Fixed Windows v Opening Ports

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mdidriksen
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Fixed Windows v Opening Ports

Post by mdidriksen »

Okay, longtime lurker – first real question. Sorry in advance for the length.

I recently purchased a 1969 Sparkman and Stephens 34 which is currently undergoing a bit of a re-fit. Problem is, I’ve not had the chance to spend any significant time on her (closing was mid-October) and the boat is 3 hours away from me. So I’m struggling a bit with some decisions I am facing, one of which I’d like to get your thoughts on.

The boat has a stepped coach roof (similar to a Triton) and has 5 ports on each side of the cabin – 2 in the forepeak, 2 slightly aft of that (one in the head and one in a hanging locker), and then 3 pairs in the main salon (2 forward and then 2 each on each side of the higher portion of the coach roof). The problem is that the 4 opening ports in the higher portion of the coach roof are cheap looking plastic portlights that (i) don’t match the other 6 ports (which are nice old Spartan bronze ports) and (ii) are very long while being only 5 inches high or so. As a result, besides the non-matching issue, the boat looks like it is squinting all the time. I’m determined to change this, and in fact these ports have now been removed.

What I want is something that is significantly higher than what had been in there – perhaps 8 to 10 inches in height. This would fit much more appropriately into the space of the stepped up coach roof. Unfortunately, Spartan does not make anything like that (incidentally, Spartan appears to still be manufacturing the exact same ports that went into this boat in 1969). So my choices seem to be either (i) buy a different portlight, in which case I think I’m going to run into issues with the ports not matching (and it would seem a waste to replace the 6 Spartans that I like in order to match the 4 aft ports) or (ii) put in custom windows that don’t open.

So, my questions are as follows:

1. How important is it to have opening ports in this location for ventilation purposes? The standard design of this boat (the U.K. version) had fixed windows in this location, similar to a Triton (mine is not “standard” in that while it was built in the U.K. it was outfitted in the U.S.). The main hatch is right there, so there is ventilation from that and the two ports farthest forward in the main salon (i.e., the middle port on each side) are opening portlights. That being said, for some reason I’m worried about not having opening ports in the stepped up portion of the coach roof. I grew up sailing on a boat that had an opening port at the galley, and it was always nice to have fresh air there when the boat was rolling, and this is where the galley is. However, the boat is small enough that I’m not sure it matters – reality is that this will be a daysailor or weekender much more than a long-term cruiser. Any thoughts on this?

2. If I go with fixed windows, will that be any cheaper than a pre-manufactured portlight? More expensive? Is there any chance of matching them up somehow with the old bronze Spartans? FWIW, I think some glass work is inevitable.

Thanks in advance!

MD
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Post by Rachel »

Edited to say: Geez, where are my manners? Welcome to the forum! And nice boat! Got any photos? :)

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I'll toss in an opinion here:

I don't think it's that important (that is, for me it wasn't) to have opening ports in the saloon. I cruised in the tropics (hot!) on a boat that did have opening ports, but half the time we didn't even open them (because we were on and off the boat, and that would have meant opening/re-dogging/opening/re-dogging, etc.). That's not to say we never opened them, but it wasn't a necessity.

Now what would have made us scream and kill is if someone had taken away our forehatch and windscoop. That is what, for us, brought the boat "to life," and meant the difference between stuffy and comfortable (that and a couple of fans over our bunks for direct breeze at night).

One note is that we were usually at anchor, so that meant our bow was pointed into the wind most of the time, which makes the scoop very effective. We did occasionally end up a bit sideways to the wind (current effect), and then we would tie the wind scoop a bit askew, but it was not quite as good. So that might be a consideration if you are often at a dock.

One thought for the galley would be a port on the after bulkhead, facing the cockpit (assuming the galley is aft). That would be one you could leave open much more often, and it would not have to match the rest quite as closely, aesthetically speaking. Of course it might not get quite as much air under a dodger.

So, to sum up, I think opening ports are nice, but if you are able to rig up a windscoop effectively, it can provide a huge amount of air flow through the boat, and you might not miss them as much as you'd think.

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Post by Tim »

Pictures would be very helpful, but in general it's pretty typical to see boats with stepped cabin trunks that have differently sized and shaped ports in the after, raised portion than in the lower, forward portion.

With this in mind, it seems likely that you might be able to locate new ports for the aft section that would be complementary with the existing ones forward, though they would not match exactly. But it's not a question of exactly matching--more that the two styles work together. Clearly, what you removed did not.

Opening ports are nice and all, but if you spend your time on the boat at a mooring or anchor (where the bow swings into the wind and the forward hatch does most of the ventilation), I think they're a lot less important than if you're dockside (where you might have a cross breeze and require opening ports, since the forward hatch is less useful if not heading right into the wind). And windscoops are always a big help, as mentioned above.

I wouldn't feel tied to opening ports, but I bet you could find something that looked OK with the existing ones too. Now, if only WE knew what they looked like...
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Post by mdidriksen »

Here are some pics to show you what I'm talking about. (When I posted last night I didn't have easy access to these.)

Here is what she looked like at closing. As you can see, the aft portlights don't come close to matching the forward ones, and the sizing seems off.

Image

Here is the current state of play. The interior picture shows that there is basically no room to play with at the front corner, so if I want somthing that goes higher I think we will need to glass in part of the cabin sides.

Image

Image

The boat came with a wind scoop, and will hang on a mooring, so right now I'm leaning a bit more towards windows than I had been, but still not sure. What I need to do is photoshop some options on, just haven't had time to deal with that.

Thanks again!

MD
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

By way of putting us on the same page: You can readily have the 6 smaller ports as opening. You can have some portion or all the four large ports operable. You have only one hatch in the house top. My four large ports are fixed, I have only one of my 6 ports operable, but have two large hatches. We're normally on a mooring or at anchor and that's adequate with a scoop. We both have conventional companionways but we can leave ours open in inclement weather because of a dodger; it's a nice addition but not as pretty. When things are really nastier or colder, we shut the companionway partially or wholly. We have a louver in the lower companionway board which is always open along with the dorades. You'll have to flip some coins!

If you were to decide upon fixed ports then I'd tape some white cardboard over the holes and start sketching. As noted, it was always pretty normal to step up port size with the cabin top. (On your boat, it looks as though the vertical dimension would be more than what's reasonably available in an opening port.)

There are quite a few styles for shaping large ports. To my eye, only the Alden Challenger is really right; a split ellipse (like the original Volkswagen rear window). Shapes which are symmetrical fore and aft look like '40s automobiles and were cheaper since all the glass pieces, and half the trim rings, were the same. Some mfrs. worked to relate to the shape of the house with the forward edge of the port hinting at the shape of the cabintop step and the after raked like the aft bulkhead; this occasionally works, but more often are, well, classic. Certainly the ports on our LeComte are a little on the potato-centric side, a bit shapeless, and he decided to make the shapes straight on the bottom but canted a smidge to follow the sweep of the sheer. Potato-centric and clunky at the same time! New Morris tries for a '60s Hinckley elegance but the ports are symmetrical fore and aft. 80's Sabres give it up and clunk rounded rectangles in; a reasonable, if unadventurous look. 80s Catalinas have straightish lines paralling the available space. They get 'way too attenuated and have sharp corners which seems like a great way to invite stress concentrations. (Looks like one behind your boat in the picture)

If I were going to make the ports, I think I'd sketch leaving about the same perimeter space above and below all the ports and let the increase be about the same as the step up. I'd try to sweep the upper forward corner down related to your cabin top; I'd want a little 'happier', more space around the port and the interior white plastic overhead. I'd match the angle that the coaming meets the cabin side. I'd match your new operable ports for bottom forward and aft radii and a bit larger at the aft upper, and a bit smaller for the four corners at a vertical center post. Then I'd walk away and wait for the resident dock lizards to praise it.

I would not hesitate very long, given my skills and general bone-headedness to make ports. Look at the early Hinckley B-40s or any old Tripp design. The 'glass rolls into the opening and the glass is sealed to the inside with (the right) goo and a wood trim ring. This is well within the capabilities of someone not afraid of a pot of epoxy and who has a nice collection of angle grinders, sanders and files.

If I were going to buy ports, I'd want them to match in every detail but size.
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Post by Rachel »

I see what you mean, MD - those ports do look a little bunker/gun slittish.

I agree with what Quetzal said. I've always loved the ports on the Meridian, precisely because they were not mirror images of each other, but instead were "shaped."

Image

I also like the "double D" ports on the Challenger, but they probably wouldn't work aesthetically with the rest of yours. (Side note: Quetzal, I always though those were mirror images - or are they subtly different?)

Image


I once looked at a wooden Eastward Ho wherein the owner had taken out the "shaped" fixed ports and replaced them with some large, bronze, rectangular ports. As much as they were wonderful, beefy ports, I though it just ruined the "flow" of the boat vs. the shaped fixed ports.

I'd would probably use Photoshop at first, then some cardboard mock-ups on the boat.
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Post by Zach »

There is an alberg thirty moored not far from me that has an opening port mounted in the fixed port light over the galley.

Thought it was a pretty slick idea, and from a distance you don't really pick up on the fact its not something behind the window... rather than a part of it.
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Post by David »

Ports and portlights are such strong identity signatures of sailboats. The larger fixed lights in doghouses, along with eyebrows help asthetically to reduce the height of the cabin. I think oval ports for fixed lights are more pleasing as OEM replacements than rectangular lights. Of course where you sail should help govern the size and strength of ports. Ultimately it is what you like (Photoshop will be an aid) and what you wish to budget for the modification. I think opening ports are always better--living in Florida--but you can cool a boat off enough to merit a light blanket down here with just a wind scoop on the forward hatch.
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Re: Fixed Windows v Opening Ports

Post by Tom Young »

mdidriksen wrote:Okay, longtime lurker –
So, my questions are as follows:

1. How important is it to have opening ports in this location for ventilation purposes? The standard design of this boat (the U.K. version) had fixed windows in this location, similar to a Triton (mine is not “standard” in that while it was built in the U.K. it was outfitted in the U.S.). The main hatch is right there, so there is ventilation from that and the two ports farthest forward in the main salon (i.e., the middle port on each side) are opening portlights. That being said, for some reason I’m worried about not having opening ports in the stepped up portion of the coach roof. I grew up sailing on a boat that had an opening port at the galley, and it was always nice to have fresh air there when the boat was rolling, and this is where the galley is. However, the boat is small enough that I’m not sure it matters – reality is that this will be a daysailor or weekender much more than a long-term cruiser. Any thoughts on this?


MD
I can see great ideas and thoughts have already been posted. I would only add that I don't think you'll miss not having the ventilation you've mentioned. At least not in a temperate climate.

However, we have found with the large ports we have on our boat (an Alden Challenger), curtains are mandatory. Not for privacy so much as solar gain. Even in Maine, a bright sun will quickly heat up our interior. A good thing at times but the curtains are most important to keep the cabin cool in the hot and low afternoon sun.

All our ventilation comes from two overhead hatches. I've had boats with more opening ports on the cabinsides and recall they added little ventiilation compared to the overhead hatches.
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Post by Henk »

Here are my two cents. I struggled with the same question. Cost was also a (big) issue. The original larger portlights couldn't open and since the boat is from 1963 I wanted to keep the 'look'. The small windows did open but I decided to use this system for all eight windows. It works well although you need a special tool that looks like a screw driver to install it.

Image

I had the windows made of plexiglass. Like most mentioned here, I too use the forward hatch for fresh air and don't miss the opening ports. But I'm on Vancouver Island, it doesn't get hot and muggy here.

Image
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Post by Tom Young »

Quetzalsailor wrote:
I would not hesitate very long, given my skills and general bone-headedness to make ports. Look at the early Hinckley B-40s or any old Tripp design. The 'glass rolls into the opening and the glass is sealed to the inside with (the right) goo and a wood trim ring. This is well within the capabilities of someone not afraid of a pot of epoxy and who has a nice collection of angle grinders, sanders and files.

If I were going to buy ports, I'd want them to match in every detail but size.
I wouldn't hesitate either, especially in that there have been many nicely done fixed ports drawn over the years. Here's one I've always admired that might work with the S&S fixed port. These were drawn by K Aage Nielsen in the 50's. His boats often have these wonderful details that may look simple but I'm sure were perfected over and over before he had what looked right to his eye.

They're so nicely scaled and wonderful to look at on this boat.

Somehow, I don't think Aage would have been too impressed with the "rounded rectangle" tool on a drawing program.

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Post by Peter »

MD wrote:1. How important is it to have opening ports in this location for ventilation purposes?
My personal preference would be for dorade vents, rather than opening ports. But then again, it never gets very warm on the ocean around here!
Henk wrote:The small windows did open but I decided to use this system for all eight windows.
This is similar to the way the Series I Vega ports are done ... did you do these yourself? If so, how difficult was it to get the tight radius on the small ports? Mine are in good shape and leak-free, but I suspect they were redone by a PO not too long ago.

Later Vegas used a diffent strip, like this:
Image
It allows the glass to overlap the hole, making for a stronger port if hit by a large wave. Trouble is, I can't find any except, in the UK.
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Post by Allen »

MD, welcome aboard.

I've been living aboard for a while now and have yet to use my opening ports, even in a marina. As previously mentioned the forward hatch does all the work when at anchor and I have a great little A/C fan that takes care of things at the dock.

The advantage of non-opening ports is you don't have to deal with maintaining the gasket and you are not really limited to any specific size or shape of port. For your main cabin, this will allow you to go bigger which will provide a better view and more light.
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Post by Henk »

Peter, I did install the windows myself. I ended up getting the rubber gasket from a local auto-glass and upholsterer shop. The min. radius was 4" I seem to recall. Any smaller and the rubber doesn't bend but starts to 'fold'. So I used my trusty ol' router and made the small portholes a little bigger. Used lots of soap and let the rubber lie in the sun for an hour or so to make it flexible. Like everything else, the last one was easiest. I spent two hours fighting with the first one, nearly broke a finger, the last window was installed in less than 10 minutes.

The nice thing about this self sealing rubber widow gasket is that you can make your own windows and make them whatever size you like, as long as you use a 4" radius or more.
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Post by Zach »

Tip from installing windshields and auto glass. Not sure how well it transfers over to boats...

Depending on the depth of the groove in the rubber that latches on to the cabin top... you can use a skinny nylon cord to pull it over the lip.

One end of the cord gets tucked inside the boat. I start with the cord at the top in the middle.

The key to success, is to cut the end off of a tube of caulk and use that plastic tip to feed the cord into the groove in the rubber. Instead of just laying loose, you can pull against the cord... while pushing in on the rubber so it starts rolling over the lip. Run the cord through the tip.

Now get someone to hold the glass in place from the outside, pull in on the cord... and the rubber pulls over the lip and rolls in to place.

I use spray cans of window cleaner as a lubricant... (Adventures with silicone spray are best left undisclosed... My first foray into "whadya mean the paint don't stick...")

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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Both gaskets that are illustrated above have an important detail which is not mentioned: the 'zip strip'. That is, once you've got the glass in you add a rubber locking strip that pops into the spade-shaped groove. This detail makes it easier to glaze and far harder to pop the glass out.

I've sucessfully removed the windshield from a '53 Studebaker Champion and a from '60 Studebaker Hawk and put the '60 Stude's glass and gasket in the '53. What a pain! No zip strip on those gaskets; they were stiffer when new and adding to the pleasure, the rubber was stiffer with age. The string trick did not work all that well, but it would have been impossible without it.

Can't tell well from the pictures but the S&S 34 in question may not have planar house sides and it ought to have a cored house. New glazing will most likely be planar so one of the problems to be solved, no matter the glazing system, is getting the glazing mounting flange/surface flat. Another is to get it the right thickness if using one of these gaskets. These sorts of gaskets are available for different thicknesses of glazing and surround; typical architectural applications are for 1" cored panels and 1" insulated glass and there are plenty others.

No one has mentioned the glazing material. I'd prefer safety glass, that is, with the butyl film interlayer. Tempered glass won't do since it shatters when broken and I'd rather have the glass stay in the opening when broken. Various plastics are more common, but while more susceptable to scratching, crazing, cracking and UV damage, can be bent or perhaps just sprung to an out-of-plane shape.

Other glazing methods are worth exploring. Many boats, most cars, and some buildings are glazed with 'structural glazing' methods. That is the gasket is an adhesive and there's nothing else, no trim rings, no mechanical fastenings.

There are several boats with operable ports in a fixed port. I'd bet these are specialty items for stylists who like the big-stripe-of-black school of house design rather than something really desirable. At the least, the structural parts would be opaque from inside and take away from the pleasure of a large port.

You're right, Rachel, the Challenger's split ellipse is symmetrical fore and aft, but, oh, so elegant!
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Post by mdidriksen »

Thanks for all the replies -- this has been very helpful.

One question for those who are familiar with the rubber gasket approach that has been talked about above: How secure are these windows? Despite the fact that my typical usage will not involve a lot of open ocean sailing, I'm not ruling out the possibility of ranging as far afield as Bermuda or Nova Scotia (I'm NY based). So whatever I put in I'd like it to be strong enough to be able to take a broadside from a wave.

Kicking around the web, the other approach appears to be a custom manufactured metal frame that is then bedded into the cabin sides.

BTW, I believe the cabinsides are not cored, but rather about 1/4 inch solid glass with veneered plywood applied to the interior for additional support.
David

Post by David »

One of your original requests was to match the existing Spartan marine bronze ports that your boat has forward of your doghouse. The rubber windshield gaskets will not match your existing ports, Instead--especially since you are thinking about offshore passages, consider replacing all the ports with Beckson ports. They make an opening port about 10" tall by about 16" long that meets your wishes for larger port sizes in the doghouse, plus they make many different sizes of smaller ports. The Becksons are very strong and long lasting, relatively inexpensive and spare parts are readily available.

http://www.beckson.com/ports.html

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Post by Peter »

MD wrote:How secure are these windows?
On the larger windows the non-overlapping rubber is not secure for offshore weather conditions. There are two documented cases of Albin Vegas losing a window offshore: one in "Berserk" in the Antarctic, and another on Anne Miller's Atlantic crossing in "Rupert". In both instances it was a near fatal disaster.
The overlaping rubber profile would certainly be better, but how much better I don't know.

That said, all my windows are glass and use the non-overlapping rubber with 'chrome' lock strips. If I venture out into open water I'll make a couple of plugs for the windows similar to those in an article in Good Old Boat Magazine.
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Post by Ronin120 »

Well, I guess I get to be the contrarian here but I don't find the existing window's size or shape to be unpleasant. Actually, I find them to be pretty purposeful and in keeping with what appears to be a pretty rugged off-shore vessel.

Now, I don't have a 'classic' boat but I have had a couple in the past and the thought of larger, thin-framed ports in a blow offshore would keep me awake during the off-watch.

As far as ventilation goes, my boat has fixed mains and two Beckson opening ports, one in the head and one in the main cabin opposite. Two large opening hatches. With the hatches open and a windsock or something similar there's never been a lack of breeze. At anchor that's where most of cooling affect will be from rather than from the cabin-side ports.

An honestly, if I were replacing those main ports I'd figure out how to put in some style of fixed port with a substantial frame that was through-bolted.

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Post by mdidriksen »

Dave:

I don't think the existing ports were too far off, but I don't think they quite "fit" right. Funny thing is, with them ripped out the holes look better than the ports did. Here is a pic that shows a closer look at how they looked before removal. Part of the issue is clearly the plastic, as it doesn't match the character of the rest of the boat. As of now, my sense is that I won't be making them go any lower down in the cabin sides, but 2 to 3 inches higher would look better, and perhaps a bit shorter in length.

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Post by Rachel »

I agree. While they're not hideous, they aren't quite right either. I think what bugs me is that the smaller, forward ports have a larger radius corner; then the "main" ports have these tight, squared off corners. They look original, but it's the sort of look I associate with a slightly misguided "re-porting" of a boat. They could certainly look nicer, to my eye, with a slightly different shape.

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Post by Tim »

I'm going to be a real contrarian and opine that to my eye, those Spartan ports are the ones that look out of place on that boat, frankly. The after ports aren't quite right either, but in combination with the clunky-looking (on that particular boat) Spartans, it's just a weird contrast of very modern with very traditional.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't be looking to match the look of the Spartans with the new after ports; I have to agree, and further suggest, that the more modern appearance of the after ports, allowing for finessing of the size and details, actually complements the look of the boat better.

Between the asymmetrical spacing (which I always find odd-looking and could never live with) and the Cape Dory look of the Spartan oval ports (or rounded rectangles, if you prefer), somehow they don't mesh with the overall appearance of the boat to my eye. The boat is too 70s "modern"-looking, with its rakish bow and transom, to work successfully with those ports. The boat doesn't fit with traditional-looking bronze ports (or vise-versa); it's a nice-looking boat, but decidedly more modern in appearance than those bronze ports can support. Those ports belong on, and look good on, something like a Cape Dory. But your S&S 34 is far removed from a Cape Dory--and from many of the other boats mentioned in this thread too.

I know the Spartans are nice ports and all. But if it were me, I'd be reconfiguring ALL the ports. I don't know offhand what the "perfect" replacement is for all the ports, but if it were my boat I'd be looking at lots of alternatives. The overall look (and success thereof) of a boat is a complex thing--subjective, yes, but also not. Certain things look better than others for often intangible, yet instantly-noticeable, reasons. Sometimes one doesn't know what's "right" till one sees it...and then often one cannot instantly put one's finger on exactly what is so "right". It's just the wholeness of the thing that makes it right.

(In my opinion; for what it's worth; what do I know; add additional disclaimers here. Just another potentially time-consuming, destructive, expensive wrench in the works. I'm good at that. Sorry for the additional confusion.)
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You could start with this photo for a template.

Post by Tom Young »

mdidriksen wrote:Dave:

I don't think the existing ports were too far off, but I don't think they quite "fit" right. Funny thing is, with them ripped out the holes look better than the ports did. Here is a pic that shows a closer look at how they looked before removal. Part of the issue is clearly the plastic, as it doesn't match the character of the rest of the boat. As of now, my sense is that I won't be making them go any lower down in the cabin sides, but 2 to 3 inches higher would look better, and perhaps a bit shorter in length.

Image
It's a perfect angle for the ports. Make a line drawing of the photo on a simple CAD drawing program. Or, if you're handy with a pencil, use it to trace the lines onto some tracing paper.

Stuff like this can be done on paper first to see what works best. Try your "2 to 3 inches higher" idea, first with 2, then with 3.

It's hard to take a guess (but we're having fun trying) at a scale and have it be right.
Quetzalsailor
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Quetzalsailor
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Image[/img]

Well, tried again. Traced onto yellow sketch roll from downloaded and printed picture; obviously quick sketch; scanned w/fiery and Photoshop; uploaded .jpg to Photoshop, entered here.

Bottom edges parallel to sheer and about the same height as the forward ports. Top edges parallel to house top. Top forward curve offset from house top. Aft edge and maybe the post, parallel to the intersection of coaming and house side. Outer three radii same as forward ports. Post radii smaller.

Don't like the rhythm of the forward ports, either. Hull shape is lovely.

Is that a Monitor?
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Post by Rachel »

I agree with you Tim, now that you say it (hey, I'm my own contrarian!). I'd lost sight of the fact that the forward ports were also additions. I agree they they're a bit too "owly" and not right for the era of the boat (tho' sturdy and functional so probably harder to give up than the after ones).

A complete re-porting would be the best way to come up with a pleasing design, you're right.

Quetzal: I like the angles and overall look. Maybe I'd say a bit smaller and less "old fashioned curvy" on the large ones? At least that'd be the next paper mod I'd make.

Rachel
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Post by Ronin120 »

Yeah, I think that Tim brings the holistic approach to the aesthetics and when looking at it (them) from that angle it does change the equation.

From my viewpoint, the main ports look new'ish, almost as if added after much later than the forward ports. And given the radius of the aft ports, they seem to fit with the offerings of Beckson and Lewmar.

Anyway MD, it looks like we forum members have figured out ways for you replace all your ports! Maybe glass over the whole structure and put in all new ports. :-)

Good luck.
Dave
1982 C&C 37 - under reconstruction
1988 Mako 26 CC - don't laugh, it needs work too.
1970's vintage Snipe
1970 Islander 37 - sold
1968 Cal 25 - sold but still racing...

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Post by mdidriksen »

Hah. I knew this re-fit would snowball once it started, so of course asking this forum is just asking for trouble in that regard!

Tim/Rachel: I agree that the staggered setup of the forward ports is odd, but disliked the aft ports so much I had not really focused on the others, location wise (and disclaimers duly noted). Not sure that keeping all three and making them equal distances apart will work due to bulkhead issues, but I'll have to check that. Replacing six more ports is not a huge expense, given that they are smaller ports, but it is still a significant change to the plan. I'll have to think about that one some more, as the budget is not unlimited (and I ordered a new engine this morning!).

Quetzalsailor: Thanks for the sketch -- I'll need to tinker with that some more. Planning on heading up to the boat later this week, so seeing it in person will help. And yes, that is a Monitor hanging off the stern. Haven't used it yet, so no views on it. Does have a good reputation, though.
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Post by LazyGuy »

Great thread going here. Looking for opinions and as usual, the regulars here don't disappoint. This is not the first boat I have seen with ports that are unevenly spaced. If you look, the larger space between the second and third port coincides with the mast step so there is a decent chance that there is a bulkhead or beefed up trunk cabin side that will make moving the second port aft or the third port forward difficult.

One idea for changing the look of the Spartan ports is to (don't all scream at once) paint the outside trim ring to match the color of the trunk cabin. That would mimic the Hinckley rimless window. Sort of makes it more of a timeless look. I know- Paint Bronze!!! But it would still be an opening port and the cost would be much more reasonable.
Cheers

Dennis
Luders 33 "Paper Moon" Hull No 16

Life is too short to own an ugly boat.
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Post by Tom Young »

Quetzalsailor wrote:Image[/img]

Well, tried again. Traced onto yellow sketch roll from downloaded and printed picture; obviously quick sketch; scanned w/fiery and Photoshop; uploaded .jpg to Photoshop, entered here.

Bottom edges parallel to sheer and about the same height as the forward ports. Top edges parallel to house top. Top forward curve offset from house top. Aft edge and maybe the post, parallel to the intersection of coaming and house side. Outer three radii same as forward ports. Post radii smaller.

Don't like the rhythm of the forward ports, either. Hull shape is lovely.

Is that a Monitor?
Nice fast work. I think that looks better. At any rate, I doubt I would change the 6 Spartan ports (I'm way too cheap), even if they don't look quite right. I'd reshape these first and going fixed makes the work pretty straight forward.

I think as Rachael mentioned, maybe a little lower in height. I like the general shape though.
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Post by mdidriksen »

So I've spent some time tonight working on a window design, using a template of the interior cabin (I'm using the interior because there are space contraints on the interior that will limit the size of the windows). I've worked up something for the front windows that I think I like from an aesthetics standpoint (it's actually pretty similar to what Quetzalsailor posted).

I'm struggling with some materials issues, though. One option appears to be an extruded aluminum frame. I've gotten quotes from two businesses that do custom frame jobs like this. Cost wise, they are reasonable numbers. My concern is that extruded aluminum is not going to look all that great on the boat. I'm not convinced I'm going to like the look in any event, and I think having the tarnished bronze of the Spartans in contrast will just make it stand out. One option is to powder coat them to try and make them look bronze, but I'm skeptical. Anyone have experience with these types of windows? I've heard the frames get bent sometimes on install, resulting in leak problems as well.

The only other option that's been suggested that appeals to me is to go frameless. A lot of boats have their larger windows mounted this way, and I think I'm leaning towards this approach. I just don't know how it is done. Anyone have insights into this? Is an interior flange created, with the window pressed into the flange from the outside? Or is it done the opposite way? Is it really possible to seal the windows in such that they will take a beating? I'm concerned, for example, that taking a big wave on board would flex the cabin top and pop the windows out. I'm sure there is a good way to do this, since some very high quality boats take this approach. See, e.g., Morris Yachts. Thoughts anyone?

Thanks in advance!
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I've been scanning some old Alden Challenger drawings.

Post by Tom Young »

It takes folding a section at a time. Then export them as images to my CAD program and "paste" them together. You can see the faint seem at the boom here.

At any rate while these ports are not applicable, I suppose it just shows how Alden balanced them out.

I love these old pencil drawings, they're a work of art.

Image
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Post by Tom Young »

mdidriksen wrote: The only other option that's been suggested that appeals to me is to go frameless. A lot of boats have their larger windows mounted this way, and I think I'm leaning towards this approach. I just don't know how it is done. Anyone have insights into this? Is an interior flange created, with the window pressed into the flange from the outside? Or is it done the opposite way? Is it really possible to seal the windows in such that they will take a beating? I'm concerned, for example, that taking a big wave on board would flex the cabin top and pop the windows out. I'm sure there is a good way to do this, since some very high quality boats take this approach. See, e.g., Morris Yachts. Thoughts anyone?

Thanks in advance!
Old boats like mine I've seen have the flange on the inside formed by a rabbit cut into the cabin side. Bedded in sealant, the glass is then held by a small wooden moulding (and more sealant). Most also have bronze threaded inserts to allow attaching a plexiglass or lexan shutter to the larger ports.

I think in a fberglass cabin, the opposite would be the case with the flange formed on the exterior and a frame on the interior. The mechanics and strengths would all be dependent on the size of the glazing I suppose.

I like the look of ports done this way (like Hinckleys). As an aside, the sealants and systems used on the old boats are made to renew and appear to outlast the years between wooding the cabins. That's when you'd pull the ports to make that project easier.
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What about NFM

Post by Maine Sail »

Have you considered stainless New Found metals ports. They would fit the style of your boat. The forward ones look like 4X14's would work then the aft two could be a larger rectangular size??


If you ant to go custom extruded aluminum Bomon (NOT BOMAR) in Canada is great!

These are 4X14 NFM stainless


Image
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mdidriksen
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Post by mdidriksen »

Yes, I've looked at the NFM ports and specifically the 4x14s would fit the smaller openings and I think would look great. (I've read your write up on the install more than once, by the way.) Unfortunately, the larger ones will not fit in the aft section without doing some fiberglass work, which then necessitates painting the deck. So to go that route probably means committing to another $10K or more, once it is all said and done (I can't do any of the work myself -- the boat is a 4 hour drive from my house at the moment). Ideally, I would like to paint the deck anyway, but the existing paint job is generally in decent shape.

The larger NFM ports are special order only and run around $600 a piece. I think I would actually like the look of a custom shape to the aft windows more than the larger NFM ports anyway, so my ideal would be to go frameless in the back and then put the NFM 4x14s up front. I might be able to do this without painting the deck, so it is still a possibility I'd get the NFMs for up front. I'm already way over budget, though, and I've got a significant contingency I'm still working through related to the keel bolts (a story for a different thread . . .)

So if anyone knows how Hinckley, Morris, etc. do their frameless windows, I'm all ears.
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Yikes! $600? On the other hand, what's your time worth and how much of your time will be spent in preparing the boat for the $600 infusion?

The LeComte NE 38 has Hinckley styled ports; actually, they both have Bill Tripp styled ports.

On the LeComte, the exterior side of the layup is rolled into the opening, creating a 'bullnosed' reveal of about 3/4+ inch deep. Pretty obvious that this would be a pain when taking the part out of a mould! There's a wad, an application of, filled polyester buttered around the opening. In Quetzal, this filler appears to me to be cork granules and polyester. The glass is bedded onto the filler. The house wood liner is installed and nailed or screwed to the filler and to wood strips. A wood trim ring is screwed to the filler and retains both the glass and the house liner. The one opening port is an inside-mounted bronze frame with gasket and hinged bronze-framed 'sash' and is simply screwed into the filler. I have not removed either fixed or operating ports on Q, so perhaps the exterior layup is both wrapped into the opening and then wrapped onto the filler. There's no sign of that at the perimeter of the bronze.

This system is clearly a little suspect for serious cruising work.

It can be improved mightily by improving, or ensuring, the quality of the filler. The filler could be solid 'glass drilled and tapped for machine screws. The solid glass could be pre-laid up stuff from McMaster Carr and bonded into the house.
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Post by Tom Young »

Quetzalsailor wrote:
This system is clearly a little suspect for serious cruising work.

It can be improved mightily by improving, or ensuring, the quality of the filler. The filler could be solid 'glass drilled and tapped for machine screws. The solid glass could be pre-laid up stuff from McMaster Carr and bonded into the house.
With a few of your boats around, I've always liked the way the ports are finished into the cabinside. I wasn't aware they're a permanent arrangement(if I understand your description). Have you had any leaks?

Why do you think they're suspect, from the glass size (and imploding) or the structure of how they're held in the cabin? What glazing and thickness did LeComte use?
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Tom,

The LeComte and the other Tripp boats look the same, so I'd imagine that it's a permanent and original arrangement. Certainly, Quetzal's fixed ports have all leaked in the past; discolored wood, rotted backup, warped ceiling, badly re-bunged port trim, as well as no leaks now, tell the tale. The only question is 'how many times'?
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