Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

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avd155

Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by avd155 »

I own a 1975 Bristol 27 that, like so many other Carl Alberg designed boats, has a molded fiberglass head liner (maybe there's a better name for it?). My liner isn't in really bad shape, just needs some patching here and there, but I am considering removing it. Let me list the pro's and con's (as I see them) and maybe someone can help me make a final decision:

Keep:
+ Gives the interior a "finished" look
+ Easy to Clean
+ Creates a vapor barrier that drains dripping water into the lockers *
+ Cheaper due to no need to remove the old liner, then fair the rough fiberglass and paint the overhead with multiple coats of primer and paint

Remove:
+ Some say it gives the interior that "fiberglass boat" look
+ Removing allows for easier access for mounting all deck hardware
+ Painted cabin "roof" can look just as nice as the liner (as seen in this image of Kaholee: http://www.lackeysailing.com/kaholee/ph ... erior1.jpg)
+ Increase head room a little (~1/4")
+ Deck hardware backing plates would fit more snugly directly against the deck
+ Determining exactly which piece of hardware is leaking will be difficult
+ Deck hardware installation in general should be easier

After considering the list above, I've tentatively decided to remove the liner. My main reason for wanting to remove it is simply to full access to all through bolted hardware. I have considered the option of installing wood cladding or insulation, but then I am faced with the same issue of not enough hardware access. Decisions decisions...

For a moment, let me consider keeping the liner. How can I mount the backing plates to the deck hardware? Do people just "smush" together the liner with the deck fiberglass? This seems like a bad design. Do people cut holes out of their liner to get the backing plates more flush with the deck fiberglass? I'd love to see some photos if anyone has them.

While this is my first time posting here, I can say that I've learned more valuable information here than any other forum out there.

Also, if you want to learn more about my boat repair project you should check out my extensive website (also covers all information about Bristol 27's): http://bristol27.com/

* Any first hand knowledge of how well does this actually work? Does it work at all?
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Zach »

I'd remove it... Cuts down on the weight on board, and when you've got a winch that leaks you know about it before it starts dripping on your bunk and creating a mold farm behind the liner.

Fine print: Sanding overhead sucks. Get a few of these for the curves: http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... sa=image#p

Chuck them into a corded drill you don't care about, and they'll burn through the pokey fiberglass strands that tear your sandpaper, and work into tighter corners that you can get a Porter Cable 5 inch sander. (Grin...)

Wear a few down to the proper diameter for working the inside corner of the dog house, and set them aside... then walk them down along the length of the boat with the drill pointing either to the bow or stern, and disc perpendicular the boats centerline.

When you go back to fair it... get a couple pieces of foam rubber sanding block, and sticky backed inline paper. (Or spray adhesive on some regular stuff.) For doing the funky corners that are ever present...

As far as getting comfortable, you'll have already pulled out anything made of cloth so you don't get glass dust in it... So if you are tall and the working conditions suck, build a little bench that spans the gap between the settees... gives you enough clearance to put your hands above your head rather than working at ear level bent over like the old hunch back bellringer. (Grin)

Put down the angle grinder... Pylasteki had some really bad half moon marks all over her interior. Good job for a soft pad on an adjustable speed buffer... or a random orbital sander.

Cheers,

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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Quetzalsailor »

There's a lot to be said for not tearing it out. It's there. It's neat. It's done. It'd be a pain to tear it out and make something neat to go back. Lots of otherwise lovely '60's boats have really nasty-looking overheads; we took a gorgeous, classic 40 footer 'off the list' because of that. Some of these fiberglass overheads are actually structural, providing stiffness to the deck. All it has to have to be structural is an adequate spacing system - blocking, pats of foamed polyester, ribs, etc. Mounting stuff on the roof can be done by adding washers, tubes of something good, between the thicknesses. Tubes can be tubes of stainless, aluminum, fiberglass, cast-in-place fiberglass or reinforced epoxy. Of course, you'll have to look at the fastenings and the backups on your otherwise clean overhead.

You could leave most of it in place and hack freely within carefully thought-out areas for access. Then decorate those carefully thought-out areas with applied surfaces of your choice. Lots of current boats have accessible overheads with removable panels, Velcroed and cloth-covered areas, etc.

My own bete noire is the foam-cored deck in our NE 38 which has 1/2" plywood strips screwed on and to that is screwed a European version of Masonite. It still looks good, mostly and repairably. Some few of the strips are rotted but the Masonite is unharmed. Unfortunately, the Masonite is sandwiched between handholds and trapped above bulkheads and house side liners, so major and careful demolition is required for repair as well as for adding house top goodies like lines led aft.
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Tim »

Beware that beneath that liner it might look something like this. These molded interior liners are secured with who-knows-what sort of globs of gunk, which is extremely difficult if not impossible/impractical to remove to a smooth surface suitable for painting and liveability. I know I'd never be willing to put in the work to smooth a disgusting mess like this to something worthy of exposure.

Unless your liner is in poor condition, leave it in.

Image

Image
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by barrybrown »

I have owned and refurbished two Tritons both with headliners, in both cases I left them in and also fastened numerous things through them. The procedure that I use is:
Drill through the top layer of fiberglass and the balsa core.
Clean out the balsa with a bent nail or similar tool.
Fill with slightly thickened epoxy and let cure.
Drill through to the liner (but not through it).
Using a West System syringe pump some well thickened epoxy into the hole and let cure.
Then drill for the fasteners. Acorn nuts work best where you may hit your head.

If you are patching holes from removed equipment the procedure is the same with the liner as without. This assumes that you intend to paint the liner.

Barry
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by falcon »

I have been very pleased with the results of covering the bare fiberglass in the cabin roof of my Cheoy Lee Frisco Flyer with a good quality hardwood beadboard painted an off white. I attached it to the raw fiberglass using brass round-headed screws and finish washers so that it could be dropped if needed. The finished look is very "Herreshoffy" I will try and post a photo if I can fiqure out how to do it.
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by falcon »

New Headliner
Attachments
New Headliner.jpg
Stripped flyer interior 1.jpg
Cheoy Lee Frisco Flyer "work in progress"
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Matt B. »

I like that beadboard look. I'll have to make a note of that for my own headliner replacement.
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by jeffwagnpete »

Huh. I was faced with this same issue about a month ago. I wanted to tear the entire liner out to, I had to cut parts of the liner out in order for me to replace the rotted out balsa core, so now, I am faced with somehow getting a sheet of fiberglass or something to replace the parts I already tore out. Oh and also, I was so keen on taking that liner out I started to cut using an anlgle grinder and a universal cutter, until a professional who came to check out my work said, "what the heck you doing!" "Leave that in", so I stopped cutting, so now I have to bond my cut line, thankfully it was only one cut. I actually jumped out of scardness because grinding is loud and I had ear plugs and he really yelled at me to stop. My boat is a Pearson Ariel, so I would leave it in. Less work to leave it in.
avd155

Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by avd155 »

Seems like a lot of opinions for both sides, but it sounds like Tim suggests to keep it in. That beadboard does look pretty nice. Did to epoxy in cleats to screw into, or just straight into the fiberglass?

Does anyone out there have some images of deck hardware actually mounted to the liner? I haven't really seen any and was wondering if it looks as bad as I imagine...

Also, Barry, when you said
barrybrown wrote:Drill through to the liner (but not through it).
...did you mean drill through the liner, but not the deck fiberglass?
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by barrybrown »

All of the holes are drilled from the top (outside), when you drill through to the liner it is through the hole you just filled with epoxy. What you are attempting to do is to fill the void between the liner and coach roof (in the area of the fastener) with thickened epoxy to provide a solid area for your washers or backing plates to press against and also to eliminate any space for water migration.
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by jhenson »

Image


My Tartan 34 does not have a liner in the main salon. The panels are held in place by strips of ¾” plywood glued to the bottom skin where you see the teak “beams“. This leaves enough space for hardware backing plates and foil backed insulation.

The panels are removed right now while I replace the Formica along the cabin sides with teak plywood. I can take a picture of the overhead if you are interested.

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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Quetzalsailor »

You can get fiberglass panels made for commercial foodservice and bathroom spaces. The stuff doesn't look bad except that it's too shiny in my taste. What does look bad are the 'H' section plastic edge strips and the plastic buttons for intermediate screws or nails. You can also get similar looking PVC panels from the Despot. Same positives and negatives.

The wood strips in the previous post would obviate the 'H' section strips. I have them for the Masonite in Quetzal and they're just as unattractive there, too.

I don't remember whether the beaded panel is plywood or plastic in the above example; both are available.

Also, referring to the previous example, care and thought needs to be taken about the span of the panel. It might be my glasses or the camera lens, but the bead lines seem to give an appearance of sag. Non-directional panels will mask that effect somewhat. So would running the beaded pattern in the other direction. Fiberglass should be more resistant to drooping over time than the PVC or Masonite. Neither the PVC nor fiberglass will warp with the damp like the Masonite or plywood does.

For the fellow who's replacing the Formica with Teak plywood, I recommend coating out the back and edges of the fitted piece with epoxy. No sense allowing a leak to ruin your work. I repaired the Makore and Masonite panels in Q's head and coated them out with epoxy a couple years ago. The head's operable port has been left open enough to prove the concept.
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Idon84 »

Chiming in here, I'm not a fan of liners of any kind. Granted I don't know enough about a bristol or triton to know how they are set up but for me seeing the fasteners is extremely important to me even over looks. Of course I don't think I sailed on a boat with a headliner until just this year. And when I did the owner was asking me how to fix this or find that leak all of which were somewhere under the liner.

I removed my liner during my rebuild which was 1/4" pine slats running fore and aft attached under with 1/2" plywood screwed to the underside of the deck. Also notice that the idea was carried to the cabin sides as well. 4 of my 6 portholes had rotten cores around them because, 1. the core was not protected when the portholes were installed and, 2. although I knew there was a leak somewhere it was next to impossible to track down what were leaking. The water didn't just drip right underneath the porthole but about 3 feet forward of this position where I was concentrating the search. Only after all of this came out did I figure out what was going on.
IMG_0018.JPG
Some of the older BCC's have this kind of liner. Just about all now have a pieces of gelcoat paneling that looks a lot like the pictures from Falcon or jhenson. These gelcoat panels are not cheap. I paid $375 for a 8'x8' panel from Cape George Marine works in Pt. Townsend WA. If I were doing it the same way the boats came factory I would need something like 5 or 6 of these pannels to get the whole boat done. They look nice and you can see your mounting bolts though it. You cannot, however, put any insulation if that is something you want. I would glue it into position using several cheap shower curtain rods to hold it while the epoxy/polyester cured.
2062752_3.jpg
I decided to only cover my bulkheads in the galley and salon with the panels so I only have to buy 2. All of the other areas I have ground smooth and I am currently sanding a microballoon filler that is under the cabin top and cabin sides to accept paint later. As Tim stated earlier with pictures etc. it is NOT an easy job to get the area ready for a smooth paint job. You can only work so long above you head. Every time I sand I make it a point to do a little more on the overheads for about 15 minutes.

The picture below is another BCC that didn't even try and just painted. You can easily see the fiberglass weave. Some people think it's ugly, but the rest of the boat has such beautiful wood work that you really don't even notice.
IMG_0011.JPG
Good luck in what ever you choose!
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Idon84 »

I might add too that just about all of the "beauty" work on our boat is because my wife. I'm more of a Bernard Moitessier type, I just need a hull and a rig to go sailing, everything else is secondary. If it were me I would just toss on a bunch of white paint and call it good. Granted it's ugly but who cares. It's my little RV on the water.

But, I love my wife and agree that there should be some beauty... That just means it will take another 6 months to a year to finish her though... ugh...
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Lloyd »

avd155 Welcome to Tim's site that is just full of info and a great bunch of sailors. Tim thanks for the great site.

I also own a Bristol 27 that I am working on. I've had it for seven years and haven't gotten very far on it yet. Maybe someday....

As to your question about the head liner. I am leaving mine in place. Barry's ideas on how to deal with new hardware holes is the way to go. The cabin top is cored so you have to deal with the core on new holes so adding the step of using thickened epoxy between the liner and the cabin top is a good one. That creates a solid top in that area. Any water leaking will not get between the top and the liner. The backing plate will then have a solid area under it. Access will be just like any other place. All backing plates/washers, nuts will be on the inside of the liner and not under it. The same as if you took the liner out and painted.

The side walls of the cabin top are not cored and I feel the liner helps to add strength to them. I epoxyed the liner to the side wall at the port openings. I hope this will help in stopping leaks between the wall and liner after the ports are reinstalled.

On the vapor barrier/ dripping water thing. I don't have a clue if that is a problem. Someone else have an thoughts on that?

By the way. I just happened to find your site yesterday when I Googled Bristol 27. It looks good. I hope you continue to gather pictures of Bristol 27's. It's nice to have them all in one place. Thanks. I will be following your work.
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by John Stone »

Hi,
I am in the middle of a significant restoration/refit/modification to my Cape Dory 36. I had a one piece fiberglass headliner in my boat. I cut it out. It was nasty work. I feared for my sanity when I was doing it. But I am very happy that it is out. There are a lot of reasons for cutting it out and not too many for keeping it except for one very good one--it is a lot of work to cut it out and then put something else in. I will be installing V-groove style panel with complete access to the overhead. It was worth it to me to make this mod. If you're interested you can get the story and pictures by going to
http://farreachvoyages.com/guttingtheinterior.html

Best of luck.

John
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Rich P »

I've got rid of mine, simply to access the nuts of all the old deck hardware I was binning, didn't want it rattling away!
I'll reserve my advice till i've put a new lining in, a common solution over hear is to glass in wood strips on the deck head and the screw plywood panels that have had a sort of leathery white headlining stuff wrapped around them and stapled on around the back. This makes it look good, and the panels are easy to remove to access the deck head, you can also hide wiring and insulation behind them. :)
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Tim »

Ripping out molded liners is great if you have plans to put in something cosmetic to cover the raw laminate beneath. I'm no fan of molded liners.

However, that's really not what the original poster was asking about.. It sounded to me like he wanted to remove the liner and not put anything back--just paint the exposed laminate. This might work if one can live with the appearance of painted fiberglass, and there are sound reasons for not wanting a liner of any type, but it might involve lot of time-consuming and unpleasant work to smooth the exposed laminate to something even a true back-to-basics person could love, if it looks anything like my pictures above (probably a worse-case scenario, but still generally representative of what things might look like beneath).

Here's another example of what it could look like beneath a liner. In this case, there were numerous blobs of resin holding the liner in rather than the heavy beads in my earlier photos. Still, this was a lot of work to clean up, even though it was ultimately invisible in the finished interior. It would have required even more work to bring to anything approaching an expose-able finish on its own.

Image

There are as many different ways to cover a raw laminate as there are boats, but that's not really addressing the original question. The question was about whether no liner was better than the existing liner, and what pitfalls might exist with either choice. Having no liner at all can be great in terms of fastener access, but only if one can achieve an appropriate appearance given what exists to start with, and based on one's own expectations for how pleasing the finish might be.

In any event, one would be wise not to underestimate the amount of work it might require to remove and then rebuild a suitable interior liner or other finish, and this should always factor into the ultimate choice.
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by Rich P »

That picture Tim, is pretty much exactly like the deckhead of my boat after I took out the interior liner, I've only sanded the blocks away where I've needed to access the deck hardware. (They covered all the nuts and washers in it as well)
Probably one of the most frustrating practices to deal with on my boat!
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Re: Fiberglass Head Liner - Should It Stay or Go?

Post by John Stone »

I agree with Tim that not having a head liner and finishing the overhead smooth would be very very difficult--I missed that part of the post. Having just grinded on my boat's bare overhead, to prep it for the "cleats" I'll install for a removable headliner, made a big impression on me just how difficult it would be to prepare the whole thing for a smotth finish.

Best of luck.
John
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