Restoring an older boat

Ask a question...get an answer (or two).
Post Reply
Sailordave
Deck Grunge Scrubber
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:33 pm
Location: VA
Contact:

Restoring an older boat

Post by Sailordave »

I have been mulling over buying a boat for just ME. Not sure whether I want something newer, faster and raceable.... or if I'm going to go the Classic Plastic route. I really like the looks of some of the older boats but don't want to get stuck w/ a money pit.
A friend did a fantastic restoration on a Hinckley SW 42 for what I built my house for! No no no no no! Not me.

That said, there are some really nice boats out there (including Hinckleys) that could be nice cruisers if fixed up.

What would YOU say to concentrate on and what do you estimate the cost to be for each line item?
Replace seacocks, fill fastener holes, sand and paint mast, obviously new sails, upgraded winches, etc. What are the HAVE TO items? (in your opinion) new wiring? new tanks?


IE, I know someone who put a Carbon mast on a boat for about 30K. I can price a winch, electronics
User avatar
Rachel
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:59 pm

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Rachel »

I don't want to sound discouraging, but on the other hand, I can't think of how to answer this question. It's so.... big. I also can't tell exactly what you're asking.

Could you possibly narrow it down or re-phrase it?

One other note: In my opinion, most plastic classics really need a complete re-fit, new systems, etc. Even if they were already done, oftentimes I find that the work is such that I would want to do it over. BUT, as you notice, there are plenty of plastic classics out sailing that have not been completely re-fit. Some of them are sinking or being dismasted, but most aren't. So I feel that another part of the equation is what type of person you are. That is, can you sail along contentedly whilst knowing that some systems on your boat may be compromised? (Many people can and most of them don't come to grief, although some do.) Or are you the type who can't really relax knowing the hoses are old, the seacocks aren't proper, the chainplates may have crevice corrosion, etc.

Many of the plastic classics had a few "less than optimum" installations from the get-go, and even the optimum ones may be 40 or more years old. Re-fits are suspect until determined otherwise, in my experience.

Likewise, can you own/sail a boat knowing that the decks have some soft spots that may be getting worse? Can you happily sail along knowing that, hey, you are out there sailing even if things aren't perfect? Or do you want to know things are watertight and dry for sure?

I fall into the "must know it's right" category, so almost every plastic classic is a project for me, on some level (there are a few exceptions of course). But many other people are not afflicted thusly. Lucky them ;)

Not sure if that helps answer your question or not (?)

Rachel
Last edited by Rachel on Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bigd14
Skilled Systems Installer
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:56 pm
Boat Type: Ericson 27
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by bigd14 »

I agree with Rachel that most older boats probably need more work than initially appears. 28 months ago I bought a boat that seemed to be in reeasonable condition and I figured I could get it fixed up in six months... Unfortunately I discovered that i am in the "must know its right" category. In my case with the time ands money I have invested I could probably have bought a really nice boat that only needed a few minor items and I could have been sailing for the past two seasons (I actually have not been keeping track of expenses- I just really don't want to know). But I know every inch of the boat and I know that every aspect is done to my satisfaction. And that is worth a lot to me. Plus I find this kind of work deeply satisfying. So it all depends on what you wish to accomplish and the standards you can live with. But do not underestimate the amount of time or money it will take. Double your worst case. Then add 50%!

Doug
Doug
1972 Ericson 27
User avatar
earlylight
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:15 pm
Boat Name: Early Light
Boat Type: 1982 Sabre 34 MK I
Location: MD
Contact:

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by earlylight »

Sailordave,

I agree with Rachel. I purchased my 1982 Sabre 34 in 2001 and she was in above average condition. I had 4 or 5 issues the surveyor recommended takng care of. However, there were still a lot of upgrades that I have done over the 10 years of ownership.

Here are a few:
1. Adler Barbour refrigeration
2. High output Balmar alternator
3. New external multistage regulator
4. New Echo Charge unit
5. New Link 10 digital battery monitor
6. Replace house bank with 6 volt golf cart batteries
7. New rigid boom vang
8. New ball bearing mainsheet traveler
9. Galvanic Isolator
10. AC Inverter
11. Overhaul Edson steering with new steering cables, new throttle & shift cables, repaint pedestal
12. New ball bearing mainsheet blocks
13. New ball bearing blocks for furling line
14 Electric anchor windlass
15. New dodger
16. New mainsail cover
17. 3 new sails (main, 130% genoa and spin)
18. 6 new stainless steel opening ports
19. Replace hydraulic backstay adjuster
20. Chartplotter
21. New lifelines
22. Rehab vanity in head

Well....You get the idea. If you are interested in costs and man hours for all the work I have done it can be found on my website at: http://earlylight160.110mb.com/

Like Rachel said, it all depends upon your own desires and resources. I could have sailed the boat as she was when purchased, but I wanted more.

Hope this is helpful.
Last edited by earlylight on Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dick Coerse
Early Light
Sabre 34 MK1
Solomons MD

http://earlylight160.net76.net
Triton106
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2003 4:51 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Triton106 »

Dave,

If you intent to buy an older plastic classic there really is no way to estimate the total cost as it depends on the condition of the individual boat. Having said that you may be able to put a bracket around the cost:

Lower end = nothing if the boat is turnkey which rarely if ever happens.
Higher end = a complete rebuild similar to what Tim did with Glissando (I may be wrong but I remember reading somewhere where Tim documented the total *material* cost to be around $45K, but that was in 2000.)

The cost can also vary considerablly depending on if you are resourceful or if you buy everything retail. Ferenc Mate mentioned that one of his friends built a boat, including hull, for only under $10K in 1975. Assuming a 3% average inflation rate that translates to approximately $30K in today's dollars (or $40K if you assume a 4% average inflation rate).

I bought a 1960 Pearson Triton in 2000 and have been gradually updating it. I have lost track of the total cost after the first 10K (I never intended to track it - maybe like Doug I just don't want to know). I would just hazard to guess it is around $20K now (including boatyard costs). But I still have the original Atomic 4 that came with the boat. A new diesel will set me back another $10K (including the shaft, proper, etc...)

Hope this helps.
Ray D. Chang
Triton 106 in Berkeley, CA
User avatar
Tim
Shipwright Extraordinaire
Posts: 5708
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
Boat Name: Glissando
Boat Type: Pearson Triton
Location: Whitefield, ME
Contact:

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Tim »

I think your question is way too wide open to even begin to answer intelligently. Actually, the only person who can answer the question intelligently is you, but you need to ask yourself these (and more) questions first:

1. What do you like?

2. What do you hate?

3. What's important to you in a boat and her condition?

4. How skilled are you?

5. How much time to you have to work on a boat? (No, not the dream, but the real figure--then divide the real figure by about four)?

6. How long can you wait for the completion of the project?

7. Are you willing to spend what it takes (both time and money) to complete the job, or are you going to worry and whine about every cost along the way? Stuff costs money. A lot.

8. Do you like a good job, or is Bondo, black tape, wire nuts, cheapness over rightness, and daily prayers more like it?

9. Where are you going to work on the boat? How much does it cost? Is it indoors or outdoors? Can you afford it for many times longer than you originally expect (see # 5)

10. Do you have tools? Are you willing to buy others just to get through the job?

11. Do you live somewhere where the weather will greatly impede your work? (See also #9)

12. Do you want to work on a boat, or sail it?

13. Do you have the personal experience to know what changes to a boat's interior, structure, or other aspects are important to you, and how to implement them? What works for one person may not be ideal for the next, so others' choices are pretty meaningless. What have your experiences taught you, and do these experiences point you down the custom project path?

14. How do you use a boat? Is a boat a highly personal thing to you, something in which you need to take a lot of pride, or just a platform to be on the water?

15. How much are you willing to sacrifice along the way in order to see the project through? By sacrifice, I mean giving up unnecessary expenses in favor of spending necessarily on the boat; choosing to work on the boat instead of some other pursuit; ; working on the boat even when you don't feel like it because the end result is what's important in the end; juggling work, family, and friends to still fit in the boat time; and so forth.

16. Are you results-driven?

These are tough questions, and the answers matter only to you; I'm not asking you to answer them publicly (please don't)--just to ask them to yourself. If you look at questions like these honestly, I think it will help you focus your needs and desires and help you decide how to proceed.

There sure are a lot of boats out there that would be nice if only they had the benefit of 2000 hours and $50,000. No doubt about it.

Each individual boat has its own lists of benefits, requirements, repair needs, and potential upgrades. There's no single right direction or list of improvements/repairs that covers all potential boats, or even most. Individual boats--and people--are far too different to even begin to generalize the process.
---------------------------------------------------
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
User avatar
Homer
Deck Grunge Scrubber
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:05 pm
Boat Name: Yankee
Boat Type: Hinckley 38
Location: Galveston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Homer »

I am well into the restoration of a Hinckley and Tim's "What the boat wants, the boat gets" cuts to the chase. I had a thorough survey from one of the best in the business, and he turned up only a couple of minor details. It is clear that he had no idea about what the boat wanted.

If you fall into Rachel's "must know its right" category, some serious reflection is in order. Your mention of the words "money pit" might suggest that restoring a classic is perhaps not your best choice for spare time activity.
Sailordave
Deck Grunge Scrubber
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:33 pm
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Sailordave »

Well I (like most sailors!) tend to be, um, a bit anal. So I want every thing to be just right. That said I can live w/ things not perfect if it's in sailing condition. I don't want a boat that needs major structural work (full deck job, or bulkheads replaced) and I don't want to have to completely gut the sucker and build up. I know there may be a few soft spots (stanchion bases) that need work as is the case on most boats. I expect the chainplates would need to be replaced or at least rebedded.
And there is a difference between putting an old boat into sailing condition and adding extras just b/c I want them. Like refrig or LED cabin lighting or some special sail or new hatches if the old ones are serviceable. New batteries don't count; you have to get them every so often anyway. And I would distinguish between something inherent to the boat's operating ability v. say, a new sail cover or a dodger or bimini. (don't really like biminis anyway 'cept on a scorcher of a hot summer day)

I guess what I'm looking for is more of what are going to be absolute, must look at, probably have to do chores. What have YOU all found that almost always needs to be addressed. And... what did it cost for your boat?

I've been pondering anything from a Hinckley B40 to an old Swan to an old Allied and a Block Island 40. I could REALLY like any of these designs even though they might be a little tight on room. They speak to me. I'm not going to buy a generic hunk of plastic that looks like a run of the mill blobboat. I also am not going to get into somthing that is going to suck the life (and $$) out of me!
Sailordave
Deck Grunge Scrubber
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:33 pm
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Sailordave »

DIck, Nice boat! I want to spend some time looking at your website...

BTW, I do the Race to Solomons and GOV Cup on the boat I crew for; fun time!
Also sail my club boat out of Herrington South so we're practically neighbors.
David
Paulus
Skilled Systems Installer
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:05 pm
Boat Name: Guillemot
Boat Type: Mariner Ketch

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Paulus »

I got a similar bug as you seem to describe and started shopping for a boat that would pull my heartstrings... upon having decided the make, vintage and stile, I started learning as much about the boat as I could - especially the setbacks and structural "must fixes" that came with it and then started looking for one that had all or most of them completed.

I stumbled over one that had all the usually failing components replaced by someone who loved her (including a new Perkins plus aluminum 40 gallon tank) but otherwise she was in original (old ashioned) condition. PO also added radar and propane heating... the boat was clearly maintained and loved...

I feel lucky, no, priveledged, to find myself her new skipper and there is no job I would not do - and not do right, to keep her around for at least another 40 years....

You will too be able to find the boat that speaks to you and then you will also easily know what needs done and commit to it. With my boat it is the predictable stuff - engine maintenance (assume nothing was done to valve timing, filters,heat exchanger, etc.), establishing a solid base to start with for bottom paint, general plumbing (head, tanking, cockpit drains), electrical (aging wiring, older switches, no shorepower, etc.) and clean, clean and clean...

It is a labor of love.
JohnD
Deck Grunge Scrubber
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:00 pm
Boat Name: undecided
Boat Type: Pearson Triton EC #234
Location: Chesapeake Bay, MD
Contact:

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by JohnD »

Sailordave wrote: Also sail my club boat out of Herrington South so we're practically neighbors.
David
Shipwright Harbor here. Who knew there were so many people right here?
Sailordave
Deck Grunge Scrubber
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:33 pm
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Sailordave »

Homer wrote:I am well into the restoration of a Hinckley and Tim's "What the boat wants, the boat gets" cuts to the chase. I had a thorough survey from one of the best in the business, and he turned up only a couple of minor details. It is clear that he had no idea about what the boat wanted.

I remember exchanging some PM's w/ you about the H38 a while back. There were 2 on Yachtworld for sale but haven't seen any for a while. Interestingly when I was in SW Harbor ME last summer i was talking w/ someone who was working on a B40 there and said something about the 38 and they replied something on the order of that was kind of an aberration, that it wasn't a real Hinckley. Meant to ask what they meant but they were working.
I always liked them.
Looks like a nice boat though!
One Way David
Skilled Systems Installer
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:46 pm
Boat Type: Pearson Ensign
Location: Kansas

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by One Way David »

Sailordave, this thread has been idle for a couple of days and I might be talking to those who have moved on and my boat is not in the class of boats you've mentioned but, I will try to answer your question. BTW, I am contemplating the boats you mentioned for my future needs.

I'm a novice sailor and boat owner. Bought an Ensign (22.5') 3 years ago that was and touted as being sail-able but in need of TLC of any 40 y/o boat. I've sail it on Kansas lakes for 3 years and here is where I am.
1. Bottom job. Scraped and filled all through hulls as they weren't needed. Applied anti-fouling.
2. Replaced all the rotten (all) running rigging.
3. Rebuilt the storage areas behind the seat backs in the cockpit due to rot.

This ran me about $2500, not accounting for my very expensive labour. I think I charged myself about $500/hr, taking my lead from local attorneys. Now what is on my plate for the immediate future.

1. Replace the standing rigging which I think is original to the boat. Fudge here 'cause I'm going to experiment with synthetic lines instead of SS wire.
2. Re-bed the deck hardware, there is no bedding left from the previous job, whenever that was done.
3. Sand, fair, prime and paint the deck.
4. Rebuild the floor, sole, seat supports and bulkhead. Rot. I think the seats are the only thing salvageable.
5. Design and install some type of swim ladder that can be easily removed to sail.
5. Replace the deck, mast, and boom hardware. It's all original and very weather worn.

I'm looking at $4500 only because I have traded for the wood stock for any construction needed. I think it will be time for the bottom job about then, too.

Now to extrapolate to a 40' boat. Some here have commented that as the boat lengthens, the costs go up. I would say the costs go up exponentially (like y=x squared). The break seems to be about 34' and up, in my experience. Below that it seems to be a more linear relationship. In addition, I do not sail off shore, overnight or is heavy weather.

Now, I can't pass up Tim's post above. That's about the most down to earth synopsis of starting on the sailboat slippery slope I've ever read. Thanks, I made it a sticky to my desktop to re-read often.

Dave.
Never finish all your projects or you'll be bored.
captphil416
Rough Carpentry Apprentice
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:43 pm
Boat Name: Deep Blue
Boat Type: Pearson Triton

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by captphil416 »

Sailor Dave; I have been involved in putting 4 old boats back into sailing condition. The lesson I learned is that there are new boats and derelect boats. Unless you love the work, the best buy is one that has just been redone and must be sold for some reason. Never buy a boat with soft decks or severe blister problems. Any rotted bulkheads or interior woodwork are also deal killers. Beyond that plan on redoing everything, and then feel fortunate when you find those things that work just fine. The reward is that you will know and be able to repair anything on your boat. Go for it Phil
User avatar
Homer
Deck Grunge Scrubber
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:05 pm
Boat Name: Yankee
Boat Type: Hinckley 38
Location: Galveston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Homer »

Hi David,

Sorry for the delay. I remain unclear about some of the history of the H38. The boat is “Design No. 1965” by “Sparkman & Stephens, Inc.” for “H.R. Hinckley & Co.” (I have a set of plans). The boat was apparently built on commission from the New York Yacht Club with a brief to produce a boat that performed rather better than the beautiful, but stately, B40. It certainly does that! I believe that fewer than two-dozen were built (this might be the aberration part?). Hughes Boat Works in Ontario built the bare hull (not the deck or anything else as far as I know) for Hinckley. Or perhaps this is the aberration part? I wish I knew more.

Thanks for your advice a while back.
Vark
Deck Grunge Scrubber
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:13 pm
Boat Name: Aria
Boat Type: 1960 Rhodes Swiftsure 33
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Restoring an older boat

Post by Vark »

My 2 cents..............
So you want to restore an old B.O.A.T. ? Break-Out-Another-Thousand !

If you want to restore a 38' classic plastic sailboat figure out how long it will take you and how much you will spend. Think about this long and hard and when you finally come up with a figure that you feel is in the ball park, multiply it by 10 and that is what the true final figure will be.

It's a serious commitment of time, money, thought, blood, sweat and tears.
"A thing of beauty is a joy forever"
Post Reply