Anchor Locker Drainage

[Triton106]

Hi All,

On my west coast Triton (Blossom, #106) the anchor locker water drains through a limber hole to the area under the v-berth which then drains through another limber hole to the area under the wet locker (starboard side) or the head (port side). From there it goes through another limber hole to the area under the saloon settee and through another limber hole to the cabin floor. Obviously, not the best design. It was not a great situation when the cabin sole is the original fiberglass. Now with the teak and holly verneer I installed a couple of years ago this is becoming a disaster.

I searched around on this forum for an answer and found some limited discussion on this thread (http://www.plasticclassicforum.com/view ... abin+drain). I also discussed this issue with my friend Rob Heggen. He shared with me that on his late model version the area under the sole is not used as a built in water tank (as is the case on early model west coast Tritons). It is used as bilge. So on his boat the PO drilled a hole right in front of the limber hole in the saloon settee bulkhead so that any water come out of the limber hole goes into the bilge.

I expressed that if I can re-route the anchor locker drain another way I would not expect much water from anywhere else. As a result I would not need to drill holes in the cabin sole and be forced to convert my built in water tank into a useless bilge. Tim commented from the other thread:

Limbers make good sense in a lot of cases, but not if they provide a passage for bilge water into supposedly dry storage lockers. Do your best to keep your storage lockers isolated and dry. Water shouldn't get in there on its own; if it does, find out why and fix the problem.

I cannot agree with this statement more. I am also interested in finding out how other people address their interiod drainage issues. In particular how you drain your anchor lockers.

Thank you in advance for your comments/ideas.

[Homer]

I put in a Rule shower sump. It uses little power and the bilge is completely dry (and there are no musty smells). Works great.

[David VanDenburgh]

Seawater from the anchor locker on our Cape Dory 36 used to collect under the v-berth, eventually soaking into the cabin sole. I ended up glassing off the anchor locker bulkhead and installed two drains in a bed of thickened epoxy that connect to a hose. The hose carries the water to the shower sump, where it's pumped overboard. Here's a picture of some of the assembly. In the final installation, the holding tank rests on the plywood bed and the drain hose runs under it and aft to the shower sump.

[Tim]

I don't have any photos of my own boat that show it, apparently, but the chain locker in my Triton drains through a limber at the very bottom of the chainlocker bulkhead. The water enjoys free passage beneath the v-berth, fresh water tank (located beneath the berth), and into the bilge, remaining below the lockers and cabin sole at all times.

The attached photo shows another Triton with a dissected v-berth that shows the general arrangement; the tank does not extend all the way to the bottom of the boat, so water can and does pass beneath it.

What's in the way beneath the v-berth in a west coast Triton that might force your drain water up onto the cabin sole before it can make it to the bilge? Why can't the water flow beneath the sole platform beneath the v portion of the berth? (Not an accusation--I just don't know what might be int he way in your boat, having never seen it or any other WC Triton firsthand.)

[Ric in Richmond]

Good thread. On my alberg it flows from the locker to a small cabinet where the depth sounder is installed and out on to the floor!!!

What were they thinking?

For now I lay the rode on the deck and sit on the chain (about 40 feet) until we finally weigh anchor. Rode is nearly dry when it goes below.

I do think I will rearrange this set up by raising the "floor" and running a drain through the side v berth cabinetry.

[Quetzalsailor]

Our older boats seem to accept the chain locker draining under everything back to a bilge. The NE 38 is that way and additionally, there's a ventilator and a Perko lid to the chain fall. Both will accept water, if you dip the bow that far (doesn't happen all that often!). The ventilator is dandy for ventilation of the entire bilge, and for the rest of the boat if the interior door over the vee berth is left open (not pretty, though).

Newer boats seem to provide that drainage through holes in the side of the boat and use an essentially sealed chain locker. Ventilation of the locker is poorer. For those who do not dry their rode, there's no damp, mud smell in the boat.

Those whose boats are ill drained, or insufficiently provided with a bilge, might well think about drilling a hole to the exterior and better sealing the locker/bulkhead as an alternative to adding hoses.

I've been dumping buckets of sea water on deck for washing down the rode; I intend to add a washdown pump and hose bibb. I normally leave the rode tied down on deck to dry, given enough time. However, I also intend to add an anchor winch; happily the NE38's chain locker is deep enough. Thus, since the rode will be fed below, there will be more water brought into the locker. I see no reason to alter the way it's vented and drained.

[Triton106]

Thanks everyone for your comments/ideas - very helpful.

Tim asked:

What's in the way beneath the v-berth in a west coast Triton that might force your drain water up onto the cabin sole before it can make it to the bilge? Why can't the water flow beneath the sole platform beneath the v portion of the berth?

On early model west coast tritons the area under the v-berth starting from under the "seat" and running all the back to the bottom of the companion way ladder is sealed off with the filberglass sole and used as a built in water tank.

My friend Rob thinks I am better off converting the water tank into a bilge area like everyone else. I am a little reluctant to do that since it is a prime location for water storage. I really like the shower sump idea that David and Homer described. Prior to this posting I already started to think about adding a bulkhead under the sole to effectively partition off a part of the water tank into a bilge area (see diagram below). Since I won't use the front end of the former water tank anymore I can just have the anchor locker drain into this area as Tim described in his response. From there I was thinking of adding a pvc pipe that runs through the water tank (under the saloon sole) as the drainage route to the deep bilge area under the companion way. Or alternatively I could install a sump pump there to pump the water via a pipe that can run under the starboard settee and drain into the deep bilge.



What am I missing in this design?

[Tim]

Is that built-in water tank really anything you'd want to use for actual potable water storage? I thought I have read stories of exposed lead, raw polyester resin, and other horrors in there.

[Rachel]

That's what I was thinking, Tim.

Of course to each their own, but there is no way I would ever drink out of a 40-year-old fiberglass water tank. Of course it might still be handy for doing laundry or bathing or... maybe washing dishes (no... maybe that's to close to drinking out of it).

What about converting it to bilge and then having a stainless (or other material) tank made to fit part/most of the space. Then you'd have potable water, plus anchor drainage, and a shower sump if you wanted it.

Rachel

[Idon84]

I'm getting into this conversation a bit late but I have some experience on this.

I decided to NOT have my chain locker drain anywhere. I will clean the area between anchoring and will keep the rode clean with a wash-down pump in the future. Prior to my rebuild the chain just sat against the hull and drained via a 10+ foot long PVC pipe that was laid before the ballast or the water tank bulkheads were installed. The tube started in the forpeak and terminated just aft of the water tanks.

This picture shows the black tube in that starts in the forpeak. The chain will sit in front of the bulkhead in the picture.


This picture shows the old water tanks that were built into the hull. Down the center you can see the PVC tube which was covered with polyester & fiberglass. Shoes are standing on the ballast forward.


Here I have removed all the old bulkheads for the water tanks,cleaned the hull and installed the small bulkhead aft to keep the new plastic tanks from sliding around. You can see the tube clearly and the old baffle base (note all the black goo from osmosis)


Finally this picture shows everything clean and ready for paint. The tube is still there and I had to build a flat foot for the tanks to sit on.


I had heard a lot about built in water tanks both for and against. After thoroughly going over the existing built in tanks I noticed how much osmosis had taken place over the corse of 20 years, it was gross! On the other had I went to a boat yard at Port Townsend about a month ago and visited a 45' motor ketch that was currently getting it's integrated tanks installed. So even well known boat builders still do it. But over time my vote is for tanks that can be removed, cleaned, inspected, etc.

I know the Triton's bilges are not as deep as mine so space is critical but I wouldn't recommend it after seeing all the black ooze inside of it. Just my 2 cents...

[Triton106]

Tim wrote:

Is that built-in water tank really anything you'd want to use for actual potable water storage? I thought I have read stories of exposed lead, raw polyester resin, and other horrors in there.

I tossed and turned back and forth between "reconditioning" the existing built-in tank and a new custom stainless steel tank. The main reason for the hesitation is, like anything, cost. And secondarily how big a project it will be to rip out the sole (with the nice teak and holly veneer) to install a new tank like Bryon did. As Rachel said, do I really want to use it for drinking? Probablly not but maybe for washing after it is "reconditioned".

After seeing Bryon's pictures (thanks Bryon) I am now more swayed toward a custom tank which as Rachel pointed out has the added benefit of using the rest of the space under the sole as bilge which would eliminate the need for a sump pump. One question I still cannot figure out by myself - if I use the space between the custom tank and the hull as bilge is that going to be "yucky" for the tank even if it does not affect the water inside the tank?

[Idon84]

A good tank should not absorb anything like porous polyester. And the "Yuck" in the bilge is something that I don't want to ever see again. Granted things will happen and things will drip in there that you don't want but regular cleaning and the ability to easily remove the tanks for cleaning were VERY high on my priority list.

My quote for stainless steel tanks was well over $2100. Stainless sitting in a wet bilge will eventually make the tank rust, but there really shouldn't be that much water in the bilge in the first place. I found another company, http://www.triplemplastics.com that build custom plastic tanks for me shipped from the east coast to WA state for about $800 TOTAL. They were excellent to work with and provide a lifetime guarantee against workmanship, granted bashing around in a boat isn't covered but that is why you strap it down good.

Here is a thread that I started a while ago on water my tanks
http://plasticclassicforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

And some pictures of the process.
I rough measured first. Then built tanks out of cardboard to make sure they fit...


When the card board fit well I drew up the dimensions (measure many times just to make sure, of course) then sent the dimensions to Tripple M.



And the final product...

[Tim]

I'm not sure one has the luxury in a small boat such as a Triton to have a whole nasty tank dedicated to "washing" water, in addition to a "real" fresh water tank elsewhere. Too many things are competing for too little space. But hoping to use a tank that has anecdotal and documented information as to its internal content (i.e. lead, polyester, etc) for your water supply is just penny wise and pound foolish. You need good tankage, period, if you're going to actually use the boat for cruising.

If you don't want to interrupt your cabin sole, maybe you ought to look into alternative locations for a new water tank(s), and perhaps find a way to work around the old tank in the bilge without touching it (or using it either). There's got to be a way to route drainage from the forward cabin to the main bilge sump; I don't know what it might be in your boat, but there is surely a way, even if it's not immediately obvious or remotely direct.

If you want welded custom polyethylene tanks, I have to join the praise found just above and elsewhere on this forum for Triple M Plastics in West Kennebunk, ME (where Bryon got his tanks, and from where I just ordered two custom tanks). Outstanding, personal service and fair prices.

[Triton106]

Tim said:

But hoping to use a tank that has anecdotal and documented information as to its internal content (i.e. lead, polyester, etc) for your water supply is just penny wise and pound foolish.

Tim, this will not be the first time I am accused of being penny wise and pound foulish. I think I ought to change my middle name ;-) BTW, my wife would definite agree with you.

Bryon, thank you very much for the details of the photo, the drawings, and recommendation on the vendor. I did follow your thread when you were doing the bilge tank but when I saw the $$$ I had cold feet. How does one justify paying $6,000 for the boat and $1,000 for a water tank? I guess I ought to follow Tim's mentra "what the boat needs the boat gets."

[Triton106]

My apologies to Tim, it is "What the boat WANTS, the boat gets."

[Homer]

My apologies to Tim, it is "What the boat WANTS, the boat gets."

Great. Thanks. Now I have this mantra stuck in my head. This is clearly the road to ruin.

[Rachel]

My apologies to Tim, it is "What the boat WANTS, the boat gets."

Great. Thanks. Now I have this mantra stuck in my head. This is clearly the road to ruin.

But you'll be in good company :)

Bryon, thanks for the follow-up on your Triple M tanks (nice sketches, too).

Rachel

[Quetzalsailor]

Alternatives to $1k for a new tank include using a $100. bladder lying inside the old tank. I used one for years in the Morgan 27. I laid it on a sheet of Enkadrain to reduce/prevent chafe and to allow the hull to be dry underneath. I scrubbed out the integral fiberglass water tank on Quetzal, resealed the lid, and use it for potable water. Happily, there's a huge lid which gives fair access to the interior of the tank. I treat the water with Aquabon.

[Idon84]

Those bladders are a great idea too! My approach to things normally would not approve of a bladder but I've seen several of these bags on other boats and they are well constructed and can take much more abuse than you would think they could.

I'm looking at supplementing my tankage with a bladder that will fit in the bilge under the engine as well.

And the boat defiantly gets what it wants...

[bcooke]

How does one justify paying $6,000 for the boat and $1,000 for a water tank?

Because the boat is not really a $6000 boat. It may be worth $6000 because it is all tired and worn out but the new parts going into it don't know that. The parts and maintenance expenses are still based on the new price of the boat. In the same way a replacement alternator in my $500 truck costs about $100. That doesn't make the alternator expensive. It just means the truck is cheap because it is on death's doorstep and will probably require over a thousand individual $100 purchases to bring it back to a 'like new' condition.

A Triton -and many other of the ~30 foot plastic classics- if made today would fetch something over $100k most likely. What you are really maintaining is a $100k boat so a grand for a water tank is really quite reasonable. Spending $5k on annual routine maintenance isn't extraodinary. It is just 5% of the initial cost which is a pretty reasonable standard for computing normal maintenance costs.

30 foot cruising boats are expensive luxury items. Period. You either pay the money up front at a new boat dealership or you pay for it a thousand times over at the parts desk.

Or you can just be happy with a $6000 junker and enjoy it for what it is.

[bcooke]

My custom 22 gallon stainless water tank that I had made for my bilge cost me around $500 so it pays to shop around. Not that plastic is a bad option. Its fine. I am just saying custom stainless is not necessarily much more expensive than custom plastic.

[Triton106]

Britton, it's about time you chimed in. You have no idea how many times I checked out your website for your bilge tank and bow tank. I don't know how you got your vendor to make those stainless tanks for $500 each. Maybe that is the difference between Maine and SF Bay Area or I just have not shoped around enough. Here the welders charge $100 an hour!

Does the bilge drain around your tank? Do you get any bilge yucks all over your tank? How do you keep it clean?

Tim just posted an attractive idea on the Circe project log (see picture below). It is exactly what I was thinking except I was thinking of using PVC pipe rather than the fiberglass pipe. Tim, why do you choose fiberglass over PVC?

[Tim]

This is getting off track, but it really pays to take a methodical approach to boat reconfiguration. It helps avoid awkward situations where one decision is compromised by something you may have already done. Even with best efforts, sometimes things end up going in the wrong order, but one has to do one's best to avoid what will clearly be problematic situations.

It seems to me that tankage is an important thing to consider when one has big plans for the boat. Given what you suggest, in other postings on this forum, your plans for the boat are, I don't see that you have any option but to ensure adequate, clean, and effective tankage--water tankage will be crucial. It's well known how unacceptable the stock tanks are, particularly in the Aeromarine boats (and the Pearson boats, while avoiding the exposed lead issues, don't have tanks worth writing home about either). The only problem is that you've done certain things that now make it more difficult to properly address the tankage.

Unfortunately, the nature of boats is such that tankage has to be one of the first things addressed. It's not the most satisfying, or fun, but since tanks are large and need to be built in, they have to be among the first purchases and installations. Yes, tanks are rather expensive. You do have options (plastic vs. stainless). Both make acceptable water tanks, though stainless is the "cleanest" in terms of water taste. It's not really any more expensive to have custom tankage made versus using a so-called "stock" tank, but it doesn't hurt to look over the hundreds of stock tank designs available to see if something meets your needs and fits where you want it to.

The $6000/$1000 ratio argument holds no water (unlike new water tanks). Initial cost of the boat is irrelevant in this sort of situation. One must justify expenditures based on one's plans for the boat, and what one wants her to be when all is said and done. That makes it all worthwhile, not to mention necessary in any relatively significant project; forget that many of the parts you may be considering cost 10%, 20%, or 50% of your initial boat cost, or that few of them truly add to the value of your boat in the end. It's how it is, and one doesn't get something for nothing. If you're still hesitant to make large purchases when required for this boat, perhaps you have to consider if it's the right boat for what you want to do.

Further, I'd suggest that if your bilge has a significant "yuck" factor to the point that you're worrying about bilge tanks, that you make the effort to thoroughly clean, paint, and maintain it. A comfortable, clean, sweet-smelling, well-found, good boat starts in the depths of the bilge, and it matters. One can tell more about a boat from the bilge alone than from anything else. And if you have too much water in the bilge all the time, contributing to the "yuck" factor, figure out where it's coming from and fix the problem--because it shouldn't be there.

[bcooke]

Does the bilge drain around your tank? Do you get any bilge yucks all over your tank? How do you keep it clean?

Yes, the bilge drains around the tank. You can't really see it in the picture but the tank sits just aft of the ballast pig. At the end of the pig there is a lip and the tank is sitting just behind that. The tank actually sits on a 3 inch wide by 1 inch tall piece of oak encapsulated in cloth tabbing with some foam on top. Bilge water can drain down each side under the tank. The clearance along the sides of the tanks varies because the sides are flat while the hull is curved but there is a minimum of one inch around the sides of the tank as well.


The late model EC Tritons like mine have a different bilge shape from Tim's boat too. From the ballast pig, the bilge continues to slope down to a point under the engine so any water drains to the furthest aft point. That also means the depths of my bilge are beyond reachable distance for anyone short of a long armed chimp.

For the most part my bilge stays dry so there are no 'yucks'. Sanding dust is the only thing that dirties up my bilge. Due to ongoing projects I sometimes have rainwater accumulate in the bilge which will sometimes fill up the first few inches of bilge and get the very bottom of the tank wet. Out of the water I have a bilge drain which prevents the bilge water from getting too high. In the water I have a bilge pump located lower than the tank in the aft end of the bilge which keeps the bilge water level lower than the tank.

On the tank itself is an eight inch opening for getting inside and cleaning. Being as the boat project is ongoing I haven't hooked up the tank so I haven't needed to clean it yet. I am sure there is some sanding dust that has made its way inside. Because it is dark inside and my inlet piping is not translucent I don't really have to worry about algae growth.

Like Tim said, tanks are important. And they are also a nuisance to deal with if you have any other interior installed in the boat. That is why I was forced to deal with my tankage issues so early in the project. I don't need tanks yet but they have to be one of the first things to go in.


I don't know why welding shops vary so widely in price. I am actually in expensive Massachusetts, not Maine, so I wouldn't expect any deals here. I did go to a shop that was recommended to me by several local fishermen. Getting away from yacht services and looking for industrial sources has helped a lot in my project. Come to think of it, $100 an hour sounds about right. I had a total of three tanks made and it took them about a day and a half to do them all. I had drawings and plywood mockups for them to work with.

Britton, it's about time you chimed in. You have no idea how many times I checked out your website for your bilge tank and bow tank

I am only an email away ;-)

[Triton106]

Thanks Tim, Britton for taking the time to show me the way. It's much appreciated. You helped put an end to my internal debate with the water tank/bilge solution which has been driving me crazy. What the boat wants the boat gets! Stainless steel tank it will be. Hopefully the winter season and the lingering economic picture will drive the price of the stainless steel tank down somewhat. I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks for everyone who contributed to this discussion!

[JohnS]

On my Islander 32, as an alternative to having the anchor rhode locker drain into the bilge, I'm considering sealing the bottom of the locker and putting in a drain through the hull at the bottom of the locker so that it drains overboard. Have others done this? I've seen it on modern boats, that had locker access through a hatch on deck. On the Islander 32, there's a wood door hinged at the top to access the locker from the v-berth. If too much water enters while sailing, I might close it off and put in a round access port. The only reason I can forsee for needing access would be to untangle or swap out the rhode, so I would imagine I wouldn't need a huge opening.

Thoughts?

[Rachel]

I sailed on a Baba 30 that had a draining anchor locker via a hose and seacock below the waterline. There was no deck-accessed anchor locker, but simply a deck pipe leading from a manual windlass down into the locker (which was divided fore-and-aft by a "septum" of sorts to keep two rodes separated - however both sides drained via the same hose).

Although the seacock was beneath the waterline, I would suppose that the bottom of the anchor locker would have to be above the water line -- I didn't check that out, but I can't see how it could be below.

One feature I really liked on that boat (although you need a certain size boat to accommodate it) was a sunken foredeck section up at the bow. This gave a bit more of a secure feeling when working up there, and, even better, kept anchor goo from traveling the sidedecks on its way back to scuppers. You could also leave some of the rode piled there for awhile with a certain amount of security.

I can't recall exactly how that sunken foredeck section drained, but it was original Ta-Shing, so it could always be looked up somehow.

It's nice to have the rode's weight sitting down closer to the foot of the mast, but then a self-draining locker is so darned tidy.

Rachel

[Hulukupu]

Regarding sealing off the anchor locker, I once visited a Pearson Triton where the owner had created a watertight bulkhead using a Bomar hatch to provide access. It was one of two such bulkheads forward of the mast.

If you visit James Baldwin's site (www.atomvoyages.com) you'll find a discussion of collision bulkheads. I think it makes a lot of sense if you are voyaging offshore.

For coastal cruising, I agree with Rachel- the limber drain is tidy.

[Rachel]

For coastal cruising, I agree with Rachel- the limber drain is tidy.

Just to be clear, I don't think I mentioned a limber drain (?)

Unless I'm going starkers. It's possible.

[Hulukupu]

No, you're not going starkers.
I meant the limber hole described by Tim, above, that drains directly under the v-berth, water tank and into the bilge- the most direct route. My Triton is like that and it is easy to flush and clean.
David

[Rachel]

Whew! (Although you are welcome to agree with me anytime ;)

[John Stone]

Hi Everybody,
I am in the middle of a major restoration/refit of my Cape Dory 36. I have been looking at the same issue--how to drain water from the anchor locker so it does not collect inside the boat. I want to avoid a design that allows any outside water (or water of any kind for that matter) to migrate into the bilge. Allowing water to flow into the bilge supports the growth of mildew/bacteria and promotes that stinky smell so common inside a boat. Except for water tanks--water should stay on the outside of the boat. What to do?

I have an old V Berth plastic water tank that I will cut the top off and secure it in the bow anchor-rode area. Its purpose will be to "catch" the 5/16 inch chain rode and any water or yuck that comes in with the chain. I'll plumb the bottom and lead it back via PVC pipe to a gray water tank. The gray water tank is plumbed to a switch valve and tied into a manual bilge pump. The shower and ice box will also be plumped to the grey water tank. The gray water tank is vented outside the boat. I'll put some clean outs in the piping so I can clean the plumbing as necessary.

John

[Hirilondë]

I want to avoid a design that allows any outside water (or water of any kind for that matter) to migrate into the bilge. Allowing water to flow into the bilge supports the growth of mildew/bacteria and promotes that stinky smell so common inside a boat. Except for water tanks--water should stay on the outside of the boat.

This is great in theory, but I don't know any boat that never has water in the bilge. When I clean the interior of my boat the water drains into the bilge. I find that if you flush the bilge out every now and again there is no such growth or smell. Having the chain locker drain into the grey water tank is a clever idea though. I can't believe it will keep your bilge dry however.

[John Stone]

Dave,
Sure. Some water will find its way in there no doubt . . . but what I think we should try to avoid is designing/building water flow into the bilge as a matter of course. There are better ways. I also agree that we need to make it easy to clean our bilge too 'cause stuff is just going to get in there--sand, food crumbs, and other detritus.

Regards,
John Stone
Cape Dory 36 Far Reach
www.farreachvoyages.com

[Hirilondë]

I guess we have to agree to disagree John. My chain locker drains to the bilge. There is no system to maintain. Just pump out the bilge when needed, which I check on a regular basis anyway. When it is time to clean the interior of the boat I just rinse everything into the bilge after cleaning and pump it out. I like simplicity.

[John Stone]

Dave,
Knowing what you like is half the battle. Glad it works for you.

Regards,
John