Tripp-Lentsch 29 Keel Bolt Issue

Steve'O · Post by **Steve'O** » Fri May 02, 2008 2:21 pm

I just took delivery of my Tripp Lentsch 30 "Good Hope"

Like most of these old girls she needs some work. Top of the list is the old Atomic 4 which is dead. When I purchased her I had thought the ballast was internal/encapsulated but when we got her out of the water I was surprised to find that it's bolted on.

A little digging and out popped a whole lot of 5200 and the gap between hull/keel is at least a quarter inch.

I'm looking for some suggestions on how to deal with this new surprise. I'd love to torque up the keel bolts but they're below the glassed in water tank. The tank looks like it was built as part of the original layup. I figure that I'll fair in the gap with some West system G-flex (it's supposed to be formulated for this application) but I've never used the stuff. I could also just clean out the old 5200 and pump in a whole lot if new 5200. Anyone have a suggestion?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Fri May 02, 2008 4:00 pm

This may be too huge, but I found it helpful to look at the detail. It's the photo that was at the address in your first post (that didn't load properly; I added .jpg to the end of it).

If it does throw everything out of whack, I can delete it (or Tim is welcome to).

[img]http://lh4.ggpht.com/mr.stevesachs/SBjI ... Joint%.jpg[/img]

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Fri May 02, 2008 5:21 pm

Your keel looks a lot like the keel on the LeComte Northeast 38, which I know a bit about, so I'll share. It could be that it doesn't apply to yours, so it's a case of "keep in mind what you paid for the advice", but if it helps, that's great!

Our boats are also externally attached lead, also built in Holland, also have that strange triangular filler at the front of the ballast, and also have the keel bolts and their nuts buried in glass inside the water tank. Several owners have been concerned about the attachment of their keels, since the boats are so old and everyone likes to check their keel bolts out from time to time - having (in my case) a boat that's 43 years old and never checking the keel bolts is a bit unnerving!

That said, only two owners that I know of have dug out the bottom of the water tank to see what's up, and both of those have reported back that all is well.

One of the Northeast 38's recently went ashore over a reef in the Bahamas, which did a bunch of damage to the bottom of the keel, as you can imagine. Probably more remarkable is that it didn't kill the boat, or even render it unusable - the story is here: http://www.lecomteowners.com/index.php? ... view&id=69. As a result of the accident, the owner wanted to get a good look at the keel bolts, which he did. He found that the only damage was to the bedding between the keel and the hull - in the area that your "gap" is - and that the fix was to lower the keel, fill the gap with epoxy, and tighten the keel on again while it was wet. Or something much like that. His description of it is in the forums on the site linked to above - as is the shop which did the work, who you might call up to discuss it with. Here's his quote regarding where the work was done: "Secondly, if you ever need help in south central Florida, Riversie Boat Yard is a good place to go." They'd probably know as much about it as anyone at this point, unless you do better with the folks on the Tripp Lentsch site.

I don't know if this helps you out at all or not. I guess if it were me I'd be cleaning that out to see if the ballast is actually wagging around under the boat, and if it is I'd be getting at the keelbolts to drop it, fix the joint, and re-attach it. Or at least to tighten the bolts. If it's not wagging around, I'd probably just fair over the crack and sail until there was a reason to do more. People who know more than I do about it have told me that I'll have plenty of warning before it becomes a real issue - if one bolt should go, I'll see the results and be able to deal with it at the next haulout.

Good luck with it - I'll be curious to hear what others have to say, too!

Cheers,

Chris[/url]

Post by **Tim** » Sat May 03, 2008 6:32 am

It's not at all uncommon to see fairly large gaps between the fiberglass molding and the lead casting. This varies widely from boat to boat and builder to builder, so there are no hard and fast rules. While it's wise to delve a bit deeper to see if there's actually another problem at hand, I would suggest that you not get too concerned yet.

Take a look at the overall character of the joint in all areas--first before removing any more material and then, depending on your findings, after removing excess caulk or other fillers. It may well be that the inner part of the casting, where the bolts are, is much tighter and that the gapping exists only at the edge, or only where you show it above. While tighter tolerances might have been nice at the build stage, this alone doesn't mean you have an issue.

A filled gap alone is not a sign of a keel issue. There may be more going on, but it's likely that it's just a question of inconsistent casting fit that led to a very wide gap. Keep looking, but don't immediately worry.

JetStream · Post by **JetStream** » Sun May 04, 2008 8:53 am

Just thought I'd add a few cents to say the the earlier posts on this issue are all very good and maybe my experience will help put your mind at ease. I removed the lead ballast keel from my Javelin 38 (same construction as yours) and found the keel bolts to be like new. I rebedded the keel in 5200, torqued up the keel bolts and then resealed them with epoxy and glass in the water tanks. It's a pain getting at the nuts because you really need to cut the whole top of the water tanks off to work on that area. I think Tim's advice is where I'd go. I'll bet you'll find the ballast drawn up pretty tight where the bolts come through. You can see a few pictures of this area on my website http://www.javelin38.com , although I never finished posting the pictures with the ballast off and then reassembled. Enjoy your new ride. That is a terrific boat.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun May 04, 2008 9:57 am

Hi Bruce,

I know this won't add anything "scientific" to the thread, but just for ballpark's sake, what kind of life would you say your boat has had? I mean, has it been sailed hard a lot? Been in salt or fresh water most of its life? Been sailed regularly or been on the hard for much of its life? That sort of thing. Also, could you tell what the keel-bolts were made of?

I've read through your website in the past and enjoyed it. Thanks. I also think "Jet Stream" is a really neat name. By the way, have you seen this ad for a really nice looking Javelin for sale in Illinois? It was one of those dangerous ads that made me start rationalizing spending that much, and thinking "No, I really could handle a 38-footer" etc. etc. <grin>

http://tinyurl.com/5zfl9c

Steve'O · Post by **Steve'O** » Sun May 04, 2008 2:57 pm

Thanks team you've eased my mind- slightly. The boat is built like a tank so I'm sure the keel bolts are well over sized. Still I don't think it’s a case of inconsistent fiberglass as Tim has suggested. I could see the threads of one keel bolt through the gap and it just seems so wide. I’ll know more of the true condition when I go back down to the boat next week. I'll pull some more gunk out of the connection and grind back some of the fairing compound to see whether the keel is tight in certain areas and gapped at others. I’ll post my findings

From what y’all are saying I don’t have an immediate issue though I think this will turn out to be something I'm going to want to deal with eventually. For now I’m going to tackle some of the other issues I have and leave this one as a future project

I guess I’ll use 5200 in the gap since the west system G-flex epoxy may be more difficult to remove in the future. So one day when I have nothing better to do I’ll cut the floor pan out and go digging through the water tank .

Incidentally the old transducer was a through hull variety and had been removed. Someone had plugged the old hole with a piece of wood and secured it in place with a couple of bronze screws. I intend to glass over the plug with some mat and west epoxy. Does anyone know how many layers of glass I should use?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun May 04, 2008 5:38 pm

I think this earlier thread, about downsizing an instrument through hull, should give you the information you need:

http://tinyurl.com/65lheh

JetStream · Post by **JetStream** » Sun May 04, 2008 8:14 pm

Actually, when I dropped my keel ballast, there was a fairly heavy layer of material separating the lead from the hull. I examined the stuff pretty carefully and believe it was a very dense two part polyurethane foam. It was the same stuff they used for core in my deck. There was caulk in the joint (5200 like material but probably dolfinite or something) only on the outside. Perhaps someone in the past has dug in as far as the bolts and then replaced what was there with 5200. My keel bolts are stainless with zero crevice corrosion or other deterioration.

Rachel, that Javelin for sale was in San Diego, CA earlier this year. That is the one originally named "Javelin" (hull #11) that used to be in Maine a few years ago and was for sale there. It has more miles under its keel than most cruisers, but they are all by highway.

JetStream · Post by **JetStream** » Sun May 04, 2008 8:26 pm

Sorry, Rachel, I forgot to answer the rest of your questions. Jet Stream has always been a salt water boat. She was raced extensively from 1961 to about 1980 in Long Island Sound and along the East Coast. After that, the history gets murky and I know she has been on the hard since 1990.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun May 04, 2008 9:57 pm

Thanks for the additional information, Bruce. It sounds like Jet Stream's keel bolts should have had a fair workout early on; it's great to know they looked so good.

I thought I saw that Javelin for sale in San Diego, but then when I looked up the ad today I figured I must have remembered wrong. Interesting.

Steve, how easy is it to dig out the bedding from your keel joint? If it's relatively easy, I wouldn't think it is 5200. If it's original it would be something else for sure, but of course it could have been modified at some point.

R.

Post by **Tim** » Mon May 05, 2008 6:02 am

JetStream wrote:Rachel, that Javelin for sale was in San Diego, CA earlier this year. That is the one originally named "Javelin" (hull #11) that used to be in Maine a few years ago and was for sale there. It has more miles under its keel than most cruisers, but they are all by highway.

I thought that boat looked and sounded (by ad description) a lot like Lively, as she was formerly known. She sure seems to have seen the country by now.

Steve'O · Post by **Steve'O** » Mon May 05, 2008 9:06 am

Rachel,
The bedding material came out fairly easily. I used one of those curved painter's scrapers to drag along the joint. Once I got a raised edge I pulled and the stuff just started to come out. I have no idea what product it is. It's white and strong but there was water inside the joint and who knows how old it is. I need to spend some more time getting the remainder out.
I intend to clean the joint out, let things dry for a while, sand paper as much as I can, then gum in a bunch of 5200. I may have to fair in the lead to the hull too.

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Mon May 05, 2008 10:56 am

Probably goes without saying, but please do post pictures of what you find - the more information I can gather about these joints the better I feel, oddly enough!

Thanks,

Chris

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon May 05, 2008 12:21 pm

And besides, we just like to see this sort of thing!

Steve'O · Post by **Steve'O** » Tue May 06, 2008 4:21 pm

OK I did some more digging today. There's definitely two types of bedding material under the keel. The stuff I'm pulling out is a rubbery silicony material that was squirted into the big gaps. At the tighter areas there's a crumbly fairing type material. Also on closer inspection I beleive that Tim is correct about this being an inconsistent casting . The leading and tailing edges of the lead ballast are tight. On the horizontal portion, the middle is tight and there are gaps foreward and aft of the tight section.

It's just that the gap is much larger than I would have expected and goes all the way across. I didn't have my camera with me but will post pics as soon as I can.

OK so here's anothe rookie question if I squirt 5200 in the gap can I fair over the dried 5200 with West system?

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Wed May 07, 2008 8:38 am

Several of us correspondents have this same detail and have the same concerns about knowing all is well with these 40 year old unverifiable things. The best news was referred to above, the mid 60s NE 38 and the stress test against the reef.

I'd rake out what I could, preferably over an inch everywhere, get the faying surfaces clean, get the remaining joint dry, seal it up with 5200. Issues include: the 5200 really isn't a gap-filling goo; it drips and runs; y'gotta' hold it in place, say with tape. If the joint moves, and it will because the lead and the 'glass are different materials, it won't be moving far if all is well with the size (width x length) of the keel joint and the stiffness of the hull. (My joint shows, both as a minor crack in the paint, and as a series of discolorations as the joint dried out over the winter.)

I think that fairing over the 5200 with a stiff compound like the WEST epoxy + fillers will work, but not well and not for long. I think, after the first major filling, that I'd use multiple thin puttyings of 5200, carving and sanding back down to 'about right'.

As for a 'life of the boat' repair, I've often thought that glassing over the joint and lead, using enough 'glass to retain the lead in place if there were no bolts, would be the easiest-best solution. You'd have an encapsulated keel like many other good old boats, from Morgans to Hinckleys, and no problems unless you ground through the 'glass when grounding.