Alcohol Stove Advice ??

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hriehl1
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Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by hriehl1 »

Hinterhoeller HR 28 (similar to a Triton)

Continuing my budget-driven refit. I need to replace the 2-burner propane camp stove PO used (fed by a 15-foot hose to the outboard well where he used 1# canisters).

We'll (mostly) weekend with a desire to prepare comfort-food style hot meals... right between gourmet and Spaghetti-Os. We'll install a 2-burner counter-top unit... don't (yet) want to get into carpentry for an oven unit.

So... looking for some advice from those of you who have been there,done that. I am a bit wary of the PO's propane setup, with no proper storage and no selanoid safety system... he says he simply disconnected the hose from the canister after each stove use). So I'm thinking alcohol (or maybe kerosene??).

1. Older pressure alcohol units abound on E-Bay at decent prices (search Item 220735745897). I've read they are finicky and can flare up. Any experiences?

2. Origo-style canister alcohol designs seem safer (wick-feed, not pressure) but cost way more. Thoughts on these?

3. Alcohol is also reputedly less-hot than propane, though BTU ratings on the Origos and propane units are very close (6.5 to 7K BTUs). Experiences?

4. Is baking on these just out-of-the-question? I've read good things about the stovetop Omnia Oven, and fold-up camp ovens that sit over burners have been around for years. Our baking would be mostly muffins or easy breads like beer bread or soda bread, maybe a small roast, maybe some baked potatoes.

5. Is kerosene a viable alternative? Am I too spooked about propane when used in 1# canisters and kept in an outboard well that vents?

Thanks all...
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by tpl »

please consider kerosene as a 2-burner countertop. This was our deal
during 60 thousand miles, circumnavigation included: no restaurants. The
fuel is safe, hot, obtainable, inexpensive, and loaded with BTUs: a pressure kero
burner is hotter than butane, and much hotter than alcohol.

Optimus has a good 2-burner stove #55. This stove is gimballed longitudinally,
with a counterweight, necessary for fore-and-aft installation to use underway.

Perhaps the stove is expensive, but this is a lifetime investment. After 25 years
ours still cleans up good as new.

:-(:wrap the veggie pan in blankets before you put on the bonito):-

bon appetit
nature loves to hide (heraclitus)
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Rachel
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by Rachel »

I agree that a kerosene stove can be a good setup, but I would also consider other options since he/she is not making a circumnavigation type cruise to foreign and out-of-the-way places; but is talking about weekend sailing from a New England port (going by his/her profile) (that said, I found propane to also work well for the former type of cruise).

hriehl1, before I give my thoughts let me ask... is cooking underway a high priority for you? Or is it more of a get to your destination, get anchored, and then make dinner sort of thing (with maybe lunch underway being uncooked sandwiches, etc.)? If cooking at anchor, do your anchorages tend to be sheltered or rolly?

Would you rather have a more complicated, space intensive installation with no muss/fuss when it comes time to cook? Or a simpler installation that requires a bit more attention when you go to start cooking? if you install propane, even if it's an approved installation, is it going to be a worry in the back of your mind? Also, are you sensitive to odors underway, if cooking underway?

Rather than me droning on ;), if you wouldn't mind giving a bit more info I would be happy to post my thoughts.

Rachel
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by Tim »

The only thing I can say unequivocally about stove types is to run away from the old-fashioned pressurized alcohol stoves that you used to see in the 70s. Junk. Ever wonder why there might be so many for such "deals" on eBay?

If you want simple, get one of the modern alcohol stoves (i.e. Origo), which have a good reputation. Spend the money. This sounds about perfect to satisfy all your goals.
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hriehl1
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by hriehl1 »

Rachel: The "get there and then cook", and "cook breakfrast then leave" approach is the use case. I do not envision much, if any, cooking while underway. Plus, we're all-day coffee drinkers and I am looking for a single-burner gimballed propane unit that hangs on a bulkhead for use underway; a Sea Swing, Seacook, Mini-Galley or similar that could be also be used, if needed in rolly conditions, for soup, stew etc.

Tim: That's basically what I thought. I will steer clear of them.

I'll also confess however, that part of the fun of ownership (for me) is the game of trying to keep investment low. I'll spend what it takes for safety and I'd never buy a used block or lifelines. But for non-critical items I enjoy "the hunt" in salvage yards, Craigslist, eBay, etc. I take great pleasure in "the deal".

So now assume an Origo 2-burner wick-style stove... what baking solutions should I consider?

Thanks
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by Quetzalsailor »

I restored our three burner LeComte knockoff of a Luke stove/oven. The story is to be found in these archives. Works fine but is sensitive to proper knob installation and effective shut-off. Easy to end up with a large puddle of alcohol which then ignites...

I have also restored our old Kenyon two burner alcohol stove and it worked fine. I have, by the way, a trash-picked recessed and gimballed Kenyon which I'm about to toss; you're welcome to it. Actually, I have another countertop two burner Kenyon which you're welcome to as well. The problem with Kenyon is that I understand that the parts are now no longer available, however, the part that you most often need is the leather pump seal which is available elsewhere.
hriehl1
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by hriehl1 »

Oh geez... 1 hour after saying I would not go for a pressurized alcohol unit, here comes one at my very favorite price. Is this a test to see how truly cheap I am? If you've seen American Pickers on TV, you know my affliction... not hoarding, but trading.

Quetzalsailor, Thanks very much for your generous offer. Only the "large puddle of alcohol which then ignites" part gives me pause.

I've seen many Kenyon 2-burner pressurized units (and others) go on EBay for $30 to $90 plus shipping. If you truly cannot be bothered selling whatever you have yourself and will just throw them out, I would take whatever you have for reasonable Packing & Shipping (paid via PayPal). But I'd want you to know it is more likely that after fiddling with them (which I love doing) I might resell them, rather than use them. Let me know.

To others: Please do not judge me too harshly after Tim's comments on pressurized alcohol. It is not likely these would end up in my boat. But they could go to our family camp for auxilliary use (keeping corn, clams, lobster warm).
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by Vark »

I bought a new, all stainless steel double burner propane camp stove ( the type that opens up) with an automatic igniter at Walmart in Durham N.C. for $35, it uses 1 pound bottles. Works great and stows easily. I live in Rhode Island but have never seen any at the local Walmarts.
Last edited by Vark on Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rachel
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by Rachel »

hriehl1,

Okay, some semi-rambling thoughts from me then:

1) If your cooking will be done at anchor, and presuming reasonably sheltered anchorages, then you don't need a gimballed stove.

2) For ovens, there are the Coleman camp ovens that fit on top of a stove burner, or the smaller backpacker oven. I just took a look at the one you reference and it looks interesting but, on the other hand, is somewhat limited as to what you can bake by the "odd" shape inside (no pizza, cookies, etc.)

3) But, you can also bake in a pressure cooker right on the stove top. I have not done it (had an oven, lucky me), but I know a number of people who have. Bread, muffins, etc. Plus you can use the pressure cooker for other things (and... I think you could bake similarly in any heavy pan, as you don't use the "pressure" part when baking). A pressure cooker can also make a nice "locked" pan for regular cooking.

4) The Sea Swing type stoves are nice (I have an older Sea Cook), but if you are using the now-more-common propane bottle ones, I will say they take up a fair bit of room, and I don't know that I would want one on a small boat if I was also going to have another "main" stove. The thing is they are pretty long, and they need some swinging room. The newer ones are somewhat limited in pan size. Of course if you are only boiling water that's not a concern.

5) I think, given that you will already have a main stove that is not the Sea Swing, I would consider something like an air pot or high quality Thermos for coffee. Then you could make it in the morning and keep it hot all day for drinking when you felt like it. An idea anyway.

I have really liked propane for the stove/ovens I have used aboard, BUT this was on boats slightly bigger than a Triton sized boat. If cooking is not such a big deal to you, you might not want to go through the relative gymnastics of figuring out where to stow the propane bottle (properly vented locker), solenoid, lines, etc. But when you go to cook you get instant on, great heat, and no smell.

Kerosene works well (according to others; I have not used it), but there is a bit more hassle factor when you fire up the stove (I've used a diesel furnace which is similar with pre-heating and etc.) On the other hand you don't have the more complicated installation.

I think if I were in your situation (and presuming that I didn't react negatively to the smell of burning alcohol that you can sometimes get a whiff of), I would get a two-burner Origo stove and a good Thermos/air pot for coffee. For baking, a pan or maybe try a Coleman or other stove-top oven.

One other place I see people cooking at lot is on stern-rail barbecues. I've never had one so can't comment.

None of this has taken budget into consideration, but for me I would probably decide which system I wanted and then buy it, without going on cost (given that we're not talking about $3000 ovens here anyway).

Rachel
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by Triton106 »

hriehl1,

Here is a link to an Good Old Boat write-up on different types of stoves that I found useful. I went through the same search process you did. My Triton came with an Origo 300 (two burner) non-pressurized alcohol stove. I am in the process of installing a propane stove (Force 10) with gimbal. But my planned use is different than yours. I agree with Rachel's recommendations (she really knows what she is talking about).

If you are interested in pursue the non-pressurized alcohol route PM me maybe we can work out a deal.
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by Hulukupu »

hriehl1,

I have an Origo 2-burner and a single burner propane swing-stove. I use the latter more than 90% of the time (for soups, coffee and the like). The Origo is nice when you have more than a couple on board and it's great for simmering in large pans. My teenage son likes the swing-stove because I have it set up to hang in the cockpit (in addition to a cabin mount), so I can make coffee in the morning without waking him up. If you're on a budget and plan limited cruising, you might find that a swing-stove combined with some sort of "straw-box" will meet your needs.
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by Rachel »

Hulukupu wrote:If you're on a budget and plan limited cruising, you might find that a swing-stove combined with some sort of "straw-box" will meet your needs.
I had never heard the term "straw box," so I did a search. It's basically any type of "retained-heat" cooking, and apparently the name comes from the time when cooks would use a wooden box lined with straw to form the heat retainer. This thread explains it and also gives a few different ideas for boating/hiking use. I have used the Thermos™ trick.... but never knew I was using a "straw box." Thanks for bringing that up, Hulukupu :)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f91 ... 53938.html
hriehl1
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Re: Alcohol Stove Advice ??

Post by hriehl1 »

A public "thank you" to Quetzalsailor for sending me his two old Kenyon stoves, one a gimbaled propane and the other a simple pressurized alcohol countertop unit.

My boat's prior owner had a totally bogus propane setup running a propane hose from the outboard well through bulkheads (no chafe protection, no supports in the run) to a camp stove in the galley. I don't know if he used 1# hardware store propane tanks or something bigger, but there was no selanoid, containment, sniffer... nothing. Because Quetzalsailor's propane unit was a tad too big for my stove area and I don't want to get into the expense and effort of a proper propane installation, the propane unit is now on EBay. I hope to recoup the packing & shipping I sent Quetzalsailor.

The pressurized alcohol unit works fine, but comments here and elsewhere on pressurized alcohol designs cause safety concerns so it will go to my sister's lakefront camp for backup auxilliary use. I will say that after cooking on it the past two days just for testing purposes, it seems the "knock" on alcohol being slow to cook is not altogether warranted. I brought 6 cups (1.5 quarts) of water to full boil in a kettle in 8.5 minutes. If that is longer than propane, it's not all that much longer.

I've read up a great deal in several forums and there seems to be quite an alcohol -vs- propane debate. Cheap guy that I am, I find it funny that propane advocates will endorse spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a properly safe propane system, then cite $18 a gallon denatured alcohol (that'll last most cruisers half a season or more) as a reason to replace alcohol. I also found it instructive how many (on both sides) railed against pressurized alcohol, but very few spoke against the non-pressure Origos. There were very few who once had Origos and found them to be inadequate; those who replaced them generally upgraded to ranges with ovens.

So now I am looking for a non-pressurized alcohol, 2-burner Origo or Contoure Cookmate; either standalone or built-in. Triton106, I PM'd you about yours but received no answer. One should be easy to score, they are on Ebay and Craigslist all the time.

Rachel's comments about a good thermos for all-day coffee was thoughtful, but I confess I am still on the lookout for a propane bottle Sea Swing at the right price. I just like the saltiness of them. They seem to be coveted though, when one appears on EBay it almost always fetches more than $100.
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