Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

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Hirilondë
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Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Hirilondë »

I am starting a new thread in response to requests from Rachel and KITTIEanME so as to leave the other thread on topic.

Image

The ports themselves are simply 1/2" poly carbonate cut to shape and to overlap the rough openings in the cabin sides. Then the entire perimieter of the pieces are rounded over on a router and polished to near clear. The pieces are then through bolted to the cabin over a generous bedding of Sikaflex 291-LOT The bolts are counter sunk oval heads on the exterior and just long enough to accept a washer and nut on the interior.

The interior trims are all made from a single pattern. They overlap the interior of the cabin sides by a wide enough margin to cover all the nuts/bolt ends. They also over lap the polycarbonate. The are made totally in the shop out of 4 pieces cut on the bands saw. They are mitered and splined at the 4 corners to make a unit. They are then faired, smoothed, and routed over on the inside and outside edges. I then rabbeted the back sides to sit flush on both the polycarbontate and the fiberglass interior of the cabin. I then layed out the locations of all the nuts/bolt and using a forstner bit I drilled a recess to encase the nuts/bolts so as not to hold the trims away from the cabin and ports. I then finish sanded, varnished, sanded, varnished, yada yada until pleased. The trims were then installed as opposite pairs simply by bedding them in place with Sikaflex and using sticks across the cabin to hold the opposite pairs in place while the Sikaflex cured.

The 4 trims are identical in shape so 2 pairs of mirrored trims. The rabbet and nut/bolt recesses were done individually, so now each trim fits only a specific port. It was a somewhat tedious project to get all 4 to fit their assigned port. But it meant if aligned properly during installation, each port would look identical and be aligned on the interior. The original openings are not beautifully cut out, but I did not want to enlarge anything.

I hope this answers the questions.
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Triton106 »

Oh my oh my oh my... Drool... I am speechless.

Dave, have you thought of making it for other Triton and Renegate owners for sale? I have thought of similiar ideas but I know I don't have the skills to accomplish it.

What does the exterior look like? Any pictures of the outside view will be much appreciated.
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by KITTIEanME »

Hirilonde you did an excellant job building those port trims. I am pretty sure I understand the method you used and I am going to try and replicate them on my Kittiwake 23 but I will be using thick Lexan for the exterior. They will be somewhat smaller so I should be able to do a halfway decent job with the tools I have. In my earlier years I had a wooden H-28 that required a lot of wood replaced so maybe this job will bring back some skills I haven't used for awhile. I,ll post some pictures when I do the ports but don,t expect them to look as good as yours. Thank you for the explanation. TOM - Kittiwake 23
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Rachel
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Rachel »

Thanks for starting this thread and explaining - much appreciated.

I would also really like to see a photo of the exterior, if you have one to post.

I guess the Lexan is on the outside of the cabin and overlaps it? So on the inside you would have the cabin sides and then a step "down" to the Lexan and so the rabbet would be on the outer edges of the new trim?

Those really are gorgeous!

Rachel
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Hirilondë »

Thanks for the kind words.
Triton106 wrote: What does the exterior look like? Any pictures of the outside view will be much appreciated.
Image

I don't have any close ups and the boat is under a tarp so this is all I have for now.

I have made similar trims for other boats. I got most of the design idea from replacing the trims on a Rhodes Reliant 41 (one of my most favorite boats of all time). Making them for other boats as a piece to be installed by someone else might be feesible, but would require additional fitting by the installer. This would include making the recesses for the nuts/bolts. If there was a market for such products I would certainly consider doing it. I would have to visit several of the boat to make sure that the rough openings were consistent enough. If the boat still had the original openenings from when the metal trims were used it might be doable for an unseen boat. The project might require a visit to verify the pattern would work. That would definitely make me feel more comfortable proceeding. There is a lot of labor in these trims. I can write it off on my boat because my time is worth it to me on my boat. But to build an expensive boat component for others would at least require it would fit, or at least be able to be tweaked to fit.
Rachel wrote:I guess the Lexan is on the outside of the cabin and overlaps it? So on the inside you would have the cabin sides and then a step "down" to the Lexan and so the rabbet would be on the outer edges of the new trim?
Exactly.
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Quetzalsailor »

I learned a long time ago that you are a very fine craftsman. Absolutely beautiful things everywhere you look in the picture. I particularly like the wild grain in the trim. (For the others: When you do all your milling with high-speed tools, like a router, and sanding, you can get great results with unruly grain.)

I also like the unvarnished non-skid strips on the treads. Very pretty and functional. Negatives would be routine cleanup, dog claws, comfort under bare feet. I read somewhere, so it must be true, that the traditional teak and holly sole actually had the holly strips standing proud of the teak. Perhaps the strips could be recessed in the varnished surface, and stand proud only 1/16" or so.

Our LeComte has embossed sheet metal surfaces with extruded aluminum nosings. Well into the tacky zone!
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Rachel »

Quetzalsailor wrote: I read somewhere, so it must be true, that the traditional teak and holly sole actually had the holly strips standing proud of the teak. Perhaps the strips could be recessed in the varnished surface, and stand proud only 1/16" or so.
Just as a trivia note: I had the idea that traditional teak and holly soles started out "level," and then (by design) the holly strips ended up standing proud because they were harder and thus did not wear at the same rate.

So now I'm curious which way it was: Install them with the holly strips proud, or install them evenly and wait for the inevitable wear? Or maybe it varied.

Rachel
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Seems to me that a picture and a note were on the Fife site. Boy, if you ever feel the need to drool on pictures of gorgeous boats and outstanding restorations, sniff around that site!
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by sail_fix »

Dave, I must add my congratulations to the others! Fine design and execution. I can never seem to get my varnish to look that good!

In case others are planning to add external Lexan (r) lenses, I would like to suggest a good way to adhere them.
When we bought our boat in '94, the four fixed port were external Lexan lenses, and the teak on the inside cabin wall was water-stained from rain leaks. The factory had screwed them down with pan-head ss screws in oversized holes (done right), and squished out most of the black sealant (done very wrong).

A shipwright and boat restorer explained how to do it right. I followed his advice when we put new lenses on in '95, and they have never leaked a drop since.
The "trick" is to "float" the lens on about an eight inch of sealant. Lexan has quite a bit of thermal expansion, from cold to hot... I figured out once that if our whole boat were made of this plastic it would be about a foot longer on a really warm day... :)
By having the lens on a significant layer of sealant, it can expand and contract without breaking the adhesion on either the lens side or the boat cabin side.

We left the paper on the inside of the lens except for the margin around the edge where it would lay against the cabin side. That exposed strip of Lexan was then roughed up with some 80 grit. The frp cabin side that would be covered was also cleaned with acetone and roughed up similarly. Then we did the dry fit and used a LOT of 3M blue tape to protect everything out for several inches... (Inside and Outside).
The recommended sealant (altho certainly not the only choice) was BoatLife "LifeSeal". This will bond to plastics and not dissolve them. We used black.

As to how to "float" that lens.... the best trick turned out to be... O Rings! Get some that are about 1/8" thick and a little bigger than the screws. Lay down the sealant and place each O ring around each screw hole (mark 'em on the tape and check for centers with a toothpick too). Place the lens on and press it down. Put the screws in, being careful to stop tightening before you cause a depression around the screw. You will need a roll of paper towels and a helper and a five gallon bucket with a plastic liner. It's messy work.
:(
Once it sets for a while and you pull up the tape, the result is great. Last thing was to remove the rest of the protective paper from both sides (I had previously cut it away from each screw head on the outside).
Fiddly work, and some occasional swearing will be involved.
Like I said, though, 15 years later there is never a leak. UV does not like Lexan, and nowadays we have to polish up the surface every three months and then put some protectant on it.

Hope this post is not too long, but this is a job that you want to only do ... Once!
:)
Regards,
L
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by KITTIEanME »

Sail_fix thanks for the explanation. Placing the thick Lexan on the exterior with the screws exposed is what I had planned to do also. I have seen a number of boats that seem to have problems with the screws exposed on the exterior lexan and now I know why. Along with Daves explanation for the interior port trim I am ready to go as soon as this weather gets warmer.


By the way Dave you have a beautiful boat. The exterior is exactly what I had envisioned after seeing your work on the interior. TOM from VA
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Rachel »

I've never done this job, but I just recently read a trick for making them look tidier on the outside: Mask off the inside of the lens so that only the section that is going to overlap the cabinside is showing, then scuff sand it and spray paint it black. That way you don't see the caulk or sealant.

Again, I haven't tried it, so I don't know of any hidden pitfalls; just thought I would write it here as an idea.

Rachel
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Triton106 »

I have also thought of the following approach:

1. Move the lexan windown from outside the cabin to the inside of the cabin so from the outside the window appears recessed in the cabin coaming. Kind of look like the window in this Morris Yacht from the outside.

Image

2. So now the window inside the cabin looks like the outside of the cabin picture on Dave's boat. Now you build a trim around the window to hide the hardware and edge of the window like the way Dave did in his picture.

Any comments will be much appreciated.
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by mdidriksen »

We decided to move the glass to the inside when we did this on my S&S 34. We went with laminated safety glass instead of lexan.

First, a cutout made of G10 that exactly matched the shape of the glass was glued to the interior side of the cabin:

Image

Then, the glass was glued into the cabin sides, with the edges of the glass being glued to the G10 (don't have a picture of this), and the interior cabin sides were then screwed (no through bolts) into the G10:

Image

Here is the end result from the exterior:

Image

While it is likely not as strong as through bolting from the exterior, the reality is that my time spent offshore will be quite limited, so the compromise was worth it in exchange for the cleaner look on the exterior. Now that I've seen the trim pieces on Hirilondë (very nice), I have another task on my to do list . . .
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by KITTIEanME »

Wow, theres a lot of decisions to be made here. I didn't know there were so many ways to mount fixed ports. I appreciate all the different approaches to installing the ports, I am learning a lot. I have about a month before the work begins, and I am glad for that fact. My trash bucket is full of balled up paper already.

I hope this is not a dumb question but what is G10? I assume its, a common item but I can't make the connection. Is it the green or white or both? TOM
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Rachel »

In these photos, it's the green (although you can paint it so perhaps some of the white is painted G-10).

G-10 (aka "Garolite") is a grade of pre-made fiberglass; it comes in sheets, bars, tubes, angles, and what-have-you and in many different grades.

I find the pre-made fiberglass to have a lot of handy uses, I typically either use the "plain" FRP, which is a medium/dark green color, or the GP03, which is red "electrical grade." They're both made with polyester resin (see note below). I started using the red for things that were going to be tapped, because I heard that it tapped better than the plain green, but I have not done any testing or research to know that for sure.

The McMaster catalog gives tons of info and specs for all the different grades so that you can see which grade you need (and thus don't need to spend more for a higher grade unless it's required or you want to).

Here is a link to the various FRP types (that are not G-10) products in the McMaster-Carr catalog:

http://www.mcmaster.com/param/asp/PSear ... nWidth=781

Here is a link to G-10/Garolite in the same catalog:

http://www.mcmaster.com/param/asp/PSear ... nWidth=781

Note: I normally favor epoxy resin because of the greater secondary bonding, but since the board is already made, it doesn't matter in the same way as it does when you are using liquid resin to bond something in your shop/boat.

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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by KITTIEanME »

I knew it, or should have! Thanks Rachel for the information, now I have to shift through all the options that have opened up with these frp sheets. It will keep an old mind working during these winter months. I hate winter.

Also thanks to all others for sharing your knowledge and skills. TOM
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Tim »

An important distinction that I don't think came through clearly above: G-10 is an epoxy-based fiberglass laminate. It's factory-produced to extremely high and consistent standards. Very, very good, hard, dense, heavy, expensive stuff, and overkill for many applications.

Note that the polyester prefab fiberglass products Rachel mentioned above are also good quality and excellent for many uses. It doesn't always have to be G-10. The green polyester board is excellent; personally I only use the red board when it comes in a size that's not available in the green. I reserve G-10 for only the most critical applications, such as through hull backing pads or chainplate knees or the like.

(Semi-related: the red polyester "electrical grade" board is less dense and made mostly or entirely of chopped mat, whereas the green polyester FRP laminate is much denser, harder, and contains fiberglass cloth or roving; it's stronger than the red board.)
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Hirilondë »

Rachel wrote:I've never done this job, but I just recently read a trick for making them look tidier on the outside: Mask off the inside of the lens so that only the section that is going to overlap the cabinside is showing, then scuff sand it and spray paint it black. That way you don't see the caulk or sealant.
I have done it. It works. But you get the exact same results by using black bedding.

I have used the black back painting technique on acrylic and polycarbonate for use as base plates for instruments and the tops of dorade boxes. It has a nice look.

Hinckley fixed ports are mounted from the inside and look just like the the Morris ports from the outside. They use safety glass and aluminum frames that secure in drilled and tapped holes with machine screws. Regardless of the materials you use, I would suggest some type of mechanical fastening the didn't require holes in the glass/plastic. A good overlapping trim well secured along with an adhesive bedding and you can make up for the fact that the port is mounted from inside.

There are certainly many ways to do fixed ports.

Thanks again all for the kind words. Its amazing what you can do to an old boat if you pour way too much time and energy into it ;>)
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by KITTIEanME »

I have enjoyed this discussion thoroughly and now I,am going to enjoy trying the different methods on paper which means staying in my shop a lot and thats good. I am tired of varnishing. So far varnishing and preparing (grinding) the inside hull for the new partition is what I,ve been doing. Tim I like your saying "what the boat wants the boat will get" your restoration site is an inspiration, therefore the boat will get what it wants, ( with my wifes blessing of course ).

Dave I have the time(retired) but as far as the energy, thats up for grabs. TOM
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Rachel »

Tim,

Thanks for clarifying that. I had something in there originally that made the distinction between G-10/epoxy and FRP/polyester, but I did some editing for (supposed) clarity and somehow that got lost.

I didn't know that about the red (GP03) vs. green. I wonder why someone thought the red was better for tapping? :shrug: Anyway, thank you for pointing out the difference.

Rachel
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Tim »

I am guessing the red stuff was purported to be easier to tap because it is much, much less dense and hard than the green.

I have no problems tapping the green, nor G-10 for that matter.
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Re: Hirilondë's interior fixed port trim

Post by Zach »

Way cool thread.

I'm thinking about using the G10 method of glass holding, to put together a smoked glass window in one of the showers on Noel. That'd be a slick, easy to clean way to go about holding everything together.
I don't like fastener holes in stuff like that.
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