Lifelines

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galleywench
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Lifelines

Post by galleywench »

I was stripping my decks of hardware last week and was struck by the beauty of the boat without any deck clutter, just the simple lines of the boat (alberg 35) without anything else to distract. It seemed to me that the boat looked better without the lifelines, pulpit, and pushpit. I didn't really think anything about it until I was leafing through the latest Cruising World issue and noticed that the Morris M52 featured also had no lifelines, pulpit, and pushpit. I went the to Morris site and found that their entire M series does not come with them (although the stantion bases are installed in case you want to enter into an offshore race like Newport-Bermuda). Next I began looking up S&S designs (the Morris 36 is an S&S design, not sure about the whole M series though) and many of Olin's most famous designs (Stormy Weather, Dorade) often were pictured without lifelines or pulpit and pushpit.

So, I guess my question is, do I have to put them back on? My experiences with lifelines in particular are not good. First of all, I am 6'5" and standard lifelines do not keep me on board, they just make sure that when I do hit the water, I go head first instead of feet first (lifelines come to my knees and only trip me up). My other experiences seem to point to lifelines being one of the bigger factors for water intrusion into the core and general below deck leaks. Something always happens to open up the deck around the stantion base because of either you coming in too hard on a piling, a guest putting all of their weight right up top while hoisting their ample girth aboard, or something out of your control like banging against a dock during a storm because someone untied your spring line.

I probably will put them back on once the decks are re-cored, but has anyone else at least thought the same thing or am I crazy?
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Re: Lifelines

Post by bcooke »

Boats look much better without lifelines and pulpits.

Sometimes the pulpits and lifelines just trip you up before sending you over the side.

Most of the time however they catch you which is why they are there. When the deck is heaving around you are likely to be crawling around on your knees and then they are high enough.

I think some of the fancy high end boats don't put lifelines or pulpits on simply because they don't expect to the boat operators to have to leave the enclosed cockpit under any condition. I think that is a silly idea and I wouldn't own one of those boats but I think that is the reason. You note that the stanchion bases are installed on the 'M' series for offshore racing rules. I think those rules are there for a good reason.
So, I guess my question is, do I have to put them back on?
It is your boat. You can set it up exactly the way you want it.

I didn't have any on my boat last season. The boat looks much better but I wouldn't want to go forward to change headsails or unsnag a jib sheet with the deck bouncing around either. My boat sails along quite well without me on board...
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Ric in Richmond »

Boy I hear you!!!

I have an A35 and agree 100% about all the lifelines and tubing.

I pondered it briefly but chose to reinstall mainly for others, not me.

I have never used a life line to stay on board that I can remember, but I have kids and non sailors aboard and I think they need to be there.

One factor in favor of the A35 and NO lifelines is the high bulwarks, At least you have a place to put a foot if you have to crawl forward one day.

Maybe you could do without the pulpits and just bring the lines to deck level front and rear??? That was one of my options I thought of...but we hang too much stuff on the pushpit. (grill/ speakers/ lifesling)
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Tim »

If you don't want pulpits and lifelines, then by all means don't install them. No one says you have to, other than certain racing requirements, which probably don't factor in anyway. It's totally a personal choice.

I think one reason people often dislike how lifelines and pulpits look on a boat is because the equipment is frequently old, ratty, dated, and poorly-maintained and unsafe. Loose, dangling, vinyl-coated lifelines atop wiggly, bent stanchions and pulpits that were welded together with no sense of aesthetics are a terrible thing to behold no matter what.

Sturdy rails and well-installed stanchions, with sound and tight lifelines that aren't corroding into nothingness, look a lot better than cruddy old crooked cheap junk that one sees swinging in the breeze on so many boats. Properly installed and -maintained equipment is much safer as well, and won't cause deck problems either.

I don't "rely" on mine--one never should and no one really ever does, or even suggests that it's one reason to have them--but I find them to be pretty darn handy despite that, at least on a cruising boat. I'd say I use the lifelines as handholds just about every time I go forward, at least while underway. There are other places you can hang on, but I trust my lifelines as a handhold, which is really all they're ever intended to be. This is different than expecting them to save my skin, which I do not.

Then again, I'm not a minimalist and actually like the way my pulpits and stanchions look, so take it for what it's worth. Mine are new and strong and secure. I now have uncoated wire lifelines, which tend to visually disappear from any distance as well, and I like them a lot better than the old white-coated ones.

Certain boats should never have lifelines or pulpits, and other boats can go either way based on one's personal choices.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Homer »

Interesting topic. As I am slowly stripping everything off the deck to prepare for painting, I cannot help but admire my (S&S-designed) beauty in her unadorned state. I don't think lifelines will go back up for a while. My justification is warmer, nearshore waters, a decent toe rail, and a standing rule for inflatable PFDs (with harnesses on well-placed jacklines in all but the best of conditions). Even our dog has a PFD. I am only 6'2", but did manage to get tripped and injured while exiting the foredeck during a race in college. In hindsight, I would have much preferred to simply slip off into the water. From that day on I have not much trusted lifelines, particularly when standing. Others (who were sitting or crouching?) will certainly have been saved by them. At least for now, our preference is to be closely attached to the boat with quality gear. One hand is always holding on to something and the toe rail is put to good use. Proper gear is not a cheap option when several people are aboard, but it is a fairly secure one. Perhaps there is something to be said for the Morris setup with removable lifelines. I am going to look into that.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by galleywench »

Ric in Richmond wrote: I pondered it briefly but chose to reinstall mainly for others, not me.
I have never used a life line to stay on board that I can remember, but I have kids and non sailors aboard and I think they need to be there.
This is really the only reason I will probably put them back on. I have 2 kids who are like cats on the boat but often don't recognize their stability limits.
Ric in Richmond wrote: One factor in favor of the A35 and NO lifelines is the high bulwarks, At least you have a place to put a foot if you have to crawl forward one day.
Relying on the high bulwarks is IMHO a better option at least for me. I cruised and raced aboard a classic New York 32 for many seasons and until the owner entered the Newport-Bermuda race, he never had lifelines. I became very good at going forward in some pretty nasty conditions using only the bulwarks and handholds for bracing. I adopted the same technique when I bought my Alberg. I probably look funny but I always stay on the boat.
Ric in Richmond wrote: Maybe you could do without the pulpits and just bring the lines to deck level front and rear??? That was one of my options I thought of...but we hang too much stuff on the pushpit. (grill/ speakers/ lifesling)
Thats a thought, I have seen some classics with that configuration.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Henk »

After our refit I went without lifelines for six months. Yes, it looked sleek and pretty but I felt very vulnerable. I usually sail solo and the lifelines are my last 'safety net'. I do not depend on them, nor will I trust them, although the stanchions are through bolted with four 1/4" bolts, but it is comforting to know that there is something there to grab onto, and stop/slow my fall of the deck or cabin top. (Halyards, cleats and winches are on the mast.) Aurora will sail on and on without me because I use our tiller pilot, I will not survive if I fall overboard. When I designed the stanchions I made sure the top line was above the knee. Fortunately our 1963 Islander 32 has 3" bulwarks and the stanchions are installed on top of them so they don't look ridiculously high. I actually like the look of our boat better now that it has railings. I find it more 'robust' looking, more sea-worthy.
Having said that, I agree with all above that you should do what you like, there is no law requiring lifelines.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Shoalcove »

I replaced my stantion bases a couple years ago when I refinished my decks and never considered going without them. I sail with kids and a dog so that was the main concern (as well as my wifes reaction...) but also realized that they serve other uses such as controlling sails as they are lowered and, as Tim mentioned, a handhold. I find that things like boarding ladders and dinghy masts get lashed to stantions quite regularly.
I also remembered racing a 43'er in the 80's when a spinnaker takedown went very badly. I got catapulted 15 feet and landed upside down hanging by my legs from the lifelines. I got yanked aboard and we carried on but it could have been a very different story without the lines. I'm not sure I would have appreciated the sleeker look without them... Best regards, David
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Homer »

You make some good points, David. Grudgingly, I expect mine will go back up in a few months after we have enjoyed the sleek look for a while, but I still won't much trust them. I also have not found the Morris detachable hardware.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Rachel »

I've only sailed a few times on a boat without lifelines, but where I have spent a bunch of time on boats that had lifelines one day, and not the next, was on the hard in a boatyard. Without the lifelines I just didn't have that sense of where the edge was. Everyone is different, I'm sure, but for me, I found that it really helped my spatial awareness to have the lifelines there.

However, I've never sailed on a boat long-term without them, so maybe my sense of space would adapt and it would be fine - I don't know that.

Not that it helps aesthetics at all, but they sure are a handy place to hang something out to dry, and to clip things to (the base loops) :D

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Re: Lifelines

Post by georgefmys »

A clever fabricator should be able to make heavy-duty baseplates that would accept short hex bolts that are quickly removeable depending on set-up [lifelines or no] that fits sailing you'll be doing. Side benefit would be for storage where it's often easier to cover boat well without stanshins poking thru. Have seen one builder [can't remember which] that used threaded studs welded to baseplate, then a cover plate can belightly fastened on top to protect toes when stanchens are off. More on this when I can think of other ways to spell stanscions.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Shoalcove »

Rachel wrote:I've only sailed a few times on a boat without lifelines, but where I have spent a bunch of time on boats that had lifelines one day, and not the next, was on the hard in a boatyard. Without the lifelines I just didn't have that sense of where the edge was. Everyone is different, I'm sure, but for me, I found that it really helped my spatial awareness to have the lifelines there
I agree completely! I found it most disconcerting in the boatyard to have the stantions removed. It just feels weird. BTW, I never actually "trust" my lifelines. They are just one layer of protection, like my harness or a lifejacket. I spent 4 seasons crewing on a 143' schooner in my youth and learned to trust my grip at a time when no one wore a harness. I do now but I teach my kids 'one hand for you-one for the ship' the other stuff is for when that plan fails.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by galleywench »

Your points are well taken; as much as I don't like all the things that lifelines do wrong, I think that the added measure of safety that they give people makes up for their shortcomings (even if they send me head first, at least my kids will stay on board).
Damn, now I am going to have to work on my contortionist poses so I can get them bolted back on. :)
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Re: Lifelines

Post by BALANCE »

Just a thought, if your bulwarks are high, stanchions attached to bulwarks are less intrusive to the toes, eliminate potential leaks to the core- and - for you - get the whole set up a little higher (above your knee). I know of a source for such stanchions if interested.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by galleywench »

BALANCE wrote:Just a thought, if your bulwarks are high, stanchions attached to bulwarks are less intrusive to the toes, eliminate potential leaks to the core- and - for you - get the whole set up a little higher (above your knee). I know of a source for such stanchions if interested.
That sounds interesting, I like the idea of keeping them further outboard to keep my toes happy as well as minimizing holes in the deck. I've never been aboard a Westsail, but I assume they have stanchions mounted this way? Are they mounted along the side of the bulwarks? Do you have any pictures?
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Rachel »

Well I'm not BALANCE, but I do have a bad photo of one style of Westsail stanchion base (it's amazing how many boat photos I was able to take with nary a clear stanchion base shot).

Image

In this case they are attached by their sides to the inside of the (relatively tall) fiberglass bulwark. There are three fasteners: One at the base, and then one on each side a bit further up (so it makes a T shape of fasteners). You can see the after tab that is one side of the "tee," and there is an identical tab on the forward side.

I never knew exactly how they were backed up on the inside of the bulwark, so tried never to count on them. But of course if one installed them oneself, one could be more confident in their installation. And it is nice to have them fastened in such a way that leverage is less (or dealt with better).

The mounting holes still go into the boat (the bulwarks in this case are hollow), so unless your deck stanchions go through core, you're not saving much that way; but I suppose leaks are still less likely, because of the "less leverage" factor, and also no water will sit near the bases since they are not on deck.

These were not easily removable, if that is a concern (not a separate base and leg).

All in all, they worked very well and did not wiggle around.

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Re: Lifelines

Post by Ric in Richmond »

Lifeline article in the current Good Old Boat Magazine.

Doesn't addresshaving NO lifelines but has some ideas about lifelines such as using continuous (no gate) lengths of the same rigging wire on you mast so that you have a spare wire.
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Interesting topic, I thought the same thing

Post by Tom Young »

when I began removing my stanchions for covering the boat acouple years ago. And speaking of stanchions, this old design of bronze stanchions that slide into their bronze bases with a heavy cast dovetail fit, seem just about perfect to me. They're locked with a 1/4" screw at the base but in fact lock tightly without the screw.

The stanchions themselves are nicely shaped for strength with thick trunks that would take alot to break to lighter tops for weight and material reduction. No doubt they're too expensive to build today. I'm told these were built for Concordias but must have been ordered for this Challenger when it was built.

The beauty of removing them in seconds, is such a nice feature.

Looking for a photo of one, this one reminded me of how I use the lifelines underway. They do give you some security. Image
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Yes, much prettier w/o lifelines. If you were accustomed to clipping on to a well designed anchor, then maybe doing without the normal lifelines would be appropriate and adequate for safety. That's since lifelines are pretty normally eschewed for safety. What they're really good for is to give you the mental security and physical point of reference. Try it; recall it: it takes a remarkably small amount of force on your fingertips to inform your body where you are.

'Lifelines' on a building these days are required to resist a 200lb force anywhere and in any direction on the top edge of a 3' high barrier, 200 psf (maybe 100psf; it's a holiday) anywhere in the area below the top edge, and cannot pass a 4" dia ball anywhere through the barrier. (I think I got all that right...). That's so far in excess of a boat's lifelines' capacity. And a boat's lifelines have to resist dynamic loading; a pedestrian on a building very seldom is thrown against a railing by a passing wave.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by mdidriksen »

There are several manufacturers that make bases that are separate from the stanchions. I went with these: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 8&id=23082 and have been happy with them. They seemed to be the burliest of the ones I could find.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Henk »

When I installed the new stanchions I moved them up to the cap rail. No more toe stubbing, wider decks, and higher lifelines above the knee. Each stanchion is through bolted with four 1/4" x 4" machine screws and all welded construction.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Homer »

I love the cap rail mount - so nicely up and out of the way. Given my thin Hinckley toe rail, though, a removable dovetail base might be the ticket. I don't think that would be too hard to fabricate. Thanks for the idea. Beautiful boat, by the way.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by galleywench »

Henk, I like the rail mount, it looks as though the bulwarks on the Islander are about the same dimensions as what I have on my Alberg. The extra 3 or 4 inches might make all the difference for me.
Rachel, thanks for the picture of the Westsail mount, I was searching all the Westsail websites last night hoping to catch a glimpse of one of the mounts but couldn't find any. Those Westsails have some serious bulwarks. Unfortunately, I think the bolt pattern spread would be to big for my boat since my bulwarks are roughly 3-4 inches.
Thanks to everyone for helping me sort out this issue, I still have a long ways to go before I have to make up my mind on this, but I really like the look of the caprail mount on Henk's Islander. If his bulwarks is as sturdy as mine is, I would guess the stanchion itself would bend before you damage the deck or bulwark in any significant way if someone really laid into the lifeline or stanchion.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Yes, that caprail mounting is very attractive; the rest of the boat is no doubt as well.

Most stanchion bases are wider than those on the caprail and most are on fiberglass. The bolt centers are usually farther apart. This means to me that the crushing loads created by the narrow base are greater and the wood is less resistant to crushing than fiberglass. Since this is a pretty and thus desirable arrangement, compensatory engineering should be considered. How about a large, concealed stainless base under the caprail, stainless sleeves up through the wood and the smaller exposed base bolted through the sleeves, the exposed bolts could be tapped into the concealed base? Alternatively, how about a robust, concealed base with a robust sleeve extended up through the caprail - no exposed bolts, just a sealant line around the sleeve - stanchions pinned into the sleeve. Technologically, this is simply the caprail's thickness taller than normal bases. Water and freezing would have to be handled; inconvenient access to the base (for rebedding and inspection, would have to be handled as well.

Why cannot the bolts of any stanchion mounting pass into a glassed in or otherwise 'permanent' backup plate with captured nuts? Surely the worst inconvenience of rebedding is the access to the nuts.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Jason K »

When I repainted the deck of my Triton, I left the stanchions and pulpits off for a while as I preferred the way the boat looked without them. However, when going forward, I felt much less secure in lumpy weather. Not that I rely on the lifelines for support, but I found it having them there made enough of a difference - at least psychologically - to reinstall them.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by boatsnh »

I sailed as a kid on a Cal 25 that had no life lines or Bow pulpit; My dad bought the boat as salvage & the lifelines were pretty well destroyed, so they never made it back on. As everyone has said - the boat looks nicer, but there is no "cue" as to where the deck ends....(where the deck ends....sounds like a kids book title). Sailed that boat for many years with never an issue.

A few years back, my brother removed the lifelines & pulpit from his Cal 30 - he liked the look. I sailed many times on it and never felt that there was something amiss - although not having a bow pulpit is missed by kids who like to hang on to one. My brother liked the look.

Our Dickerson has lifelines - I think about about removing them when I re-bed the bases & glare at the old white covered plastic wires - ugly, But they do provide a visual "cue" as to the edge of the deck. I Guess as we age if they keep us on the boat 1 time might be worth the price of admission - that said, if the boat did not have them I'd not bother to put them on.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Bluenose »

I wonder if modern lifelines are a result of the evolving shape and use of sailboats. On Bolero we don't have them and I have never really felt uncomfortable with that choice. But, when I helped a friend motor his Cape Dory 25D 20 miles home I was sure glad to have them. The Cape Dory with its narrower side decks, smaller foredeck, curved cabin top and the random motion under power completely took away all my feeling of sure footedness.

Both Laura and I routinely walk to the bow on Bolero while she is under sail. Even close hauled with the rail almost buried I feel safe, what with the 100% deck sweeping jib to catch me should I slip. But under sail everything seems more predictable and balanced.

Of course we only daysail and coastal cruise. But in the spring or fall when we are out alone going over the side into the cold Puget Sound could still be a death sentence.

I guess lifelines would be more of a real debate for me if they weren't so darn useless. They seem two low, two weak and no one seems to trust them. It is just hard for me to understand the argument for them when I imagine the loads they will experience if ever used for their intended purpose.

Maybe an aesthetic example of lifelines verses no-lifelines is appropriate.

Cheers, Bill

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Re: Lifelines

Post by Tim »

I think the debate could end easily if someone long ago hadn't called them "life" lines.

They're just handholds for convenience. They work well at that, but their given name is stupid and inaccurate and leads to endless debates of no purpose.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Richincident »

Hey Rachel,

Great picture! Now of course I expect more pictures from you! I donated my old ibook to my daughter and my wife bought me a new macbook (on sale for a great price) to replace it so now the spinning beach ball is not as big a problem.

I am a believer in lifelines, and am replacing the ones on THE INCIDENT this winter. During the sailing season the J-105 I was crewing on jibed with little warning and I shot across the deck and ALMOST off the boat. Hanging onto a stanchion saved our race but was too late to save my knees, which didn't recover until about a month ago. That non-skid can be brutal. I was on my way over the cabin top at the time, but the spin and the rapid heeling (rail buried) made all of us kind of vulnerable.

And like many others, I am out there solo sailing in cold water here in September and October. (Maybe even November next year, but the moorings get picked up). Falling overboard is not an option!

BTW I suspect my stanchions were removed for the first time in 42 years, as one of the pins that fastened the middle port stanchion was set up too close to the teak toerail and I wound up doing a bit of surgery on the rail to drive the pin out.

Thanks to all for this well timed if useless thread--but I found it very interesting, regardless of what you call the darn things.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Homer »

Well said, Tim. I suppose that I can look with a little more favor at my handholds (whenever it is that they go back up) than I was at my lifelines.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Bluenose »

Tim wrote:I think the debate could end easily if someone long ago hadn't called them "life" lines.

They're just handholds for convenience. They work well at that, but their given name is stupid and inaccurate and leads to endless debates of no purpose.
Tim,

Very, very good point. That sure would have ended the debate for me. As far as convenient handholds they still give to much for my liking. I tend to use the boom, shrouds, mast etc as I move forward.

In any event from now on when I read "safety and lifelines" I am going to remember your point and think "convenience and handholds".

Cheers, Bill
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Re: Lifelines

Post by MikeD »

I wouldn't be without them.

Image


In fact, I wish I had doubles. It'd save a few gray hairs.

Image
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Re: Lifelines

Post by galleywench »

MikeD wrote:I wouldn't be without them.

In fact, I wish I had doubles. It'd save a few gray hairs.
Wow, looks like you have your hands full. I think you need more than doubles, With that many little ones onboard, I think I would have them all tied and duct taped to the deck.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Rachel »

Sure, Tim. Just go ahead and distill three pages of rambling into one succinct term ;^)
Last edited by Rachel on Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by MikeD »

galleywench wrote:Wow, looks like you have your hands full. I think you need more than doubles, With that many little ones onboard, I think I would have them all tied and duct taped to the deck.
...only 2 are mine.

:)
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Quetzalsailor »

You could buy the netting sold for that purpose. Or, if you are near a commercial fishing supply house, you could buy fishnet for lots less.

I'm debating whether to send your picture to my wife and her children; they have two grandkids of similar age.
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Re: Lifelines

Post by Richincident »

Oops and one more thing. Racing in PHRF races I am often sitting along with the rest of the crew--everyone but the skipper--on the high side with our feet dangling over the side and a firm grip on the "lifeline." Having the two lines seems absolutely necessary for this kind of sailing, and often enough my crew or myself are leaning on the lines of my Soverel.

For racing and for small children, those lines are totally necessary. Though duct tape and netting might also help with kids.
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