wax and varnish (or silicone contamination)
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- Deck Grunge Scrubber
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wax and varnish (or silicone contamination)
Hi Tim and group,
Been offline for awhile but now that the marina we're at has wireless access I hope to keep up better with things going on here.
Maybe you or one of your group can point me in the right direction regarding revarnishing interior teak that has had 20 years of wax, grease and polishes rubbed into the previous varnish. The old varnish probably was never recoated and has started to chip and discolor and generally break down. About half the interior of this 49-foot boat filled with large areas of solid teak stavings, trim and veneers needs stripping and the rest a light sanding and recoating. Problem seems to be that the previous owners usd a lot of wax or furniture polish and rubbed it into the varnish even where the varnish was chipping so that now the wax is driven deep into the pores of the wood. I've tried removing it with various thinners, auto dewaxer (naptha), xylene, alcohol and for areas already stripped, acetone. Still, when I apply the new varnish I get what we call "fish eyes" when painting cars with surfaces contaminated by wax. The paint (or varnish) pulls away like you're trying to paint a candle.
We're doing everything we can to remove the wax before sanding or scraping so as not to drive the wax deeper or spread it around. Then cleaning it again prior to applying varnish. I don't recall this problem mentioned much in varnish books and articles I've read but don't think I'm the first to have this problem. We're using Epiphanes gloss, woodfinish gloss and rubbed effect. Tried other types and brands in test areas and same result. I wonder if there is a type of "sealer" of some type that is more wax tolerant to use as a base coat?
If any of your group has an idea or knows of a particular forum I might get an answer, please let me know.
Thanks
James
#384 Atom
Been offline for awhile but now that the marina we're at has wireless access I hope to keep up better with things going on here.
Maybe you or one of your group can point me in the right direction regarding revarnishing interior teak that has had 20 years of wax, grease and polishes rubbed into the previous varnish. The old varnish probably was never recoated and has started to chip and discolor and generally break down. About half the interior of this 49-foot boat filled with large areas of solid teak stavings, trim and veneers needs stripping and the rest a light sanding and recoating. Problem seems to be that the previous owners usd a lot of wax or furniture polish and rubbed it into the varnish even where the varnish was chipping so that now the wax is driven deep into the pores of the wood. I've tried removing it with various thinners, auto dewaxer (naptha), xylene, alcohol and for areas already stripped, acetone. Still, when I apply the new varnish I get what we call "fish eyes" when painting cars with surfaces contaminated by wax. The paint (or varnish) pulls away like you're trying to paint a candle.
We're doing everything we can to remove the wax before sanding or scraping so as not to drive the wax deeper or spread it around. Then cleaning it again prior to applying varnish. I don't recall this problem mentioned much in varnish books and articles I've read but don't think I'm the first to have this problem. We're using Epiphanes gloss, woodfinish gloss and rubbed effect. Tried other types and brands in test areas and same result. I wonder if there is a type of "sealer" of some type that is more wax tolerant to use as a base coat?
If any of your group has an idea or knows of a particular forum I might get an answer, please let me know.
Thanks
James
#384 Atom
Last edited by James384 on Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Boateg
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I might try the wooden boat forum, if you don't get any useful info here. I know that I don't have any useful info for you, unfortunately.
Wooden Boat Forum
Good luck!
Wooden Boat Forum
Good luck!
Nathan
dasein668.com
dasein668.com
- Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
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Hi James,
Wow, that sounds like a tough problem. I am sure, however, that you're not the first to encounter that issue. That said, I haven't experienced contamination of that degree myself; marginal contamination that causes fisheyes can usually be removed easily enough once you fisheye the first time, but in your case, nothing seems to be working.
We have a pro furniture guy here (Charlie), and with luck he'll chime in with some words of wisdom that will help.
Unfortunately, beyond trying all the solvents that you have, I'm not sure what else to suggest. Mechanical scraping with a cabinet scraper? Since the contamination is so bad, it seems you have little to lose.
Wow, that sounds like a tough problem. I am sure, however, that you're not the first to encounter that issue. That said, I haven't experienced contamination of that degree myself; marginal contamination that causes fisheyes can usually be removed easily enough once you fisheye the first time, but in your case, nothing seems to be working.
We have a pro furniture guy here (Charlie), and with luck he'll chime in with some words of wisdom that will help.
Unfortunately, beyond trying all the solvents that you have, I'm not sure what else to suggest. Mechanical scraping with a cabinet scraper? Since the contamination is so bad, it seems you have little to lose.
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Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
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- Almost a Finish Carpenter
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I was told by an expert on turn of the century Arts&Crafts (Stickley ect.) furniture that household furniture polish contains silicon and can cause great difficulty with a future finish adhering to a wooden surface. Perhaps this is contributing to your problem.
Jimmy Small
Jimmy Small
Last edited by Challenger949L on Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Almost a Finish Carpenter
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wax and varnish
Hi James.
Obviously the best way is to remove the waxes etc, but if anyone has ever used a furniture polish containing silicon, or tried to brighten things up with armorall there will be silicon contamination which you may not be able to remove without removing a lot of wood along with it.
There is a product available at auto body supliers called "Smoothy". (I'm not sure about the spelling.) This is a fish eye preventer that you add in very small amounts to the paint or clearcoat which effectively makes the paint compatable with waxes, oils and silicon. I'm not sure HOW it works, but I have used it when nothing else would work. Most auto painters will tell you it's a last resort, and the young ones will roll their eyes at the mention of it but you will find a can of it in almost every painters private stash. The disadvantage seems to be that it will make recoat very difficult without using it again. It may well cotain silicon itself, I don't know.
As an after thought, Ski tuners use a very powerfull wax remover if you are able to obtain some, and tire repair shops use a buffing solution wich is a strong wax remover. The one I have used is made by Bowes.
Good Luck, I love teak.
Let us know what you find works in the end.
Feetup
"Aquappella" US 25
Obviously the best way is to remove the waxes etc, but if anyone has ever used a furniture polish containing silicon, or tried to brighten things up with armorall there will be silicon contamination which you may not be able to remove without removing a lot of wood along with it.
There is a product available at auto body supliers called "Smoothy". (I'm not sure about the spelling.) This is a fish eye preventer that you add in very small amounts to the paint or clearcoat which effectively makes the paint compatable with waxes, oils and silicon. I'm not sure HOW it works, but I have used it when nothing else would work. Most auto painters will tell you it's a last resort, and the young ones will roll their eyes at the mention of it but you will find a can of it in almost every painters private stash. The disadvantage seems to be that it will make recoat very difficult without using it again. It may well cotain silicon itself, I don't know.
As an after thought, Ski tuners use a very powerfull wax remover if you are able to obtain some, and tire repair shops use a buffing solution wich is a strong wax remover. The one I have used is made by Bowes.
Good Luck, I love teak.
Let us know what you find works in the end.
Feetup
"Aquappella" US 25
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- Skilled Systems Installer
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This is just a shot in the dark here, however, I'll mention it. Paint/varnish strippers frequently contain wax. The idea is that once the stripper is applied, the wax floats to the surface to slow down the evaporation of the stripper. Most stripper instructions call for "neutralizing" the stripper with either water or mineral spirits. The ones that call for neutralizing with water have a detergent in them that will remove the surface layer of wax.
I'm going to guess that if it is wax in your case, the wax has penetrated deep into the grain of the wood. Sanding will probably only drive the wax in deeper. As a test, maybe try a little stripper in an area. Let it sit for a while, scrape the access of, and try neutralizing it with water or mineral spirits. The stripper will hopefully float the wax to the surface, where neutralizing will remove it.
I don't think you will need a real powerful stripper here as you are only using it to float the wax to the surface. If you have some stripper give it a try. If not, some water based stuff may be good stuff to use in the interior of a boat, as it doesn't give off a lot of fumes. I have succesfully used a water based Circa 1850 stripper. Off the top of my head, I can't think of the name, however I believe that it is the only water based stripper they make.
I'm going to guess that if it is wax in your case, the wax has penetrated deep into the grain of the wood. Sanding will probably only drive the wax in deeper. As a test, maybe try a little stripper in an area. Let it sit for a while, scrape the access of, and try neutralizing it with water or mineral spirits. The stripper will hopefully float the wax to the surface, where neutralizing will remove it.
I don't think you will need a real powerful stripper here as you are only using it to float the wax to the surface. If you have some stripper give it a try. If not, some water based stuff may be good stuff to use in the interior of a boat, as it doesn't give off a lot of fumes. I have succesfully used a water based Circa 1850 stripper. Off the top of my head, I can't think of the name, however I believe that it is the only water based stripper they make.
Rick
Summer's Dawn
24 San Juan #380
Summer's Dawn
24 San Juan #380
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- Rough Carpentry Apprentice
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Silicone is evil
I agree that one of the 'miracle' polishes that probably seemed liek a good idea to someone over the years probably contained silicone.
Silicone, in all it's forms, applied to fiberglass or wood is pure evil and has no place on a boat..... (ok, maybe enging gaskets).
I have had some luck with coating wood with epoxy and varnishing over that. The finished product looks just like varnished wood, but is a little tougher. If the silicone oil is heavyly in the wood, it will just fish eye the epoxy also, but you might have better luck since the epoxy is somewhat thicker (greater surface tension)then varnish.
Good luck
Silicone, in all it's forms, applied to fiberglass or wood is pure evil and has no place on a boat..... (ok, maybe enging gaskets).
I have had some luck with coating wood with epoxy and varnishing over that. The finished product looks just like varnished wood, but is a little tougher. If the silicone oil is heavyly in the wood, it will just fish eye the epoxy also, but you might have better luck since the epoxy is somewhat thicker (greater surface tension)then varnish.
Good luck
1964 Pearson Ariel #226
'Faith' (the Triton's little sister)
Referred by;
www.sailfar.net
and
www.pearsonariel.org
'Faith' (the Triton's little sister)
Referred by;
www.sailfar.net
and
www.pearsonariel.org
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- Deck Grunge Scrubber
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From the replies here and some searching around the wooden boat forum it seems likely the main problem is silicone contamination. Below are some links that discuss it so I'm not alone after all:
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/u ... tamination
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/T ... _Hunt.html
I'm going to try a sample area of citri-strip paint stripper followed by shellac as a sealer coat between the bare teak and first coat of varnish. On a panel already full of fisheyes in the new varnish I'll try a coat or two of shellac. And try other areas with stripper alone and one with shellac alone before varnish. I'll also try TSP though I'm trying to avoid products needing a freshwater rinse since the water will run behind the stavings into the plywood, under the edges of veneers and trim and could cause more problems. If all else fails I may try an epoxy coat or fisheye additive if
it turns out to be compatible with the varnish.
Thanks for the tips and I'll let you know the results.
James
#384 Atom
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/u ... tamination
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/T ... _Hunt.html
I'm going to try a sample area of citri-strip paint stripper followed by shellac as a sealer coat between the bare teak and first coat of varnish. On a panel already full of fisheyes in the new varnish I'll try a coat or two of shellac. And try other areas with stripper alone and one with shellac alone before varnish. I'll also try TSP though I'm trying to avoid products needing a freshwater rinse since the water will run behind the stavings into the plywood, under the edges of veneers and trim and could cause more problems. If all else fails I may try an epoxy coat or fisheye additive if
it turns out to be compatible with the varnish.
Thanks for the tips and I'll let you know the results.
James
#384 Atom
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- Deck Grunge Scrubber
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After trying all the various suggested remedies, the only thing that worked was to use two coats of shellac as a barrier between the silicone contaminated wood and top coats of varnish. A simple solution, but it took a while to get there.
The shellac I used was Zinsser Bulls Eye Clear pre-mixed at a 3lb cut and I didn't need to thin it further. It worked fine whether I brushed it over sanded varnish full of fisheyes or on the bare teak to avoid getting fisheyes. Time will tell how it holds up.
James
#384 Atom
The shellac I used was Zinsser Bulls Eye Clear pre-mixed at a 3lb cut and I didn't need to thin it further. It worked fine whether I brushed it over sanded varnish full of fisheyes or on the bare teak to avoid getting fisheyes. Time will tell how it holds up.
James
#384 Atom
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LOL- I guess I'm late to the party- I was gonna suggest trying shellac. That's what we use as an undercoat to seal stains, etc that just won't come out, prior to painting.
Just remember that the shellac is soluble with alcohol. Rubbing alcohol, denatured alcohol AND drinking alcohol.
And yeah- I have a small container of Smoothie sitting above my spray mix table. I use an eye dropper half full in a quart gun of lacquer, to give you some idea of the strength. It is a LAST resort and never goes in until I'm shooting and SEE fisheyes.
Basically it in itself is a silicone (of sorts) that allows the finish to bridge the contamination.
Best to keep silicone OUT of the boat.
And I WISH fervently that the makers of furnuture polish would TELL you if it's in there or not. I KNOW Pledge has it.
Just remember that the shellac is soluble with alcohol. Rubbing alcohol, denatured alcohol AND drinking alcohol.
And yeah- I have a small container of Smoothie sitting above my spray mix table. I use an eye dropper half full in a quart gun of lacquer, to give you some idea of the strength. It is a LAST resort and never goes in until I'm shooting and SEE fisheyes.
Basically it in itself is a silicone (of sorts) that allows the finish to bridge the contamination.
Best to keep silicone OUT of the boat.
And I WISH fervently that the makers of furnuture polish would TELL you if it's in there or not. I KNOW Pledge has it.