Hey Gang, Wind-Rose has the early model A4 with the manual fuel pump. I changed the cartridge fuel filter (an addition to the orginal system) and emptied and cleaned the sediment bowl.
I turned the fuel cock back to the on position and started pumping to fill the system back up with gasoline. The fuel in the line between the cartridge filter and the sediment bowl immediately was drawn into the sediment bowl.
However after several more pumps no more fuel is being drawn into the sediment bowl... I am thinking it is simply a matter of filling up the cartridge filter with gas from an outside source and continuing to use the manual pump... is this correct? How will I know when all the air is out of the system? Seems I have lost the prime on the system and am having trouble getting it back.
Thanks.
A4 spring start up
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windrose
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A4 spring start up
s/v Wind-rose
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
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Figment
- Damned Because It's All Connected
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You're just using the little flick-flick-flick manual lever on the pump?
I know he wasn't referring to an A4 at the time, but if I may quote our dear Robert the Gray.... "flicking the little lever to get the fuel all the way through the filter to the injectors is like jacking off a rat, pointless and it leaves me unsatisfied with scratched and smelly hands"
Where is this cartridge filter? Is it positioned such that it would defeat a siphon from the tank to the pump?
I think you're on the right track, fill the filter to aid the re-priming of the system. Leave the sediment bowl cracked open a bit, open the fuel valve, and wait for fuel to spill from the bowl. Messy, but then you KNOW it's primed to the pump housing. Only then would I bother with the flicker lever.
I know he wasn't referring to an A4 at the time, but if I may quote our dear Robert the Gray.... "flicking the little lever to get the fuel all the way through the filter to the injectors is like jacking off a rat, pointless and it leaves me unsatisfied with scratched and smelly hands"
Where is this cartridge filter? Is it positioned such that it would defeat a siphon from the tank to the pump?
I think you're on the right track, fill the filter to aid the re-priming of the system. Leave the sediment bowl cracked open a bit, open the fuel valve, and wait for fuel to spill from the bowl. Messy, but then you KNOW it's primed to the pump housing. Only then would I bother with the flicker lever.
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windrose
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Fig, thank you so much.... I got a big laugh from your reply and am feeling better about things. I have been over at the yard on my knees f&^%$#$ with it all day. I am not only bent but extremely frustrated and needed a laugh.
The cartridge filter is about 15" upstream of the sediment bowl, I can feel just a slight amount of suction at the cartridge when I pump the lever but no fuel makes it to the sediment bowl. I had decided it was the diaphragm in the pump, but I don't smell any gas in the oil from the dipstick which is supposed to be the marker if the diaphragm is leaking, I started trying to take off the pump, but it is impossible without removing the carb. I had resigned myself to sulking over a few brews and learning more about removing the carb before I pushed forward. Then.... thought I'd check here just in case and not only did I get a laugh, I think I got a solution.... because I have good flow to the cartridge when I open the fuel cock.
Thanks again, I'll keep you posted
Ang
The cartridge filter is about 15" upstream of the sediment bowl, I can feel just a slight amount of suction at the cartridge when I pump the lever but no fuel makes it to the sediment bowl. I had decided it was the diaphragm in the pump, but I don't smell any gas in the oil from the dipstick which is supposed to be the marker if the diaphragm is leaking, I started trying to take off the pump, but it is impossible without removing the carb. I had resigned myself to sulking over a few brews and learning more about removing the carb before I pushed forward. Then.... thought I'd check here just in case and not only did I get a laugh, I think I got a solution.... because I have good flow to the cartridge when I open the fuel cock.
Thanks again, I'll keep you posted
Ang
s/v Wind-rose
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
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windrose
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Fig, worked like a champ, took maybe 5 mintues-- clean up and all. Think I am ready, changed the point, plugs, condensor, rotor button, distributor cap, fuel filter, greased the water pump and cleaned the spark arrestor.
We have a date with the travel lift in the A.M.---- let the good times roll.
Going to stay at the dock a day, run the engine, bend the sails and head north 30 miles or so on Friday. I'm so excited, I can't wait.
Thanks for the help.
See you on the water.
Ang
We have a date with the travel lift in the A.M.---- let the good times roll.
Going to stay at the dock a day, run the engine, bend the sails and head north 30 miles or so on Friday. I'm so excited, I can't wait.
Thanks for the help.
See you on the water.
Ang
s/v Wind-rose
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
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windrose
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Once I get across LOng DoNg shoals, aka as Long Point Shoal .... things will be fine... my biggest concern is getting out to open water and then I just let her strectch her legs.... I already plan to fly the #3 as a head sail, it is 110.. and a nice balance.
The last time we launched from there, two marks were missing, thanks to Isabel, and we went way south to make sure we were clear.
The last time we launched from there, two marks were missing, thanks to Isabel, and we went way south to make sure we were clear.
s/v Wind-rose
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
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windrose
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Couldn't get the engine to start.... lots of water in the tank, wound up draining a couple gallons of gas out. Got her started but the choke cable was corroded so I oiled that up really good and have her running but she is still just a tad rough at idle.
What is the proper way for me to adjust the choke? Making forward progress but I am tired.... unsatisfied with scratched and smelly hands.
Thanks,
Ang
What is the proper way for me to adjust the choke? Making forward progress but I am tired.... unsatisfied with scratched and smelly hands.
Thanks,
Ang
s/v Wind-rose
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
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Quetzalsailor
- Master of the Arcane
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Been there, done that.
Y'gotta' get the tank, the lines and the carburetor clean. Our former boat, a '72 Morgan 27, had/has a cylindrical monel tank. Dad used to dissassemble the fittings, loosen the hangar straps and rotate it to be able to dump the last dregs out. He had a great deal of trouble over the years with jellied gas, water and sludge. He finally installed a Racor filter, since the A4's little glass bowl and ceramic filter was so readily overpowered. When I took the boat over, I had several years of poorer performance, including gummy valves, before pulling the engine and having the upper end reworked.
With the engine out, I replaced the beds, and the tank suspension stuff, added an electric fuel pump, replaced all the lines, and of course scrubbed the tank clean. I previously had replaced the ignition system with the Indigo Electronics stuff which was excellent. I had rebuilt the carburetor which meant that I had the choke linkage all apart and was able to replace all those tiny, miserable buggered fastenings. I then had four years of flawless performance before we moved on.
I see (thought I saw) that you are sailing out of the West River. Go to Marine Engines Unlimited in Galesville; they are wizards with the A4. They did my engine's R&R. They got us home two years before when the valves were stuck open.
Y'gotta' get the tank, the lines and the carburetor clean. Our former boat, a '72 Morgan 27, had/has a cylindrical monel tank. Dad used to dissassemble the fittings, loosen the hangar straps and rotate it to be able to dump the last dregs out. He had a great deal of trouble over the years with jellied gas, water and sludge. He finally installed a Racor filter, since the A4's little glass bowl and ceramic filter was so readily overpowered. When I took the boat over, I had several years of poorer performance, including gummy valves, before pulling the engine and having the upper end reworked.
With the engine out, I replaced the beds, and the tank suspension stuff, added an electric fuel pump, replaced all the lines, and of course scrubbed the tank clean. I previously had replaced the ignition system with the Indigo Electronics stuff which was excellent. I had rebuilt the carburetor which meant that I had the choke linkage all apart and was able to replace all those tiny, miserable buggered fastenings. I then had four years of flawless performance before we moved on.
I see (thought I saw) that you are sailing out of the West River. Go to Marine Engines Unlimited in Galesville; they are wizards with the A4. They did my engine's R&R. They got us home two years before when the valves were stuck open.
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Figment
- Damned Because It's All Connected
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- Boat Name: Triton
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The choke should need no "adjustment". pull cable to close the choke while starting (to help the engine suck up a mouthful of fuel), but after a few seconds of running the choke should be set wide open. If you find you need a bit of choke to keep the engine running, that means that the engine isn't capable of sucking fuel at the appropriate rate on its own because some blockage exists in the fuel system.
If it runs fine at speed but falters at idle, I suspect a clogged idle jet.
You had water in the tank? Ethanol fuel or MTBE? If ethanol, then you absolutely have a clogged jet. Looks like you're going to figure out how to dismount that carburator after all. I'd also want to drain the fuel tank, slosh a few gallons of new fuel around, and drain again to ensure that all of the ethanol/water mix is gone.
I feel that Triton engine work is best done in small doses, if possible. Hunching over that thing for extended periods of time just drains one's will to live, silly little things become immensely frustrating,and soon that "last little bit" that will just take another ten minutes becomes two hours.
If it runs fine at speed but falters at idle, I suspect a clogged idle jet.
You had water in the tank? Ethanol fuel or MTBE? If ethanol, then you absolutely have a clogged jet. Looks like you're going to figure out how to dismount that carburator after all. I'd also want to drain the fuel tank, slosh a few gallons of new fuel around, and drain again to ensure that all of the ethanol/water mix is gone.
I feel that Triton engine work is best done in small doses, if possible. Hunching over that thing for extended periods of time just drains one's will to live, silly little things become immensely frustrating,and soon that "last little bit" that will just take another ten minutes becomes two hours.
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bcooke
- Master of the Arcane
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Ditto what Mike said. There isn't any adjustment on the choke other than making sure it goes all the way when you pull/push on the cable. If the cable is out of adjustment then the cable stops before the choke gets to where it needs to go. That should be a quick check/fix. And you are right to check that first.
And just to add a bit of nerdiness to the discussion...
The choke adds resistance to the airflow coming into the engine. The throttle plate does exactly the same thing. The difference is that the fuel nozzle is positioned at the throttle plate and is calibrated to it. The theory is that the resistance causes a change of pressure. Because the air is restricted past the choke/throttle plate, the pressure drops (we can get more into the physics if you really want to) The fuel is normally being pressured by normal air pressure that we all live in. The fuel nozzle is in this zone of lower pressure so the higher outside pressure pushes the fuel into the lower pressure area -out through the fuel nozzle and into the cylinders.
Now the choke is a temporary measure because the fuel behaves differently at operating versus non operating temperatures (hot and cold). The choke is used to compensate for this change until the engine gets up to temperature which is what the throttle plate and fuel nozzle is calibrated for. The choke adds an extra level of restriction which lowers the air pressure even further - it creates a higher difference between normal air pressure that the fuel sits in and the pressure in the intake system leading to the cylinders. The higher pressure differential pushes a higher amount of fuel through nozzle which the engine needs until it warms up.
The choke adds an extra level of restriction that creates a higher differential of pressure which leads to more fuel being drawn into the engine during the time when the engine is first started and cold until it warms up a bit.
That was supposed to be a simple explanation but I think I failed my task...
A carb overhaul is a relatively quick and painless operation on an A4 so if you can get the carb off the engine and onto the benchtop easily then I would do it. And I would definitely look into a large external water strainer and filter assembly. Not that you really want to be redesigning the system right at launch time of course.
-Britton
And just to add a bit of nerdiness to the discussion...
The choke adds resistance to the airflow coming into the engine. The throttle plate does exactly the same thing. The difference is that the fuel nozzle is positioned at the throttle plate and is calibrated to it. The theory is that the resistance causes a change of pressure. Because the air is restricted past the choke/throttle plate, the pressure drops (we can get more into the physics if you really want to) The fuel is normally being pressured by normal air pressure that we all live in. The fuel nozzle is in this zone of lower pressure so the higher outside pressure pushes the fuel into the lower pressure area -out through the fuel nozzle and into the cylinders.
Now the choke is a temporary measure because the fuel behaves differently at operating versus non operating temperatures (hot and cold). The choke is used to compensate for this change until the engine gets up to temperature which is what the throttle plate and fuel nozzle is calibrated for. The choke adds an extra level of restriction which lowers the air pressure even further - it creates a higher difference between normal air pressure that the fuel sits in and the pressure in the intake system leading to the cylinders. The higher pressure differential pushes a higher amount of fuel through nozzle which the engine needs until it warms up.
The choke adds an extra level of restriction that creates a higher differential of pressure which leads to more fuel being drawn into the engine during the time when the engine is first started and cold until it warms up a bit.
That was supposed to be a simple explanation but I think I failed my task...
A carb overhaul is a relatively quick and painless operation on an A4 so if you can get the carb off the engine and onto the benchtop easily then I would do it. And I would definitely look into a large external water strainer and filter assembly. Not that you really want to be redesigning the system right at launch time of course.
-Britton
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windrose
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Thanks Guys, the choke cable was out of adjustment from some corrosion right were the push rod goes thru the cockpit wall. I got all that sprayed down good with WD-40 last night and this morning took off the spark arrestor and adjusted the cable to that the choke valve was all the way closed when the pull rod was pulled out.
I put about a cup of isoproply alcohol in the gas and gave the old gal a crank. She started right up, ran her up to warmed up temp- shut her down and screwed the idle adjustment all the way into the seat and backed it off 1 1/2 turns (as per Moyers) and she is purring like a happy kitten.
I'm feeling pretty good about things. I'm headed over now to bend on her main and give the wasp nest I found in the lazerette a blessing. It's really nice here today, in the 70's with 10-15 knots. Nice, very nice.
BTW, there are two Tritons within 40 yards either direction from me, s/v Happy Hour and s/v Rachel Morgan both are rough as a cobb but you can tell they are used and loved--makes Wind-Rose look like a gem :-), which when compared to Tim, Nathan's, Britton's et al looks like the red headed step child. Guess it is all in the company we keep. HA!
Thanks for all the help and support. Tim you sure have a nice place here with a great group of folks.
Ang
I put about a cup of isoproply alcohol in the gas and gave the old gal a crank. She started right up, ran her up to warmed up temp- shut her down and screwed the idle adjustment all the way into the seat and backed it off 1 1/2 turns (as per Moyers) and she is purring like a happy kitten.
I'm feeling pretty good about things. I'm headed over now to bend on her main and give the wasp nest I found in the lazerette a blessing. It's really nice here today, in the 70's with 10-15 knots. Nice, very nice.
BTW, there are two Tritons within 40 yards either direction from me, s/v Happy Hour and s/v Rachel Morgan both are rough as a cobb but you can tell they are used and loved--makes Wind-Rose look like a gem :-), which when compared to Tim, Nathan's, Britton's et al looks like the red headed step child. Guess it is all in the company we keep. HA!
Thanks for all the help and support. Tim you sure have a nice place here with a great group of folks.
Ang
s/v Wind-rose
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
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jhenson
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Angie,
Wind-Rose is a beauty! You have done some nice work on her. I know of a 9 year old who was delighted to see her and holds her in high reguard. Thanks for the tour! We enjoyed seeing her and meeting you. I hope we didn't interrupt your prelaunch activities though.
Here is a picture of her as we were about to leave HHN Saturday afternoon.
Joe
Wind-Rose is a beauty! You have done some nice work on her. I know of a 9 year old who was delighted to see her and holds her in high reguard. Thanks for the tour! We enjoyed seeing her and meeting you. I hope we didn't interrupt your prelaunch activities though.
Here is a picture of her as we were about to leave HHN Saturday afternoon.
Joe
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bcooke
- Master of the Arcane
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- Boat Name: Jenny
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Yeah, I can see now that Windrose is way ahead of me :-)
I am glad you are happy with my picture Nathan. Maybe I shouldn't admit that I was lazy and simply used a photo I have posted somewhere else around this forum. The photo was taken last winter (note the snow on the deck) and the decks have had some small incomplete patches added in, lots of ground-through-the-gelcoat spots and a thick layer of dust overall. I am just waiting for the spring launching season to finish up before pulling the remaining tarp and letting the dust blow off. While I was tempted this week, there are three boats right next to me that are freshly cleaned and varnished and would probably not be happy to share my dust.
Come to think of it, that picture is from the winter before - about 18 months ago.
Mike, next year why don't you and I sail to the Chesapeake in the fall? We could be the parade that travels to meet all the other Tritons on the East Coast. Summer in Maine, Fall in the Bay, Winter in Florida Keys - sounds like a great way to celebrate the 50th anniversary!
-Britton
I am glad you are happy with my picture Nathan. Maybe I shouldn't admit that I was lazy and simply used a photo I have posted somewhere else around this forum. The photo was taken last winter (note the snow on the deck) and the decks have had some small incomplete patches added in, lots of ground-through-the-gelcoat spots and a thick layer of dust overall. I am just waiting for the spring launching season to finish up before pulling the remaining tarp and letting the dust blow off. While I was tempted this week, there are three boats right next to me that are freshly cleaned and varnished and would probably not be happy to share my dust.
Come to think of it, that picture is from the winter before - about 18 months ago.
Mike, next year why don't you and I sail to the Chesapeake in the fall? We could be the parade that travels to meet all the other Tritons on the East Coast. Summer in Maine, Fall in the Bay, Winter in Florida Keys - sounds like a great way to celebrate the 50th anniversary!
-Britton
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dasein668
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Well, if you've got your boat in Maine next summer, Tim and I briefly discussed the idea that next summer would be a good time to have a downeast cruise. I could express the boat to, say, Winter Harbor and we could meet there to get ready to head to points east...
So, git 'er done!
So, git 'er done!
Nathan
dasein668.com
dasein668.com
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dasein668
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I did notice that, actually, but I'm trying to encourage proper behavior, you know? Kind of like training a dog: Positive Reinforcement Training. ;-Pbcooke wrote:I am glad you are happy with my picture Nathan. Maybe I shouldn't admit that I was lazy and simply used a photo I have posted somewhere else around this forum
Nathan
dasein668.com
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windrose
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Thanks Joe, you are very kind. The pleasure was mine. How exciting to have a 9 year old that tells about "his" boat project and reads Cruising World on the bus..... we are all green with envy.
We had a great run up the Bay, we were having so much fun we ran on up another 10 miles or so and had to beat back.... made for late getting here.
We had a grand day, the old motor ran great when we needed her to catch the mooring and then we had a building breeze pushing us into her new slip at low tide and we simply kept bumping her and eased our way in.... it was one of those days you live for.
AHH!
We had a great run up the Bay, we were having so much fun we ran on up another 10 miles or so and had to beat back.... made for late getting here.
We had a grand day, the old motor ran great when we needed her to catch the mooring and then we had a building breeze pushing us into her new slip at low tide and we simply kept bumping her and eased our way in.... it was one of those days you live for.
AHH!
s/v Wind-rose
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
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windrose
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We were late enough our friends had started to get anxious and when we finally pulled up into South Creek they (6 folks from my neighborhood) were there to see us in, they were as proud of the old gal as I am---or at least close--- and happy to know we were here.
It was all very SWEET! a grand day.
I celebrated with a great Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout--- and it was GOOD.
It was all very SWEET! a grand day.
I celebrated with a great Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout--- and it was GOOD.
s/v Wind-rose
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Pearson Triton #215
West River, Chesapeake Bay
Sounds great, Ang! Whoo hoo!
Glad to hear you got the A-4 running sweetly. (You should have heard the things she was saying about it when I was there to pick up the A/C -- of course that was directly after the long, frustrating day working on it that was mentioned above. Scratched hands, etc.)
Windrose sure looks pretty in the photo; next time I'll have to show up during daylight hours.
R.
Glad to hear you got the A-4 running sweetly. (You should have heard the things she was saying about it when I was there to pick up the A/C -- of course that was directly after the long, frustrating day working on it that was mentioned above. Scratched hands, etc.)
Windrose sure looks pretty in the photo; next time I'll have to show up during daylight hours.
R.