Motor for a purist?

[redstripesailor]

I'm the new owner of Triton #175, I just introduced myself over in the picture forum. My boat doesn't have an engine in any way shape or form and the prop aperture was glassed over by the previous owner. I actually prefer the challenge of sailing engineless but as my boat is currently moored in Woods Hole I've discovered that this purist attitude is impractical and even a little dangerous. Even if you time your entrance to WH at slack water you still have to deal with a 3 knot cross current ripping through Vineyard sound, the combination of currents make it very hard to get into Great Harbor on a light air day.

I've started pondering the addition of a little auxiliary power. Obviously an internal is out of the question and I really do not want to mess with an outboard. I don't want to mess with the fuel, the maintenance, it's weight or it's appearance on my transom. I was thinking about getting a Torqeedo 801 http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/products/travel.html It's light enough that I can move it around, stow it or use it on my tender no problem. No fuel, I'll just pop the battery in my back pack take it home and charge it. No maintenance and no winterizing. It will only see use on days where there is no wind and thus it's usually pretty calm. And it will only be used to get in and out of the channel and harbor there, usually at slack water or as close to it as possible. I was even thinking about putting it on my tender, then putting the tender on the Triton's hip to serve as a yawl boat of sorts when needed. Is this crazy?

I guess what I'm asking is if you guys think 68lbs of thrust is going to be enough for my purposes?

[Bluenose]

....I actually prefer the challenge of sailing engineless but as my boat is currently moored in Woods Hole I've discovered that this purist attitude is impractical and even a little dangerous. Even if you time your entrance to WH at slack water you still have to deal with a 3 knot cross current ripping through Vineyard sound, the combination of currents make it very hard to get into Great Harbor on a light air day.

There really isn't anything "purist" about an activity, sailing, that has been practiced for over 4000 years. It is just sailing. Everyone needs to make choices within their own comfort level and time constraints. My only concern with your electric propulsion idea is that it might not be a panacea of speed to overcome strong currents. It isn't uncommon in our area to have locations of strong currents that are too close to the hull speed of a small boat for comfort. The size of the engine becomes less important than the time of day.

You might also google "trolling motor sailboat". This seems to be a topic people love to dive into.

From the Trailer Sailor Forum
http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/art ... es/read/23

There was also a neat website where the owner was searching for the "The Comfortable Pocket Yacht". He has a page or two discussing trolling motors and even a page to try and calculate the required thrust. May be a place to look as well.

http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/fores ... lator.html

When I quickly plugged Triton numbers into his calculator, it is on the Internet so it must be right, it show a speed of 2 1/2 kts.

Actually the more I read about this, the less it looks it would meat your needs. Torqeedo shows some examples on their range page. http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/products/ ... range.html

The closest they have to a Triton is a Dragon. For the 30 ft 3,750 lb Dragon the speed, range and run time are 3.7 kts, 1.6 NM and 26 minutes. The Dragon and the Triton have slight different underwater profiles so I would worry that this little packable trolling motor might not be up to a 3 kt current in a Triton.

I will be curious to here your and anyone else's experiences. I am an electric car enthusiast and am hopeful that this technology will catch on in boats. I would enjoy being able to chat with passers by without having to shout over the noise of their engines.

Cheers, Bill

[Oscar]

as my boat is currently moored in Woods Hole I've discovered that this purist attitude is impractical and even a little dangerous. Even if you time your entrance to WH at slack water you still have to deal with a 3 knot cross current ripping through Vineyard sound, the combination of currents make it very hard to get into Great Harbor on a light air day

Took a 36 footer into Eel Pond once... on a very breezy day. Indeed, with no power you better know the water really well, and be able to find and ride appropriate eddies and currents. Also, you may be limited as to when you can get in or out.

Not having anything in there, and not needing it for hours of motoring I'd say you're the perfect candidate for electric. It would not be seen from the outside, and be whisper quiet. Would add some weight....rough guess 2-300 pounds. You could either Google "Sterling Motors" and go with a prop shaft through the old hole, or, personally I like these, and they are easy to install: http://www.re-e-power.com/E-Pods.html

[Tim]

FWIW, a Dragon is vastly different than a Triton, and only half (or less) the weight. Given that, and given the quoted information above, it doesn't seem like the Torqueedo would be a good choice at all. Of course this is all just data on some website somewhere and not the real world, but you have to start somewhere I guess.

The engine/no engine/something in decision between is purely a choice for the individual; no one choice is the correct one, or the "best" one. However, as with most things, I say that whatever route you chose, do it completely and do it right.

To me, that means that if you want any sort of mechanical propulsion at all, it only makes sense for it to truly be up to the job--powerful and convenient enough to be worth its pitfalls. There's just no sense in something make-do that won't even really do what you need it to do. I don't see the point in an engine or motor that is unreliable or otherwise unsuitable for the task you have chosen it for. That said, you have options if you choose some sort of mechanical propulsion. But whatever it is needs to work for you, not for some unreachable ideal.

If simplicity were important enough, I think I'd first look for a mooring situation for my boat that allowed this choice to be practical and enjoyable. Maybe you're fine where you are, but it sounds to me like the challenging place you are moored may have an impact on your sailing flexibility going forward, if your true ability to navigate the area is reliant at least in part on choosing the appropriate wind/current situation. Maybe you have the time and flexibility available to allow this to work for you. But if not, it'll probably end up being limiting at some point. Wood's Hole is well known for its strong currents, and you can work around them of course, but maybe not always when you want to.

Just more grist for the mill as you consider the way forward.

[redstripesailor]

Well after really looking at the numbers you guys provided, I agree that the Torqeedo motor isn't going to be enough. I went ahead and looked at several battery powered motors including one that supposedly fits perfectly into the A4's old spot. I've come to the conclusion that none of them will work for me. The expense and weight necessary to compile a battery bank with enough juice to propel my Triton with any speed over any distance really isn't worth it. And I would have no practical means of recharging such a set up out on my mooring.

I also want nothing to do with an outboard hanging off my stern. I am happy to remain engineless. I have no qualms about scheduling my sailing around the tides. I've been doing it for years in other places and it never bothered me. I find the challenge associated with such sailing very attractive. I understand the dangers involved in a place with such strong currents as Woods Hole, but I also understand that with proper seamanship, planning, patience and preparation these dangers can be largely mitigated. I would indeed prefer a mooring in a location that didn't share this extreme current issue, but I'm going to work with what I've got. And the fact that I've got a free mooring thanks to my boss is a real incentive to stay put.

Rather than designing and maintaining a power plant of some sort I'm going to put my energy into keeping my boat trim, light, tuned and my bottom smooth. And I'm going to put the money that I would spend on a motor into some very large and efficient light air sails. I'll keep my sail boat a sailboat and I'll take both the risks and the rewards associated there with.

I appreciate your input here. I've had to ask myself some heard questions and do some real soul searching during this thought process. I have people telling me I'm crazy on a daily basis, maybe they're right. But I think this is the best solution for me at this juncture.

[Case]

I have one possible solution that might work. Not sure if it will work well on a Triton (Triton may be too big for this to work) but something to think about...

Look in the Spartan Marine catalog, look for the outboard motor mount.

Yes, I know that you did mention that you don't want an outboard but this solution allows you to use an outboard when needed, When not needed, everything can be removed and hidden. Only signs would be bronze mounts on the deck which would not be overly ugly.

This solution would be strictly for those days when there's zero wind. Use it with an ultra long shaft outboard. A few 4 or 6 HP outboards are available with 25" shafts, most are older Evinrude or Johnson outboards. 4 stroke outboards are just too heavy for this type of use.

Just a thought.

- Case

[Hirilondë]

I used to own a 1937 25 foot double ender. I had to make my own removable outboard bracket that accomplished the same thing as that bronze one Case linked. If you can find a storage spot for the outboard and the bracket, I used my lazarette, it is a viable option. It still doesn't look good while you are using it, but you can always choose not to unless really needed. Mine rarely came out of the lazarette, but when it meant I could get home in time for a full night's sleep before work the next day, I dealt with the ugly thing hanging over the stern. Of course I wouldn't row in from my mooring until it was hidden away again.

[redstripesailor]

I actually considered the same setup with the Spartan mount and the Torqeedo or a small outboard. I think it would indeed work on a calm day with little to no current. It wouldn't have the power to deal with the currents in WH so it would be kind of a convenience thing rather than a safety one. And as much as I love convenience.... for the money I could get that loose footed, fully battened main or that huge headsail I've been dreaming about. Definitely food for fodder.

[Bluenose]

Freeman,

Good on ya. I will enjoy hearing about your adventures.

I thought that Tim's view on the whole engine / engineless debate was perhaps the best that I have ever heard. I think he his spot on with his comment "I say that whatever route you chose, do it completely and do it right".

It sounds like you are on the right track thinking about spending your proposed engine money on sails. My experience is in an entirely different style of boat than the Triton (more like the Dragon actually) but if current is the enemy then boat speed is your ally. More specifically the ability to get to hull speed in as wide a variety of wind conditions as possible.

From my experience I would say that your standard, everyday SA/D ratio should be between 18 & 24 (the higher the better). More sail area might be needed for lighter condition and downwind sailing. But this would get you sailing in most conditions and provide some insurance should the weather and currents join forces to thwart your efforts.

If it were me, I would steal very heavily from the Triton resources on this board, the Triton Atom website and the Pardey's to find a way to substantially increase the standard sail area of a stock Triton.

Best of luck and I hope you keep us posted.

Cheers, Bill

[redstripesailor]

Thanks Bill!

On the point of more sail area: I actually sketched out a slight rig alteration on my boat a few weeks ago only to find my efforts similarly reproduced here (only years earlier) and on the Triton Soubrette. In short the idea is to affix a bowsprit similar to those found on current race boats to fly gennakers, screachers, code zeros and the like. To this I would attach a continuous line furling system that could be hoisted into place with a halyard running to the masthead. In winds below 13kts or so I could set a very large and light headsail here maximizing every inch of mast height I could. The code zero furling unit would also allow me to have a loose luff on the headsail, allowing it to have much more shape off the wind than a conventional furling unit. I would like to get the sail cut so that will also be effective reaching. In heavier air I would lower the whole unit, run in the bowsprit and use my current 7/8 hank on set up. I think this set up would give me the light air performance I am looking for without altering the look of the boat or complicating things with a new pulpit set up and permanent bobstay with all it's associated headaches. I know it's not classic, but it just might work!

Obviously this is still in the earliest of brainstorming stages, but I am very interested in dramatically increasing the sail area of my boat and I think this may be the best way to do it. I plan to sail my boat hard this summer and fall, get the kinks worked out. Then save up my money and finalize my plans for "the mother of all headsails" over the winter. Build it in the spring and have it ready for a shakedown by May of next year.

What do y'all think?

[Bluenose]

Freeman,

Well I am pretty sure the flood gate of ideas is about to open big time. I have talked to Tim about this type of setup a number of times and it seems to have a lot of merit. I even have a couple of sail quotes in my inbox for a code zero. For your situation, and mine for that matter, I can see a couple of concerns.

First the code zero is primarily a reaching sail for fast boats. I think for a boat that needed extra canvas for light air upwind sailing they could work. But having them on a roller furler in front of the headstay means no short tacking up a narrow channel against the current. Precisely where you might, I was going to say always, need them. In addition, the fix furler, and the typical shape of a code zero, would prevent the code zero from rotating to windward for off the wind work like some asymmetrical can do. I really wanted a one sail fits all and I finally decided that the code zero wasn't it.

For me, the perfect setup is a high SA/D ratio with the working (non-overlapping) sails only. Then you really only need light air sails for off the wind work. For a Triton this would probably require extensive reworking of the rig and I am definitely out of my league there.

Cheers, Bill

[Hirilondë]

On boats designed to use a Code 0 they are used for to the wind angles of app. 80 -125 degrees. They aren't tacked, but gybed, but seldom do you go from a reach on one side to the same on the other in a race. They are used mostly for race legs that put the boat in that specific to the wind range. They don't roller furl. They only attach at the tack and peak. They are so baggy they would create a sloppy roll if you did try some method to do so.

Boat speed off the wind could be increased with an asymmetrical spinnaker. But a significant boat speed increase to weather on a Triton I believe you will find is impossible. It would certainly require a serious rig revamp like Bill has said already, and I doubt even that would increase it much.

When you buy an old design you buy the beauty and the limitations. You own a heavy displacement, full keel, high wetted surface, stable, seaworthy boat. If you want to defy the wind and currents get a Moth

[barrybrown]

I agree that there are benefits to sailing engineless, no doubt Woods Hole is tricky. On my last Triton before I switched to diesel I had a very unreliable Atomic-4, to counter this I rigged a quick deploy anchor attached to the bow cleat with the line run aft, outboard of everything, with a length of chain and rode coiled on the aft deck and the anchor hung on the stern rail. This allowed me to deploy an anchor with about 50' of rode in just seconds from the cockpit. Cheap insurance if engineless.
Barry

[Bluenose]

Freeman,

I was thinking about this topic the last couple of days and I think that there are two primary challenges of sailing without an engine. Low wind and high wind (I will ignore the cases where people motor on seemly perfect sailing days). In my experience these are both equally interesting challenges. By setting up a sailboat so your definition of low wind goes down, you also lower the threshold of what high wind means. I experienced this pretty clearly on my last two days out.

On Friday the wind was pretty nice mostly but tapered off as I headed south. I would like to go further a field so my thoughts turned to asymmetric and downwind spinnakers. Something that would raise my SA/D into the 30s to 40s. Something that would ensure that if there was any wind at all I could make headway during a crossing of the shipping lanes in the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

I was still thinking along these lines yesterday but the forecast was 15 kt winds and a small craft advisory for 6 pm with winds 15 to 25 kts. As you can probably imagine, It was glorious sailing. It was just a short afternoon sail and I didn't really need a reef until about 4 pm when I decided to come in. Well then, I really needed to reef. My thoughts instantly changed from big large headsails to double reefs and storm jibs. My return to the bay was quick and uneventful, but even with one reef Bolero's SA/D ratio is 18. With two she drops to 15 and currently the smallest amount of sail I can put up is a double reefed main by itself (something I want to experiment with)

Your situation may be different unless you modify your rig, but I think the challenge is finding a way to set up your sail plan in such a way that you can have both high and low wind options during times when the motor might have been carrying the load.

Just thinking out loud.

Cheers, Bill

[redstripesailor]

I know I own a heavy displacement, full keeled boat and I don't expect her to sail like a maxi racer. I simply want to find a way to reach my hull speed in lighter winds. If the setup I suggested isn't a good one for my purposes I'd appreciate any and all suggestions as to a better alternative.

Bill, I'm not too worried about heavy wind as I'm pretty confident in my ability to shorten sail and my boat's ability to take it. I'm more worried about spreading enough canvas on those light wind days. I want to set my boat up so that any sail area added for light wind sailing can be replaced by smaller, stouter sails when the wind picks up.

[Mark F]

The subject line of this thread caught my attention, I've got one of those A4 replacement drop in electric inboards. It's a wonderful thing for my Ericson 27 and for my purposes I wouldn't use anything else.

Anyway you segued into something I have done on an Ericson 23 and now on my E27, a furling asymmetric. It works great. You can buy off the shelf setups (sprit, furler) or with a little imagination rig up your own.

On my E23 I used a single line furler because the sail was small enough. The sprit on that setup was I think a 2" aluminum tube and extended more than 3'. I ended up with a bobstay because it seemed to be a bit too flexible.

On the E27 I am using a continuous line furler because of the larger sail (more spinning required). I made a sprit out of a used 3" spinnaker pole and a projection of 3'. With both setups I run the sheets inboard of the luff of the sail (much shorter sheets). I have had no problem tacking or jibing. The asymmetrical on the E27 was purpose made by Santa Cruz Sails to account for the furling. Basically a softer narrower head.

I like having the asymmetric available at any time and end up using it way more than I should :-).

[Chris Campbell]

Do you have any pictures you can share of either installation, in use, furled, and taken down?

[Bluenose]

I'll second the request for pictures.

Also, what effective wind ranges do you think your setup work well in? And no problem tacking between your 3 foot sprit and headstay? Sound pretty nice.

I would love to hear more about your experiences with this setup.

Bill

[Mark F]

I just posted a response with photos and it disappeared, oh well. Here are the photos I'll explain later.

[Mark F]

This is a photo of the spinnaker deployed on the bowsprit before I had the furling setup.

[Chris Campbell]

Very slick!

[Zach]

Mark,

Cool setup!

Any information on that stem head fitting to hold the sprit? I like the looks of that.

Zach

[Rich P]

Hey thats fantastic!
Now you just need a bigger gennaker, something that comes all the way back to the quarter! :)