Amsteel or Wire Life Lines?

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:28 pm

The lifelines are weeping (red stains) they came with the boat and didn't look great when I bought the boat 4 years ago. The plan has been to replace them for a few years now and I recognize that it is NOT something that should be put off. What is setting me back is the fact that I have to throw out everything but the pelican hooks when it is about 1/2 inch of wire that is rusting at each crimp. If I get the Johnson hardware for the high tech line life lines, rust is no longer an issue and next time all I need to replace is the line. I recognize that chafe and UV are issues but that is less true now than it was a few years ago.

What is the general opinion of Amsteel( or equivalent) lifelines? There are advantages and disadvantages to each AND if I do go back to wire, do I do the traditional vinyl coated that hides all the corrosion or do I go with the cut a line in your back while you lean against it, bare wire?

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:28 pm

If you go with wire, go with plain UNcoated 1x19 rigging wire.

If you're leaning against them, put some of these on:

image from http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,11662.htm

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:50 pm

That's what I'm changing to, but I can't find pelican hooks I can use with nicro pressed ends around thimbles. I use thimbles up front with line lashings at the pulpit. I want to make a gate just forward of the cockpit, between two stanchions. So far haven't found what I'm looking for- used to have this set up on my old trimaran.

Oh- and I believe the offshore racing fleets have outlawed vinyl covered lifelines. Can't swear to that but you sure see a lot of offshore boats with bare 1 x 19

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:35 am

Charlie,

I'm not sure I can visualize exactly what you mean, but have you tried C. Sherman Johnson (which Lazy Guy referred to above)? You can find their marine catalog online here:

http://www.csjohnson.com/marinecatalog/s00001.htm

They're a good company, in my experience (as I know I've mentioned before).

Rachel

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:46 am

I've been tossing this same debate around in the back of my mind for about a year now.

I've seen a couple of boats with beautifully spliced spectra lifelines. Nice hardware, gates, turnbuckles for adjustment the whole shebang.
Part of me likes that a lot.
But the traditionalist in me likes the old fashioned wire (bare) lifelines.
Also I dont relish having to make 16 splices...

But then with the amsteel/spectra lines, repairs are easy, they're cheaper (a bit) and they feel nicer on your back when you lean against them.

I was thinking of getting some S.S. wire, the Johnson hand crimper and hand crimp fittings and just making my own.

But then Johnson also makes a whole line of really nice lifeline hardware specifically for spliced dyneema lifelines.
And if I had the measurements handy I could sit and splice the line sitting with the cat in front of the fire.
Not a bad way to spend a blustery Pacific Northwet afternoon...

Not sure how this one is going to play out yet...

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:36 am

Thanks Rachel- having too much fun to sleep? You should be here- blowing 28, gusting 35, raining like the next flood. Wind chill is 33 degrees- OUCH for us wimps here on the Texas coast. Well- maybe you should be where you are instead-Grin.

Wish we could have made the weekend with all of you. But tell every one I said Howdy. Chat is gonna be sorta empty tomorrow eh?

Fusto- I already HAVE the nicropress crimper, I have a whole box of take off wire that is perfectly good, but was replaced due to a bend at the end or something. All different sizes. So using bare 1 x 19 is a no brainer for me, once I find the fittings I'm looking for.

But I can understand what you are going through with your thinking, for sure.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:25 am

I just replaced my 6 year-old vinyl-coated wire lifelines with new, uncoated 1x19 SS. Fortunately, I was able to reuse the hardware, other than the threaded stud at each end of the wire, which of course was swaged onto the old wire. But those studs are inexpensive. If your lifelines aren't set up this way, it might be worth having the new ones made so that all the fittings can simply unthread for reuse when wire replacement becomes necessary.

If you need a picture of what I'm talking about, let me know.

I replaced them because the first signs of rust were appearing at the wire ends, plus there was a section to starboard that had been damaged a few years ago when I was T-boned, and which had been bothering me ever since.

I'm sure the old vinyl-coated style is a bit easier on the hands and back, but 1x19 is pretty smooth and dense, and I think the tradeoff for wire that will last much longer is worth it. Not only does the vinyl coating potentially trap moisture and salt that might damage the wire, but you often have no idea of the actual wire condition as a result, since you can't see the wire.

I've no direct experience with synthetic lifelines.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:20 am

Thank you.

While I haven't ruled out the spectra/dyneema lifelines yet, that is a great idea Tim. Select the hardware so that every wire has terminal ends. And Yes, if I do go with wire, I will go with the uncoated.

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:33 pm

We have Spectra (amsteel) lifelines on the Melges 24 and they work really well. No problems with 4 fat guys hiking hard off them, and chafe hasn't been an issue.

Because they worked so well on the Melges I put them on the Swede 55 as a test. Over-all I'm pretty happy with how they worked out. It was around $120 I think for all the line, and an evening splicing them up on the boat. You need to watch out for Chafe, but so far they look good. They do stretch a bit, but as they do that you can just lash them tighter. I used a Shackle on one end and lashed them to the bow pulpit up front.

One of the huge bonuses that I have found is that you can put the Pelican hooks anywhere, and when you let the lines slack you can step over the lifelines anywhere. This makes docking really easy - you don't need to use a specific "gate area".

When folks come aboard I ask them to grab on to the shrouds as opposed to the lifelines/stanchions which saves some wear on them and keeps the bases tight.

I'm happy, with them so far, and the savings was very large over wire and new swages. Splicing Amsteel is really easy and doesn't take more than 5 minutes a completed splice.

Tim Mertinooke · Post by **Tim Mertinooke** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:44 pm

Here are some decent splicing instructions.

http://www.neropes.com/spl_12braideyelockstitch.aspx

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:16 am

CharlieJ wrote:Fusto- I already HAVE the nicropress crimper...

Actually I was thinking of this tool by Johnson:

This tool with Johnsons "hand swage" fittings leave you with an end product very much like machine swaged lifelines, but less expensive, and you can do them yourself.
They also have a nicopress style swage tool but it costs a lot more scratch, which I have a hard time justifying for what is essentially a one time use tool.

Some people have concerns about the safety of the Johnson hand swages, but I cant see how they could be any more failure prone than a nicopressed eye.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:43 am

Yup- that's like mine except mine will swage four different sizes rather than two. I've had it since the late 70s. Rigged a whole trimaran with it. Slow but effective.

Now when I use it here at my shop, I can use air tools- that air rachet SURE speeds things up-grin. I carry it aboard though, along with the wrenches to run it the old way.

What I'm looking for in addition , is end fittings I can do myself, and change out anywhere I am. I refitted the forward ends on two of the life lines, siting at anchor over in Florida. If I go the swaged threaded end route, I'll need to take them somewhere and have them done. Which is tough where I live- no-body anywhere close that can swage. I'd have to go to Houston or Corpus Christi- both 200 mile+ round trips. THAT's the problem I'm having.

Edited-

I just finished my second cup of coffee and re read your post, and mine. I'm a little more awake now.

I missed the fact that those were swagers for the end fittings, rather than nicropress fittings. I'll certainly investigate those tools, particularly the first one- easier to stow aboard.

Thanks

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:55 am

What I don't like about either of those tools is that there is no positive indication that the crimp is complete. I have the electrical crimper that will not open until I have compressed the lug fully. Ninety percent there is not good enough and if I used those tools, I would have either stripped the threads or sheared the head off the first tool and with the second, I probably would have crimped the stud to destruction just to ensure I had it fully crimped.

That does not mean that you can not perform a perfectly good crimp with either or both of those tools. My confidence level for safety lines with me using those tools would be somewhere between nervous and nil.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:15 am

This is a very interesting thread. Timely too, as I'm going to replace my older, coated lifelines just to be sure I don't send family and friends swimming.

I'm leaning towards coated lifelines as I prefer the look and feel of them. Even if I need to replace them every five years to be prudent, I still think that's the way I'm going to go.

fusto wrote:This tool with Johnsons "hand swage" fittings leave you with an end product very much like machine swaged lifelines, but less expensive, and you can do them yourself.

How does the strength of hand swaged fittings compare to those that are machine swaged?

Also, does anyone have any experience with the Hayn Hi-Mod fittings? The aren't swaged, but rather have a compression fitting. One thing that's attractive about them is that they're reusable. They are more expensive, though, and I wonder how they compare to a swaged fitting.

Here are a couple photos from Hayn's instruction page:

Post by **Tim** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:32 am

I've seen the Johnson hand swager in action. It's OK, and makes a lot of sense for replacing a small section or one fitting or something. One of my suppliers will lend out their tool at no cost. The quality of the hand swages is adequate, but not nearly up to snuff with the swages that a quality rigger will provide, though.

Many people are surprised to find that it's often more economical to have a trusted professional rigger make up swaged wire rigging and lifelines. The pros are able to source the materials as such significant discounts (particularly bulk wire) that even with their labor charges, the cost comes out just about the same--and often less--than attempting to do the job yourself.

For me, it's a no-brainer to call up my rigger and have him make up whatever wires I need. I can't do it myself for less--materials always end up costing the same as or more than having my rigger do the complete job--I get a better end result in this case, and can spend my time where it's needed more.

Note that I use a rigger that does great work at reasonable prices, and whom I trust completely. Not all of them are necessarily like that. Your results may vary, but some jobs just make sense to outsource unless one is really hot to trot to do the work themselves regardless of the outcome and expense.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:41 pm

Tim- I certainly can't argue against that- hey- that's how I make my money- from people who pay me to do work on their boat they don't feel confidant, or don't have time, to do themselves.

In fact, I'm in the midst of putting new engine beds in a boat sitting outside the shop right now, for a little one cyl diesel prior to a complete redo of the interior. Right now there isn't one.

But as to the lifelines, in this instance, I - A) Have the wire on hand in much quantity.

And B) Don't have a rigger anywhere close to me, other than myself. It's at least a 200 mile or more round trip to get to one from here, and with the price of fuel, it would be expensive to drive. I could more than likely buy a tool ( or TWO) for the gas costs.

I'll look into the tool and the threaded ends. I already happen to have 4 pelican hooks left over from a previous boat job that have screw ends..

Post by **Tim** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:57 pm

As always, individual circumstances dictate what makes the most sense. Rarely is there ever a cut-and-dried answer that works for everyone. The point is to consider the available options, and make an informed decision based on real information.

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:31 pm

#218 wrote:I'm leaning towards coated lifelines as I prefer the look and feel of them. Even if I need to replace them every five years to be prudent, I still think that's the way I'm going to go.

Keep in mind that for racing the Special Regulations may soon forbid coated wire lifelines.

Also, does anyone have any experience with the Hayn Hi-Mod fittings?

I have used a Hi-Mod terminal on the backstay for my San Juan 21. I like them. I haven't used Norseman or Sta-Lok fittings myself, but everything I've read suggests the Hi-Mods are somewhat better.

I'm with Tim -- have a rigger make up your lifelines, using proper crimping. If I were going to make up my own lifelines, I would much prefer to use mechanical terminals like the Hi-Mods rather than attempting to hand-crimp...

Regards,

Tim A.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:51 am

Just remember... you can't really use the Hayn Hi-Mods for your lifelines unless you are using 1x19 wire which would be really stiff. Normally 7x19 is used.

They may make a mechanical or compression swage fitting for 7x19, but I haven't seen one. Otherwise, this would be a great idea.

I'm also with Tim on getting swaged terminals rather than the nico press fittings. Its not that much more expensive and I get sleep at night.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:16 pm

I'm with Noah on this one.
The splicing work is stupidly easy, and really the only hardware you need to buy are the thimbles.
Making up my cascading backstay last year was by far the easiest splicing work I've ever done.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:28 pm

Ceasar Choppy wrote: I'm also with Tim on getting swaged terminals rather than the nico press fittings. Its not that much more expensive and I get sleep at night.

Why would you not sleep over properly made nicro pressed fittings? They are as strong as any other end connector, made correctly.. Hell- I sailed a 35 foot trimaran for 3 years with galvanized wire and ALL nicropressed fittings on the rigging. Not a hint of a problem.

Many small boat builders use them as a matter of course and almost EVERY beach cat sailing has nicro pressed ends on the rigging- and THEY take a beating.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:55 pm

I am pretty sure nico-press fittings deliver a lower break point than many other fittings out there- plus they are ugly to look at or pass your hand over.

On the other hand, being "less strong" doesn't mean "not strong enough" either so that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. They are pretty easy to do properly which I think is why they are still used so often.

-Britton

kristian · Post by **kristian** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:52 pm

A couple thoughts on lifelines:

Spectra lifelines: I would not put these on a cruising boat, nor any boat that goes offshore. They're great for small racing boats (like said M24, although you can make a case for that being a Hiking Line) , as they're light, strong and easy to replace, but UV and chafe make these the wrong choice for anything else. Chafe especially, as most stanchions aren't chamfered well enough for line, and a surprising amount of gear ends up touching the lifelines during sailing.

Coated 7x7 wire lifelines are no longer allowed for offshore races conducted under ORD regs, and should be considered only if aesthetics win out over longevity and strength. I always steer my customers toward uncovered 1x19 wire, but there are some people that just feel their lifelines should be white. There are so many bad qualities of this stuff, it's amazing that it's still sold. It yellows/cracks, it hides corrosion, and the wire inside is of lower strength than comparably sized 1x19, not to mention that the typical small boat lifeline has a nice big white cover hiding fairly small (3/32", 1/8") wire. I have a giant pile of old white (yellow?) coated lifelines destined for the scrap yard. Every once in a while I want to make sure I'm right in preaching the evils of the stuff, and I peel back the coating near an end. 9 times out of 10 it's got pretty bad corrosion, even though the coating doesn't show it. To be fair, it's rare that one of these (or any lifeline) breaks, but every time I've head of a lifeline breaking it's been this stuff.

I was once on an boat which had oddball lifelines made of _un_covered 7x7 wire, and experienced the bizarre and irritating phenomenon of the lifelines tearing dozens of hairs of my legs as I walked by. I don't even know why/where they got those lifelines, but they sure did suck.

1x19 wire is the strongest of the typical yachting wire ropes. I really like it for lifelines as it doesn't have the major drawbacks of vinyl coated wire. I like to spec this in accordance with ORC, and use 5/32" under 40', 3/16 over and 1/4" for the big boys. Also, this wire is generally cheaper than coated wire of the same wire diameter.

Of the various ways to attach lifelines, I'd recommend machine swaged ends. A nico press is a strength compromise, lousy to look at and unless covered (which promotes corrosion) will try and snag everything in sight. I have no first hand experience with the hand crimp fittings, but everything I know about them says they're inferior to a machine swage. The only second hand info I have on these is from someone who did his own, had one pull out under hand tension, and then came to have everything machine swaged. I love mechanical terminations, but really feel like its a waste of money to use these on lifelines.

Ideally, for a cruising/offshore boat, I would spec out 1x19 wire of the appropriate diameter, toggle jaws at the front end, and a lifeline turnbuckle at the back. Gates add some hardware, like interlocking gate eyes and pelican hooks. Please don't use snap hooks over the over-center type latches.

For fittings I like to use Hayn lifeline hardware. I'd advise anyone to do this to talk to a local rigger and see what the prices are like compared to a DIY solution, it typically makes $ sense to pay for mech swages.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:20 pm

Kristian,

I've always been under the impression that 1x19 was too stiff for lifelines and that 7x19 was preferred. Am I wrong on that?

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:46 pm

I'm not Kristian, but why do you need your lifelines to be flexible? I'm using 1x19 and it seems fine to me.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:08 pm

Agreed. My new uncoated lifelines are 1x19 and don't need to be any more flexible than they are. In fact, I can coil them into roughly the same diameter as the old coated 7x7 wires that I took off.

BTW, it's 7x7 wire, not 7x19.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:49 pm

Tim wrote: BTW, it's 7x7 wire, not 7x19.

From my limited experience, I've seen 7x19 often used for lifelines because it is more flexible than 1x19, although less flexible than 7x7.

Stanchions are rarely in a straight line and sometimes the hull curves severely. Sometimes they may be terminated to the deck instead of a stern pulpit like on the Renegade... which is a pretty serious bend.

JetStream · Post by **JetStream** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:59 pm

Since 1 x 19 has more than adequate flexibility, it would certainly be the one to use. If you use 7 x 19, the individual strands are so tiny that it doesn't take a lot of abuse to break a strand and then you've got a nice little cut on your hand when you grab the lifeline.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:31 pm

I just did a little looking and found that 7x7 and 7x19 are pretty close to each other on the flexibility scale and in construction . Nevertheless, I don't need to turn this into an academic debate-- I was just surprised to see folks using 1x19 wire for lifelines.

kristian · Post by **kristian** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:15 pm

1x19 is plenty flexy for lifelines. 5/32" 1x19 coils onto pretty small spooks just fine, with no kinking or loss of strength. Think about upper shrouds passing over a spreader tip and making that sharp bend. Or 2 legged backtay adjusters (like j22).

The only thing it won't do is replace a gate eye. With 7x19 wire I've seen people make the fixed end of a gate by putting (ugh) cable clamps on either side of the stanchion. From the sound of it, I don't think anyone here would do that. It's really ugly/clumsy.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:05 am

Ceasar Choppy wrote:
Tim wrote: BTW, it's 7x7 wire, not 7x19.
From my limited experience, I've seen 7x19 often used for lifelines because it is more flexible than 1x19, although less flexible than 7x7.

I stand corrected and now better informed.

dougcn · Post by **dougcn** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:25 pm

I replaced my old wire lifelines with Amsteel last spring and have been thoroughly pleased with the result. I was on the fence between bare wire and amsteel. I opted for the amsteel because once I purchased the thimbles and Johnson fittings, the only recurring cost would be that of the line. Since that would be considerably less that replacing wire and the associated 1-use fittings, I figured I'd be more inclined to replace the line more frequently or if I had any doubts as to it's integrity. I'm also a big fan of being able to easily replace it myself.

Here's my assessment after the first year:
- The installation was VERY easy. The slicing was simple and fast. The only trick is that it does shorted the line as you finish the splice. After the first spice, you'll get a sense for how much. So my recommendation is to cut and splice each section of linelines one at a line. Start with a short section first until you get the hang of it.

- The Johnson fittings a great. Highly recommended.

- West Marine sells sailmakers thimbles (closed vs. slip). These work very well.

- The end result looks great and is not uncomforable to brush against like bare wire.

- Durability. After the first season, there was no noticable wear, even at the stancions. I'm watching this closely. From all I've read, the coated Amsteel will provide visual clues of UV degradation (loss of coating, and fuzzing). This far, no signs.

So, thus far, I think they're great.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:27 pm

dougcn,

What size boat did you use them on. It appears that many feel that Amsteel is fine on a J-24, or one of the high tech speed rocket melges or Mum but not on a cruiser. The very reasons you state are the very reasons I am considering Amsteel. I am also considering purposely making the lines short and lashing the final foot or so in order to keep them tight as the line stretches.

Thanks
Dennis

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:01 am

Pictures please!!!

dougcn · Post by **dougcn** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:51 am

I've got a Pearson 386. The configuration of the amsteel lifelines is as follows:

Post side:
Single, continuous line (1/4" Amsteel) from bow pulpit to stern pushpit. One sailmaker's thimble spliced into each end. Lashed to pulpit/pushpit using 1/8" Amsteel for lashings. Eye spliced using Sampson slicing instructions and lock stiched. Lashings also locked with stiching.

Stbd side:.
Three sections of 1/4" Amsteel:
Bow to Gate: Sailmaker's eye in splice on forward end, lashed to pulpit. Aft end has soft eye passed over Johnson Double Eye gate fitting on stanchion.
Gate Section: Johnson Pelican hook and Johnson double eye gate fitting on stancion. Soft eyes spliced in each end of gate section of amsteel.
Gate to Stern: Soft eye passed over gate eye. Sailmaker's eye spiced into aft end and lashed with 1/8" amsteel. All lock stiched.

The foward lashing are about 6"long. The aft are about 10". I left them long to account for stretch and creep. I pre-stretched them to remove as much constructional stretch as possible by hooking one end to a bow cleat and pulling the other with a winch. Over the course of the first season, I never had to readjust to account for sag, because there really wasn't much.

Attahed are photos.

Doug

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:24 am

Nice! do you plan on doing the lowers?

dougcn · Post by **dougcn** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:32 am

Thanks! Oddly, this boat never had them. I've considered adding a set of lowers, but it becomes a problem once you reach the cockpit. The straight line path between the stancion and the pushpit would put the lower lifeline right through the center of the winch. So, my option is either to

a) stay as is, with only a single, upper lifeline
b) Relocate the winch substantially forward on the cockpit coaming (which would then create a trip hazard when going forward from the cockpit onto the deck
c) Terminate the lifeline at the stancion forward of the winch. This would probably look silly since the double lifeline would end at the cockpit. Also, it wouldn't really serve much purpose, because the strength of a lifeline is far more dependent on how the ends are anchored rather than the strength of the lifeline itself.

So, I opten to leave it with only a single upper line.

Doug

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:11 pm

The winch being in the way of the lower lifeline is a common problem so I'm told. Personally, I've never had lower lifelines, but will be getting them with new stanchions this year.

The most common solution I've heard is to elevate the winches on winch pads.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:13 pm

Thanks for the report and photos, Doug. And welcome to the forum!

I think with a photo-report-essay as your second post, you should definitely stick around ;^)

Rachel

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:05 pm

Ceasar wrote:The winch being in the way of the lower lifeline is a common problem so I'm told.

I find it looks close, but doesn't interfere with anything, as long as you run the sheets underneath.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:22 pm

Really? You can swing a 12" handle on that winch?

One good pic begets another.... please show us more of that cockpit! What's going on at the union of the locker lid and the bridge deck?
Is the whole thing built-up somehow, or is that just a paint scheme?

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:52 am

I use 1/4" Amsteel for my jacklines, and they need to be tightend now and then. I'm concerned about chafe where the lines go through the stanchions.

My present lifelines are coated stainless with snap-on cable covers to hide the yellowing/rust of the lifelines.
This was the way the boat came, and they are overdue for replacement.

I'm concerned about chafe where the lines go through the stanchions, and am thinking of using bare stainless with snap-on cable covers for a bit of padding, which still allows for easy inspection.

Figment wrote:Really? You can swing a 12" handle on that winch?

I'm a back-and-forth rachet man, but I can still twirl the handle 360 if needed :-)

The locker lid~bridge deck swirl is the end of the scupper around the lid.

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:22 am

What if you ran the amsteel through some polyethelene tubing (like for an icemaker) at the chafe points??