coils. Previous use with a normal cable-laid (twisted) rode was that I'd hardly ever use more than about 150' of the 250' rode. I removed the rode from the chain locker to make a more comfy place for me to grovel as I worked from below and getting it out required several trips from locker to deck freeing the stiff tangle of overturned coils. I'm sure glad that I was not trying to anchor in the dark in a nasty emergency!

I do wonder a bit about splicing rope to chain. It means that the rope strands have to make a 180 deg turn around the 5/16" link rather than around a nice big thimble.

[Figment]

Yes, but that chain splice is a fun bit of spikework, renew it every year or two at your leisure.

[Tom Young]

I do wonder a bit about splicing rope to chain. It means that the rope strands have to make a 180 deg turn around the 5/16" link rather than around a nice big thimble.

Great install Doug. I don't see a wear problem in the rope to chain splices on my 3 strand. I do renew it every few years. As I cut it open, the interior never shows wear on the link. The exterior of the splice gets the wear. My chain to rope splices aren't too pretty to start with though.

Regardless of how I attach the chain to rode(splice or thimble), I always give that a look before I drop it over the roller as I'm sure you will.

[Quetzalsailor]

Here's the finished install below:

And the controller and wireless radio is mounted under the Vee berth:

[boatsnh]

If you have the 8 strand "brait" it's great stuff...Drops into a little pile - no hockles - and easy on the hands ( manhandling onto the cleat - hopefully not raising the anchor). Interesting how they splice it back onto the last link . Seems to have no issues & the line has a lot of stretch. Very much Worth the premium over 3 strand for a windlass. I found the line likes to have good chafe gear if the weather pipes up or you will end up with little "burned looking spots" on the line -- more so than 3 strand.... Nice install.
Mike

[Quetzalsailor]

Used the winch for anchoring and retrieving last night for the first time and for anchoring tonight. Works well, so far has not beaten the deck to death, nor even shown any tendency toward that. I did manage to wire the remote/wireless backwards so up is down, etc.; easy (in theory) to reverse the leads from the radio to the relay.

Pretty cool to manually lower the anchor so that it's hanging from the roller and then walk aft alongside Sue at the helm and press the buttons on the remote! I did not rig the anchor in accordance with the instructions so that it does not drop off and back on to the at-rest position like they do on powerboats.

I need to play with the clutch; it does not have enough oomph to lift the anchor onto the roller. On the other hand, it won't pull so hard as to destroy something!

95.99% satisfactory.

The washdown pump is a nice toy, too. But it's not nearly as powerful and the (included) hose nozzle is way on the cheap side. (Pro Blaster!)