Storm closures

[Quetzalsailor]

Following along on Tom Young's comments about the threaded inserts for storm closures on ports: He reported that his inserts were only about 1/2" deep (into the approx 1" thick wood house sides).

If you think that the closures are supposed to be stronger than the glass and that they are only loaded from the outside by falling water (or loose bits of boat), or you're closing the opening of a broken port, then it does not seem to me to matter very much how they're held on. The threaded inserts would be fine, I think, as would cleats and tying. Even strongbacks and bolts through the missing port would do, after the loss.

If you think that you're protecting the glass when the boat is dropped onto its cabin top, I would be wishing that the closures were adding something to the structural strength of the house. Several stories in Cole's Heavy Weather Sailing are descriptive of older wood yachts suffering remarkable damage from such ill fortune. A wood house really is a weak place in an otherwise substantial structure; the plastic houses on the rest of our boats are probably only marginally better. I think that substantially bolted closures would add materially to the strength of the whole, particularly when that whole is compromised by large ports. Serious bolted connections can be arranged by serious threaded inserts, internally threaded pipe welded to nicely finished and shaped plates and installed from the inside of a wood house would do. On a 'glass boat the plates could be concealed behind the liners. (Our LeComte has several such inserts on deck for rigging staysails and whatnot.)

In an adventure, you'll be wanting to find the closures, the bolts and the tools... This is why serious offshore boats have small ports.

[Triton106]

Quetzalsailor, I think that is a great idea. I will make a mental note of it when I get to redoing my large fixed ports on the Triton. Jim Baldwin had another idea which is also very practical. He replaced his fixed ports with 1/2" Plexiglass (or could be Lexan) and bolted them down just like the West Coast Tritons.

[Hirilondë]

The term plexiglass is virtually meaningless. It is used to refer to clear plastic sheeting and can mean any of several plastics used to make "window" material. The characteristics of the different plastics are so different that they are not interchangeable in use. The word Lexan is a trade name. Lexan refers to a polycarbonate developed originally be GE. The 2 major plastics used as "window" material on boats are polycarbonate and acrylic. Until fairly recently polycarbonate was the only real choice where strength was important. I still is the best choice for large hatches and ports due to its impact resistance. Acrylic as a rule is more scratch resistant and has much less tendency to yellow over time. Acrylics have been improved lately in strength characteristic, and hence are better now than in the past for ports and hatches.

In technical discussions, like we often have here, it would be much more clear if people used the more accurate terms and specify exactly what they mean. The use of plexiglass is a total distraction to communication as it can mean almost anything, and therefore means little of anything. Most people interpret Lexan to mean polycarbonate, but it would be more clear to use the word polycarbonate as there are several brands of this material.

[Tom Young]

This is a great topic Doug. I think you can really get lost trying to make a good coastal sailing boat into a bomb proof ocean crosser. Internet sailing especially has turned this into an artform off survival at sea. Instead of sailing in general, topics seem more centered around the Perfect Storm survival at sea.

So I take the easy way out, the coastal sailer vs ocean crosser. Of course defining those parameters, if someone wants to, are up to the individual. Mine are basically what we do, coastal Maine mostly, New England occasionally. In the near future we may take the boat south down the coast. We've done that a couple of times with an occasional overnight, maybe two but mostly day sailing from port to port.

I feel we're safely equipped for this version of coastal sailing mostly because, unless we make an enormous mistake, we'll travel in weather we can deal with. That is the key for me to enjoy these less demanding coastal sailing requirements.

This gives me a lot of relief; no life raft, no modifications to the boat as it is designed and built, no extra communication gear, no epirb, nothing outside of standard CG safety equipment and on and on. It even means towing a hard pram which we've done up and down the east coast to the Bahamas and back a couple times now. Some scoff at that but a safe dinghy for a family is too big to fit on the boat. A smaller one that would fit on deck, would be the biggest hazard we would face as a family in it use as a tender.

And then all the features of nice old boats like yours or mine used within the confines of what I restrict to coastal sailing, become assets. For one, the enormous cockpit of our boat is one of it's biggest assets as a coastal sailer. An entire family can lounge underway or at anchor, comfortably. And then those wonderful big ports many older boats like ours have make life below so comfortable. The sun rises and sets below on Christmas. Standing in the cabin there's a nearly 360 degree view of the moving sea or some of the most beautiful anchorages on the east coast.

In a nutshell, for my coastal sailing, I like a light, spare boat. Nimble, spartan in long distance amenities while everything I need and expect in a sailboat, not a home, is there. 100% capable of what I ask it to do.

On the other hand, were I to look to crossing oceans in my future, I imagine an entirely different boat.
Sure, I could make the corrections and additions to mine, but it would then become substandard for the task which I so dearly enjoy.

I could go on and on. But of course all these wonderful coastal sailing assets become liabilities in an ocean crossing boat in my mind. And of course, mine is a conservative view in that my boat has raced to Bermuda at least once and boats like ours have of course crossed many oceans and will cross many more.

[Quetzalsailor]

Dave is mostly bang on. Plexiglass is Rohm and Haas' trade name for acrylic plastic, but has slipped into sloppy, general use as has kleenex or scotch tape. Lucite was DuPont's name for acrylic plastic. I just checked and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly%28met ... crylate%29 (whew!)

This stuff is pretty typical, if not almost universal for use in boats today, as opposed to Alden and LeComte, and probably Hinckley and a few others' use of tempered glass. Cheaper boats would always have been acrylic.

Acrylic glazing will always be tempting since it's both cheaper and tougher. It's more susceptible to scratching and both yellowing and crazing with age. It eventually, but not obviously, becomes quite weakened; one happy day, the component will simply fall apart.

DuPont made SAR Lucite which had a scratch resistant coating; no doubt still available from someone; DuPont sold their Lucite business to Rohm and Haas; in turn, Rohm and Haas was sold out to Dow Chemical.

Polycarbonate sheet is more expensive than acrylic. GE's polycarbonate is Lexan. This will tell you more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate. It's much tougher than acrylic and is damaged by UV as well. Much tougher is why it's used for lenses in vandal-resistant light fixtures.

So, for boat glazing, shop for acrylic or polycarbonate sheet actually sold for glazing, with UV coatings, and scratch resistant coatings.

[Hirilondë]

Good stuff Quetzalsailor. I should have linked some references as well.

as opposed to Alden and LeComte, and probably Hinckley and a few others' use of tempered glass.

I can only speak for Hinckley, and they use safety glass, it is not tempered. Safety glass is 2 or more layers that are bonded together with a thin plastic film. This is why it does not shatter when broken under all but the most extreme forces, and the laminating adds significant strength as well. Tempering is a heating process just like for metals and is used for auto glass as well as other applications to make sure that there are no sharp pieces when the glass is shattered. Tempering is done after the glass is cut, molded or what ever to the final shape. It can be performed on safety glass which now has the benefit of both processes. Tempered safety glass is required by building code for use in doors and any window coming within a certain distance of the floor (18 inches if I recall).

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-drivi ... ion508.htm

I agree with most of what you have posted Tom, and have taken a very similar approach in the rehab and fitting of my boat.

Some scoff at that but a safe dinghy for a family is too big to fit on the boat. A smaller one that would fit on deck, would be the biggest hazard we would face as a family in it use as a tender.

This however need not be true. I built a nesting dinghy for the very reason of having both properties as well as a dinghy that sails. I have yet to actually bother to take my dinghy apart and put it on deck while cruising, as I have had no need to. But I have done so for practice and know that I can should the need arise.

[Rachel]

I think of Plexiglas/Perspex as acrylic, and Lexan as polycarbonate, although I can see where it might be better to use the generic names rather than the "Kleenexey" brand names, since you never know if people are just using Plexiglass generically (of course, then they may do the smae with acrylic, but at least there may be a better chance for clarity).

I guess the same thing happened with Fiberglas, but then there is not quite the same confusion over two similar-yet-different types.

Acrylic glazing will always be tempting since it's both cheaper and tougher. It's more susceptible to scratching and both yellowing and crazing with age.

I know acrylic is cheaper (at least the regular stuff - not sure about the fancier tempered, etc. types), but I always thought it was less susceptible to both scratching and yellowing, as compared to polycarbonate (?).

Tom,
Hear, hear! I often think about the exact phenomenon you mention: The compunction to turn every boat into a "bluewater" boat, just in case. And then to lose, or fail to enjoy, its "coastal" attributes. I can see where it comes from - I mean, the sea can be unpredictable and dangerous, etc. But, like you say, with proper choice of location and good planning, the odds of needing to survive, say, a rollover, are probably slim.

Edit: Came back to insert "ramble alert"...

Your dinghy example (how your family is more likely to come to grief actually using a small one than you are towing a larger one) could be applied to a number of things. Maybe it's more likely that someone will trip over that super-high, bluewater bridgedeck and have an accident while going below for a cup of coffee than it is for a wave to surge below over a "coastal" height one? How about the hernia from raising an all chain rode, instead of 50' of chain and then rope? (Or working longer hours to pay for an electric windlass system and then not going sailing at all?)

Of course my examples are a little bit silly, and also, each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with and will enjoy. Maybe it hits home with me a little bit because, although I had been (non-sail) boating all my life, my first real sailing was offshore, and so I got used to that type of boat, and I have to constantly level with myself now when thinking about a coastal boat, so as not to want to turn something like your boat into a W-32 (which, you are correct, you cannot see out of at anchor - tiny portholes and high bulwarks. I often mock threatened to paint a lovely harbor scene on the inside of the bulwarks).

I still can't quite shake the all-chain-rode habit, but I'm working on it ;)

I suppose the other component to that is that some people who are outfitting a coastal boat plan to take it bluewater sailing in the future, or think they might like to go offshore someday, and so then there is the temptation to outfit the boat that way now (after which you may have to day or weekend sail with it that way for the next 20 years).

It's funny how boats are so different than cars that way. I find myself thinking about that often. I mean, hardly anyone will outfit their Toyota Camry with huge tires, a snorkel, jerry cans, and etc. just because they love the mountains and might like to drive off the road someday. Or buy a limo for everyday use just in case 10 people might like to ride with them once per year. Likewise, not many people will buy a car, stow it in a parking lot, and then pay for that parking spot, maintenance, and upgrades for years and years meanwhile driving the car once or twice - or maybe even not at all.

But those things all seem to be nearly the norm for boats. I guess boats just have that dream/soul fulfilling quality that makes them different from cars. Which is a good thing. I'm glad they're not the same. But, as you expressed so well, it can be helpful to take a realistic look at how you plan to use them, and that just may make them more enjoyable and more affordable.

Rachel

[Tom Young]

Good info Dave. I noticed the link on glass you posted has tempered glass 5 to 10 times stronger than the equivalent plate. It would be nice to know what that really means in actual use of a wave hitting a large port the size of my boats. I believe the shutters built for my boat are 1/4" acrylic panels. As they give quite a bit, I would wonder if they flexed hard against the tempered glass, how much actual benefit they would add.

If I did add shutters again, I'd likely go with poly carbonate as I'm used to working with it. But I'd cover both large ports per side with a single piece eliminating 2 edges to catch water. I'd consider going to 3/8" as well although that's quite a bit more $.

On the dinghy, a nester is an ideal solution for some. I need a real load hauling dinghy. For the last 16 years, the full sized Joel White Nutshell pram at 9'6" x 4'4" has always been up to the task of getting four people and supplies safely back and forth to the boat. We're pushing it these days as our kids are full sized now. But everyone loves to row and it's rigged to sail too. For us, that dinghy is a big part of what we enjoy sailing. I think you can build one into a nester, but it would be a pretty big package to handle.

On the other hand, a Dyer 8' dinghy fits on chocks under my boom and forward of the companionway. They were an option with the boat in the 60's I believe. They're fine dinghys if you don't overload them(aren't they all?). Two springs ago we lost a man in Rockport Harbor as an 8' Dyer capsized with two men onboard. It was blowing hard in their favor. No doubt as they got out into the outer harbor, following waves had grown and overwhelmed the dinghy. One man was saved.

[Hirilondë]

On the dinghy, a nester is an ideal solution for some. I need a real load hauling dinghy. For the last 16 years, the full sized Joel White Nutshell pram at 9'6" x 4'4" has always been up to the task of getting four people and supplies safely back and forth to the boat.

Well, my Spindrift is 9'0" x 4'2" and I can row it with 4 adults and some gear. I don't think I would want to in rough weather, but it does work. Plans for the Spindrift nesting version are offered in a 9, 10 and 11 foot lengths. So don't discount a nesting dinghy as a real load hauler. Based on my last several years coastal cruising I don't think I would even suggest you consider replacing your pram however. I doubt the long shot that some day you might wish to put it on deck worth the effort to build one or replace a dinghy you are obviously quite satisfied with. I built mine in response to my need at the time to set myself up for dealing with situations while sailing that I will most likely never encounter. This tendency of mine at the time was much like you describe in your first post.

To get back to the safe port topic my Renegade's dead lights are made of 1/2" polycarbonate. While this may be over kill it does provide for some additional feelings of well being. Factor in also that at the time I was refitting her, my boss offered me any and all partial sheets, boards, cans etc., of materials on hand at the boatyard for no charge. That 1/3 of a sheet of 1/2" smoked polycarbonate in the plywood locker was way too hard to resist.

[Zach]

As an ex-plastics industry dude...

Whichever you choose, you can get a much better deal on pricing if you track down a plastics distributor and walk in or call and look for offcuts.
Have your dimensions ready, and know what thickness and product you want. 1/4 = .250 3/8 = .375 1/2 = .500
If you ask for the cheapest, you will get something without a UV package.
When they give you a quote, politely ask... "Is that your best price?" As a retail buyer everything is the highest rung on the ladder, most of the time all you have to do is ask and they'll put you to commercial pricing. This goes for most places that are not chain stores...

If you go acrylic, try to get your paws on cast acrylic sheet. Thicker than a 1/2 inch pretty much all of it is cast, but the thin stuff is extruded, which means the sheet has a grain. If you have a polarizing lens for your camera and hold the piece up to sunlight and look through both, you can see the flow lines, and thus lines of stress in the part. Casting acrylic means that the raw pellets lose their memory and crosslink evenly across the panel, extruded parts do to some extent, but the chains are not as long meaning the part is not as strong.

Pylasteki has a stack of half inch thick GE MR10 offcuts waiting to be turned into portlights. I like the idea of my portlights being thick enough that they are the storm shutters... and just carry a spare portlight or two. I'm pretty sure though, the cabin top will be missing before a half inch thick piece of polycarbonate gets stoved in.
A sheet of the stuff costs around 1,100 retail.
I bought six pieces 24 x whatever for just under 300 bucks total...
Of course it took 3 weeks, as some came from San Francisco. A piece from Chicago, and one from New Jersey somewhere.

MR10 is polycarbonate sheet that is used as structural glazing on skyscrapers. It has a 10 year UV package, and a scratch protective film... Pretty much the best you can get.

If money was no object, and I wasn't planning to go offshore I'd go as thick of tempered as I could afford... Not going to scratch it, and its never going to turn yellow.
If money is an object, and she's an inshore day sailer I'd go Acrylic.

When you go to cut this stuff, use the coarsest meanest jigsaw blade you can find for the rough cut. The more material moved with each pass the less heat is generated in the part. This stuff is sticky, and if you try to use a fine blade and get a smooth cut, it'll stick to the blade and try to glue its self back together if you are using a real junky jigsaw. Put mylar packing tape on the bottom to keep the saw from scratching off the protective film.
Make a template of what you want cut and use a router bit with a following bushing or guide bearing. 2 carbide cutters will do it...
Push it around the template with as much speed as you can safely control the router. Your goal is to have a high feed rate, meaning the plastic is sheared and the chips take the heat rather than the part.
You can come back and clean up the edge with some fine sand paper 320-600 to knock off whatever burrs are there.

When you go to drill the holes, use the template and a drill press if you have one. Pretty much any bit will do the job, just make sure it is sharp and new. The best bits for the money are hole saw bits... High speed steel, but the best quality of anything you'll find standing at a hardware store. If you have a fastenall near by, they carry some nicer stuff. Clamp a backer of polycarbonate to the underside of the part. If you don't when the drill bit exits the back there is a tendency for it to blow out a chunk. Keep the bit cool to the touch, if the chips start balling up stop and let it cool down, or dunk it in some water.

Do not, under any circumstance counter sink the fasteners into the face of the plastic. If you use countersunk screws, the expansion and contraction of the plastic from heat and sunlight... will cause it to crack around the holes as it ages. The holes for fasteners need to be oversized slightly, accounting for the plastic increasing in size, easiest way to do that is to use the plastic part as the drill guide for what you will be attaching it to... or step up a 25 thousands or so in size. Smooth shanked fasteners are best, as threads act as a notch point. (This does not apply to nylon, polyetheylene and stuff with a low durometer. Polycarbonate and stuff exposed to UV light lasts a lot longer if you account for it.

Also, if you put a sacrificial layer of 1/4 or 1/8th inch acrylic in front of the thicker stuff, it will serve as an expendable UV shield and keep what is behind it in much better shape. Keeping it sealed and dirt out from behind it is another matter... but if you are doing it on the cheap and want this install to be the last, it would not be a bad way to go. All the scratches and uv damage are taken by the top layer.

As far as sealants go... the warranty on high end materials against leakage is null if you stray from their proprietary primers and sealants. On polycarbonate some sealants need to have the outside of the sheet, and edges painted. Polycarbonate doesn't stop UV transmission without UV additives... Acrylic does. I wouldn't take the time to paint over the sealant on the face of a piece of acrylic. Glass, traps most UV, but not all... depending on the sealant, they want that painted too if it's to be flush mounted. My personal preference is for black butyl rubber for bedding in automotive windows... It is a sealant, not an adhesive, and so long as there is an even coat under the glass and a blob rolled up on each screw its not going anywhere. No sticky stuff to clean up... it does take a lot of tightening to pull down evenly though.

Cheers,

Zach

[Quetzalsailor]

I would add only two smidges to Zach's excellent information.

When it was possible, about 30 years ago, to buy DuPont Lucite SAR (acrylic sheet with a scratch resistant coating) at their 'scratch and dent' kind of outlet in Newport DE, my dad and I bought oodles of slightly damaged sheet and used it for storm windows in our houses. I made a jig (out of Lucite, of course) which I would clamp over the stock and whose edge would index to the cutline and whose second layer served to guide an ordinary hand held radial saw. This jig thus also served to protect the stock. A chemical lab wash bottle full of soapy water was squirted liberally along the cut line and a carbide blade in the saw made short, neat and fast work of the cut. One did have to remember to support the scrap or it would break the corner off of the part.

Drilling was more successful when using the special drill bits made for Lucite. Not so special that a good hand with a fine wheel in a grinder could not make ordinary drill bits into Lucite bits. Basically, the cutting edge was parallel to the axis of the bit and not at an attack angle. Ordinary bits want to advance through the Lucite; Lucite bits will merely take nice clean shavings out of the hole. Lubricate the drilling point with the soapy water and do not lean into the drill.

I still have a couple 1/2" - 3' x 4' sheets of dark grey Lucite SAR which still have their protective paper (the glue no doubt long since turned to unremovable). For then pennies a pound, how could I resist? Some of this will end up in Quetzal's hatches.

[Zach]

I'll have to give that a try grinding the bits.

One more to add, clamping a factory edged piece down on top of the sheet gives a soft straight edge that won't mar the finish, to ride a router or jigsaw across.

On the real thin stuff, you can use a 40 tooth or thereabouts blade installed backwards on a skill saw for a perfectly smooth stuff. (1/8th inch thick or less) The negative rake of the cutting tooth notches the plastic out of the way. You'll get sprayed with square shaped chips. The plastic laminate cutting blades for the table saw with 160 teeth work, but you have to open up the back end of your fence a bit, and a riving knife is a nice thing to have. Again, move quickly so as to not build up heat. Adjust the saw blade height higher than you normally would so the chip is sheared straight down through the bottom of the piece, rather than getting shoved down and back... where it'll melt up and cause a slight burr. (More for thicker material...)

I suggest getting it close to size, less than half the diameter of your router bit so there is less material to clear when you do your final finishing pass... if done right, you have no cleanup needed.

If you decide to flame polish the edge of a piece of acrylic, in practice I don't as it adds stresses to the outer edge that will eventually craze the part... but we are talking years down the road. Sand off the burrs first (Deburring tool or razor blade isn't necessary and will leave a jagged edge unless you've used one a few miles...) with a flat piece of plywood and a sticky backed piece of 320-600 grit on it held flat to your work bench... A few passes till you only have a haze of vertical lines around the part will do it... then pull the piece off the work bench and pass a propane torch near by it. Take the protective film off first.

The color on top will change as a light haze hits the piece, just past here the edge will look wet... now keep moving. The flame doesn't have to be in direct contact to the part, to much heat to fast will scorch the plastic. Work around the piece as the edge goes wet, and move fairly quickly. If you stay in one spot to long it'll discolor the top edge, and make the edge look like it isn't square anymore with a slight hollow to it.

Oh... while you are at it, make a few bases for your routers out of some clear stuff... Grin. I tape them down, slip a 1/4 inch drill bit through the existing holes and turn them by hand to spot the hole on the new piece... I wonder if one can buy a hole saw of the proper diameter for a porter cable base...

Zach

[Tom Young]

How about the hernia from raising an all chain rode, instead of 50' of chain and then rope? (Or working longer hours to pay for an electric windlass system and then not going sailing at all?)
Rachel

That's exactly the type of liberation my coastal thinking gives me. If I was headed off for a year, I'd consider all chain rode. Of course I'd add at least one more anchor and rode to the primary, 50' chain and nylon, and stowed back up anchor and rode I carry now that are perfectly adequate for what we do. We'll see mostly known anchorages and or the option to study and choose good ones and avoid a lot of nights in open roadsteads we'd likely encounter cruising(we know what that's like).

Our "coastal" anchor requirements weigh a lot less and take up less space. This thinking throughout our boat keeps it lighter making it a better sailer (much better in light air) and gives you a boat with half full lockers. An empty drawer is not a bad thing to have when you come on board for a week or weekend.

[Shoalcove]

All this bluewater/coastal cruise balance can be difficult at times. I try for good balance but still find myself going overboard for my actual needs at times. Vis a vis the dinghy question, that is an area that still causes dissatisfation. I had (still do, infact) a lovely 7.5' Nutshell I built when there were only the two of us that was perfect until our kids arrived and got bigger. I then built a 11N Spindrift that is a great rower and sailer but is a pain to take apart. Stowing it isn't really feasable. It does tow well but I worry....
I replaced my ports with 3/8 acrylic. That was heavier than what was there and the boat made it to Europe and back with those and a PO. My cabin sides curve and that made acrylic an easier choice. My understanding is that polycarbonates don't readily take a bend.

[Hirilondë]

I then built a 11N Spindrift that is a great rower and sailer but is a pain to take apart. Stowing it isn't really feasable. It does tow well but I worry....

One of the other nesting builders designed some special hardware that makes putting the two halves together and taking them apart a breeze. i used his home made hardware design on mine as well. It takes me less than a minute to put the halves together or take them apart in the water.

http://www.messing-about.com/forums/ind ... pic=5186.0

[Challenger949L]

I believe someone took an Alden Challenger like Tom's across the Atlantic not too long ago. I think the boat was named Fleana. I recall they did some refitting but I do not recall what they did.
Jimmy Small
Sabre 28 Espadon
Alden Challenger Kittiwake

[Tim]

I believe someone took an Alden Challenger like Tom's across the Atlantic not to long ago. I think the boat was named Fleana. I recall they did some refitting but I do not recall what they did.

http://www.fleana.com/

She's a beautiful boat. I'm honored to share Buck's Harbor with her.

[Quetzalsailor]

There was traffic about Fleana on the Alden Challenger site a few years ago. They set off on the crossing, hit heavy weather and broke parts of the boat. They returned to port, had the hull repaired and set off again, this time successfully. Our LeComte NE 38 has damaged wood framing under the forepeak bedding. Several NE 38s have crossed oceans; one is (stuck?) in the middle of the Pacific. Other pictures on the LeComte website will show damaged casework in a LeComte Fastnet (or a similar larger model), suffered on the way to Bermuda.

All this chat about making some parts of our various old boats more bulletproof needs to be considered in the contexts of 'old - old plastic, old technology, high milage, etc.', 'coastal cruiser', 'light duty', 'cost effective'. And, one should not be over enthusiastic about some particular perceived need; it's the whole system, particularly including the wisdom and fitness of the crew, that has to be up to the job.

No one on this forum, that I'm sure about, anyway, has a serious ocean cruiser. I think that there are seriously experienced and skillful sailors, though. (Not me, for sure)

[Tom Young]

Yes, Fleana had some bad oilcanning of the bow sections. Upon returning, Dan found through Alden, a repair was designed long ago for that very problem. A long longtitudinal plywood reinforcement glassed in below the vee berths. Many, like my boat had that done long ago. Sort of a recall I suppose. This is one of the great things about an owners group for an old boat. That fact long ago forgotten, is now current for people owning the boats.

I met Dan in Rockport on Fleana and I recall he also mentioned getting hit by a wave where he was glad he had his storm shutters on.

[Shoalcove]

"One of the other nesting builders designed some special hardware that makes putting the two halves together and taking them apart a breeze. i used his home made hardware design on mine as well. It takes me less than a minute to put the halves together or take them apart in the water.

http://www.messing-about.com/forums/ind ... pic=5186.0"

Thanks Dave, I'll look into that. The standard bolt method is plenty secure but not convenient.
Best regards,
David

[Tom Young]

I'm not going to need them as I have removed the inserts for fastening them. And they're pretty scratched from years of sliding around under the settees. So from the cockpit, I gently I let the stack go flat to land on the ground below. 1/4" thick, I'm guessing arcylic.

Well, 8' drop to the soft ground, and they blow into smitherines! I just looked, aghast. Not even a big wave would break them. OK, only two broke, but they would have been worthless. Certainly not Lexan (sorry, poly carbonate?) which seems nearly unbreakable, must have been acrylic. Does this stuff lose it's strength?

Just for fun, I put the unbroken one on a log and snapped that as well. Good thing I never used them. My storm shutters needed glass to protect them.

[avd155]

I don't mean to rock the boat here but....wouldn't all this discussion be solved by replacing the original ports (or original style of ports) with true portlights like the ones from newfound metals? I know that's my plan for the ports in my Bristol 27 and from my research it seems even the larger ports will stand up in real rough weather without storm shutters or closures.

[Rachel]

Tom: Well that's a bit unsettling. I'll be interested to hear about whether the acrylic (if that's what it was) "ages." Was there any suggestion that they had been well used; that is, perhaps exposed to years of UV?

avd155: I would guess that many people like the aesthetics of the original ports' shapes and so would rather keep them. Then, too, they make for great views and light when not in blue water - much better viewing from inside the saloon than if looking out the typically smaller replacement ports. And probably most folks spend a much greater percentage of their time inshore, where the standard ports work fine (or will work fine with re-bedding and perhaps a bit of upgrading but with the original shapes/frames). For occasional bluewater use, good storm shutters will then do the trick without the need to give up the former attributes.

Rachel