Worth Restoring?

[JamesPaul]

I have the opportunity to get a 1964 Cheoy Lee Frisco Flyer at very little cost. That's the good news.
The not as good news is that the boat needs a new mast, the teak deck removed, and a complete re-build of the interior. Stll, I'm tempted (and apparently somewhat delusional!).
Is this boat one that you think would be worth the time and work to restore?
Thanks in advance for the input!
James

[Case]

Only you can answer that. In pure financial terms, boats are delusional. So in a way, this forum is filled with delusional people.

Try researching costs. I am pretty sure all of the stuff you want for this sailboat (repairs, replacement, etc) will cost at least 10 grand and maybe several years worth of work before you can even sail. Sailboats like your can be bought for 10-20 grand in the first place (for those in good shape). So... you're not saving money buying a derelict. Not really. If its a custom project that you want to do, then this boat better be no more than a thousand or two. Otherwise, I would say buy a complete one and carry on.

In the end, its your heart that will decide. Good luck.

[Hirilondë]

Only you can answer that. In pure financial terms, boats are delusional. So in a way, this forum is filled with delusional people.

You got that right!!!!!

Anyone who restores an old boat will never get their investment back. Not if you expect even the slightest resemblance to a wage for the time invested. If it is a design that you passionately like, and you are as delusional as the rest of us: Go for it! If you need a common sense or financial sense in your decision making criteria: Forget it! Most of us here do it because we just have to own an older and therefore more beautiful boat than made today or total dollars spent maters and time doesn't. Or maybe some combination of them.

[Triton106]

I agree with Case and Dave, only you can answer that question.

But Choey Lee Frisco Flyer is a beautiful boat. There are two on my dock. One beautifully restored and covered up when not being used. The other completed dilapidated and ignored. It breaks my heart to see that boat everytime I walk past it. From what I understand they are based on the original folkboat design and are very seaworthy. She will bring joy to her next dilusional owner/restore ;-)



Here is an example of a 1965 Frisco Flyer. Doesn't she just melt your heart?

[jeffwagnpete]

Temptation and being delusional are good. I talk to my boat while I work on it and she talks back to me. All old boats deserve a chance just like stray animals do. Thats not being delusional, its being passionate.

[Hulukupu]

I suggest making a careful estimate of the restoration costs and then multiply it by a "delusion factor" (3X?). Compare your best estimate with the cost of buying a used sailboat that someone else has restored and see where you stand.

[Henk]

My 'delusion' factor was twice the estimated time and 5 times (!) the amount of money... If I were to sell her today I'd get only half back. Hummm.
But there is a bright side. I restored the whole boat, everything. Every nut, screw, wire, spar and the engine has been replaced so we now own a new boat for half the price of new one. And we have a lot more fun sailing our 1963 Islander 32 than we would sailing a modern Clorox bleach bottle... Just my opinion. Therefore I raise my half full glass to beautiful classic boats, their delusional owners and this forum.
Cheers.

[Chris Campbell]

Cheers!

[falcon]

In 2002 I had Tim survey a 1967 type III Frisco Flyer and in spite of all the work that he said would be required to bring her back to something that “I could be proud of”, my wife bought her for my 50th birthday. I have admittedly been distracted by work and a re-location, but I have really enjoyed the project...well most of it… and there now appears to be a light at the end of the tunnel. The boat was very well constructed and I was able to salvage and re-lay most of the teak deck. Happy to share what I have learned.

[earlylight]

James,
What a gorgeous vessel. I had the pleasure of sailing a Cheoy Lee Frisco Flyer about 15 years ago on Lake Ontario and I was really impressed with her. We would love to see some pics of the work in progress if you have some.

[Hulukupu]

I'll second that and say what a beautiful birthday present it was...all of that vertical bright work really looks great.

[falcon]

I have lots of photos and will try and post some in the "projects" section.
Pete

[Zach]

I'd go for it if you are willing to make the time.
I'd say go for it, if you want to build that particular boat... and it has picked you.
If, in its derelict state you can't help but see it as a cherry waiting to be plucked.

I fell in love with a Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 early on and talked myself out of it, rightfully so at that junction in time.
All I can say, is that to rebuild a boat with a good hull, and someone with all the tools and knowledge to do it... it takes about 3 months of 40 hour weeks. Call that 500 hours, of working with a fire under your rear end. That means before you go into a project, you have a reasonable idea of what materials will be needed, and have them on hand... and that every hours work, is an actual hour. If you don't do this stuff everyday, it will take longer as there is a learning curve. There is also an endurance curve before your hands give out on a saturday.

To say it differently... thats 10,000 dollars worth of labor. Labor costs run about double materials cost for any scratch built project at wholesale. They are about equal at retail... So imagine yourself 20,000 dollars poorer, with no free time for the next year or so and you will be sailing next summer.

When I started out with Pylasteki, I figured 6 months. That was 3 years ago in July... Time goes in spurts, and unless you can keep on target and task, lots of cans of worms get opened up. Those worms don't can themselves very easily. I've tinkered, piddled, and mad thrashed on her, and she has finally this week turned the corner on the disassembly and is going back together again.



I think you'll find a piece I scribbled down a few years back enlightening...

So You want to Buy a boat.
Get a survey! From a SAMS/NAMS certified surveyor, no matter how inexpensive the boats purchase price, there's a whole lot of expensive stuff on board to go wrong. It's cheap in the long run, maybe 2-3 gallons of epoxy

I had a survey done on another Triton, prior to Tim Lackey (http://www.northernyacht.com) pointing me towards Pylasteki... Didn't have one done on her 'cause I'm dumb, and didn't follow my own past experiences with boats. I still would have bought her knowing what I know now... but it would have been nice to have the head start finding some of her problems. "Gee, you won't be sailing for the next year..."

Here's a story I went through while looking at a (Free) Cheoy lee Bermuda 30 project that wasn't much more than a fiberglass hull. There are some pictures later on of the interior construction... essentially a wooden boat deck on a fiberglass hull, with an added infusion of steel angle iron. There are some boats that fit the old adage "just because you can don’t mean you should" and Free is to much to pay for what you get. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47 ... -3062.html

If she has a wooden mast, under that paint you don't know what’s rotten. If she has concrete and cast iron ballast, there’s a good chance of water damage and other fun stuff.

I think a lot of us dream big... and the difference between dreamers that just dream, and dreamers that get stuff done: A lack of a social life, and love of instant gratification. You will be married to this boat, it'll crawl inside your brain and take up residence. Your priorities will change. The way you live your life will change... if it is to ever get done. (I blame Tim, a little tiny bit... Blame may be the wrong word, as there are few things I'd rather do than work on boats. So... Thanks Tim!)

The costs: If you can't drop the boat in your back yard. If it doesn't have a trailer, it costs money to get it dropped in your back yard. It has to be moored somewhere, or a plot of dirt rented at a boatyard. Then you have to drive to the boat, so tally up the hours both ways, and add in gas prices. Next up... the literature to learn the methods required to repair her. Now if you don’t have the tools, add those too. Now ponder materials costs. For the most part, you can't drive down to Lowes or the hardware store and pick up anything that will give a long lasting economical repair... Deck screws, solid copper wiring, sugar pine and ac plywood don't make the grade.

Nothing. Nothing... is square. Every piece on her must be hand cut, hand crafted, eyeballed, measured, and massaged to fit. Every piece of nautical equipment is slightly different... and must be massaged to fit properly. Do this while standing on your head, wedged into the most contorted position possible. You can't get to anything. Everything must be disassembled. Then "While I'm at it..." you put it back together the stripped screws and rotten wood you found have to be replaced... that bit of corroded wire, and rusted pipe clamp have to be fixed. Eventually something that should take an afternoon has monopolized three weekends, and 12 lunch hours, 7 hours of driving... Then when you get to the boat you forget a widget, and tomorrow you will be finished with it. Except "While I'm at it I need to...."

You've got to source everything prior to doing the work, or it'll take forever. If you don't have a tube of miracle goo, 27 1/4 20 stainless machine screws and 33 sanding disks and be able to produce them in a minute and a half, it'll take you forever. Catalogs coming out your ears... are stacking up all over the place. Pictures, loose sketches... books. Oh gosh, the books.

So: Plan. Everything takes 2-3 times longer (of actually working) than you think it should. Everything will cost 2-3 times more than you think it should. You will do one out of every 3 jobs, 2-3 times getting it right while the learning curve happens. You'll be driven to anger, to tears... and no one in your life (Except your fellow boat owners...) will understand why at dinner you smell like a chemical factory, have a nervous itch, take cold showers and often look like a space alien with respirators, ear muffs, eye glasses, latex gloves, tyvek suits...

100 dollars a week on boat parts is a small number during the buildup of this project. The materials are expensive, there’s a lot of scrap (Curves!) and a lot of potential for screw ups. Then there’s shipping. Can't get it here, warehouse doesn't have it, gotta order it anyway... cheaper online... P.S. Jamestown Distributors. Then there’s the markup, 30% retail so you find it in a catalog and wait for it to arrive. Speed = Expensive. Speed = finish the project. The longer it takes, the more it costs... work fast. Power tools baby!

It'll be to hot, then too cold. Rainy... windy... You can't paint because the humidity is too high. You can't finish installing the ____ because the paint hasn't dried... This all means that in order to make efficient use of your time you have to juggle multiple projects at once. Wiring, plumbing, rigging, engine, structural... and we haven't even started making things look nice.

The car blows up, you have to fix some other project with your new found skills. You take a week off that turns into a month... catch the flu, acquire a significant other... have to work another job to afford your boat habit.

If you made it this far, you have the bug. You will end up with a boat no matter what you do. What are you waiting for! Buy it! Send pictures... (Grin)
If you don't have time; hire Tim so he can send us pictures! We need more boat porn in this world! (Sorry for whoring you out Tim, but it had to be done... Grin)

[bcooke]

All I can say, is that to rebuild a boat with a good hull, and someone with all the tools and knowledge to do it... it takes about 3 months of 40 hour weeks.

I would say that's pretty optimistic but I guess that depends on what the definition of a 'rebuild' is in your book. If I were to guess what a 30 foot boat would take working full time (with a fire on your backside) I would lean towards the 6-9 month range. That would depend a lot on the system upgrades and any changes in the original design of course. Tools, knowledge and materials including all the bits and pieces in place and ready to go. I swear shopping for the right parts takes half my time these days.

Maybe I just work slow. Okay, I know I work slow...

Don't do it unless you truly want the experience and the boat is exactly what you want. Restoring a boat is the most expensive way to get a boat.