Should I buy it?

[Harry James]

I am looking at Triton #455, I hope to get responses from this group as I post pictures with questions. This boat is non standard (surprise!). First it has no ports on the front of the dog house. Second it is a mast head rig with no jumpers. The mast step is non standard and it appears the base is adjustable fore and aft. In the masts current forward position it ihas only half or less of its diameter over the beam. The chainplates are all in stock positions, could this rig be stock? I am including pics of the whole boat and mast and one of the step.

Rats I am not including the pics, I thought I could upload them. I will find a site to put them and I shall return

[Tim]

Look forward to seeing the pics!

[Harry James]

Ok checked out another message that had a picture and will now try and use Free Image hosting

Here is the mast

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c28535aba5.jpg

and the step

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e34e6432de.jpg

[Jason K]

To make things a bit easier, here are those photos:

[Jason K]

Here's another shot from the National Triton Assc site:




Is the boat still in Alaska? It sure looks like it from your two photos.

In regards to the question of whether or not you should buy it...ABSOLUTELY! Of course, I suffer from frequent bouts of irrationality. But I do know this - the Triton is a wonderful sailboat and, if you buy right, you'll get an incredible amount of bang for your buck.

Things to watch for:

1) El numero uno concern: core rot. If your boat is a west coaster you may not have cored decks. However, the mahogany coamings aren't typically found on the WC Triton's, so that may be an issue for you.

2) Bulkheads - as on any old boat, check them out thoroughly

3) Mast beam - located (obviously) under the step between the bulkheads separating the hanging locker and v-berth. They have a tendency to deflect and even form a crack over time. Mine has had a crack for at least 10 years (according to prior owners) and I haven't had any new weakening. It is something to look for and keep an eye on though.

4) A short list, but that's what I know of that is specifically Triton. Other standard old boat stuff applies and I'm sure others here will add to the list.

I'm assuming you truly enjoy working on old boats...

Do you? What are your goals and intentions for the boat? Also, is the asking price commensurate with other Tritons on the market?

[Harry James]

How did you get the pictures to show? I couldn't figure that out, all I could do is the link. Yes the boat is in AK, still in the same spot. I took the picture on the National site. It isn't going anywhere either, there is at least a foot and a half of growth on the bottom, it is actually down on its lines from the growth. I originaly thought it was a Renegade because I thought there was a spade rudder hidden in the undergrowth.

The deck core is shot, there is a patch on the starboard side, its an East coast boat. I got some inside pics with some more issues to ask about as soon as I figure out how to get them to show without a link.

Deck beam looks good, havn't checked the bulkheads that close. They look good.

I have to face the the fact that I will have to pull the boat and get it under cover to work on the decks, it cannot be done outside here because of the weather. That means that I will have to put together a trailer for it and I have to consider that part of the purchase price.

I get excited about working on boats anytime, building new or rebuilding. My house is designed around the boat shop, Check out

http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Klondike/Klondike.htm

to see shots of my shop.

[Tim]

Harry,

That looks like a standard spar--that's definitely a familiar section. Some Tritons were originally rigged as mastheads; no one seems to know how many, but there are at least two locally here in Maine, and I know of quite a few others scattered about. Your spar will be a bit shorter than the fractional version, but otherwise identical.

Does it look like someone might have removed and filled in the forward ports? There are no pictures of it to see, but it's certainly unusual to not have them. Still, one thing about Tritons is that there are more exceptions than rules, so it's possible that your boat happened to be built without the ports in the first place. In any event, it's a minor detail.

As long as you are looking for a project--one to enjoy--and as long as you don't overpay for the boat, then by all means move forward with the purchase. Most Tritons are in a condition similar to the one you are showing in the photos, and most will need similar amounts of work to bring back. I don't know enough details about $455 yet to be able to form an opinion as to an appropriate value.

The boat looks old and tired, and I'm sure there's lots of work to be done. That should be an exciting prospect. As to transporting the boat, don't you have local haulers with hydraulic trailers there? Why build a trailer if you can have the boat trucked where you need it (unless you have an ongoing need for the trailer down the road)? Such transport rates are very reasonable, generally, unless your shop is a very long way from the water.

You already know of the need for a deck recore. Mast beam repair/replacement, if required, is straightforward, the only potential difficulty coming in removal of the old one, depending on how it might be installed. Do pay attention to the bulkheads and chainplate knees, as these are areas where water infiltration may have created significant damage. Look for punkiness in the lower areas of the bulkheads, and near the tabbing and chainplate attachment points.

Other issues you might find will be numerous, but much less significant when taken one at a time. In the grand picture, all the small things add up quickly to make for a major project, but that's all part of the fun.

To make your picture URLs show up as the actual photo, you need to add image tags on each side. Just before the url as you posted above, insert the tag [img];%20then,%20at%20the%20end%20of%20the%20url%20(after%20the%20.jpg%20extension),%20insert%20the%20closing%20tag[/img]. Alternatively, highlight the url and then click on the "Img" box at the top of the "post a reply" section, and the tags should be automatically inserted. It's far easier to do than it is to explain, so I hope this gets you going on the right track.

[MikeD]

You can also do a "Quote" of a reply that has the formatting you like and copy the tags and syntax from there...

[Harry James]

Here is the area that gives me the most worry, the starboard main chain plate

As you can see there is a lot of water coming through here, the bolts don't look to well aligned or properly tightened. I can't tell if the knee is rotton or not. What is the exact construction of the knee? Its not the only chainplate that doesn't look that good, though its the one with the noticable leakage.

HJ[/img]

[Tim]

Ugh...there's been plenty of water running through that. I would definitely be suspect of the integrity of the knee.

The knees are generally solid oak, covered with plenty of fiberglass (perhaps 1/4" thick all around). The wood is generally exposed at the top, so that any water coming through the chainplate opening has the potential to go right into the wood endgrain. That said, the oak seems to hold up quite well. I removed these knees during the demolition of hull #100 (now the Daysailor), and despite obvious signs of water infiltration, the wood was generally sound. It was challenging to remove the knees and their tabbing, however.

[Figment]

Carriage bolts?
Are those replacements, or is this Pearson Production Variant #4682.5?

Those bolts probably don't appear to be properly tightened because the uber-stout fiberglass tabbing on the knee won't allow the spurs of the bolt to bury themselves as would happen in wood.

I agree with Tim. The knee is suspect. I wouldn't classify this as a dealbreaker, however. It's only taking load from the lower shrouds, anyway. The bulkheads are more important, I think, because in addition to anchoring the primary shrouds, they are an important component of hull/rig stiffness.

[Harry James]

Carriage bolts?
Are those replacements, or is this Pearson Production Variant #4682.5?

I hadn't noticed the carriage bolts, that couldn't be stock?

Here are two pics of the port side chainplates, the forward one featuring the carriage bolt theme promently. This side doesn't show the leaks the Stb side has.





I need to check for softness in the bulkhead under the main chain plate, correct?

There is no sign of filled portholes, it was built without them.

[Tim]

Those look like replacement chainplates, at least as far as I can tell from photos--they seem a bit thicker than the puny originals. This could also account for the misguided use of carriage bolts.

Regardless, chainplates and their supporting structure are always a place to pay attention when looking at the boat--or at least when beginning your rebuild. Chainplate or bulkhead problems shouldn't be deal-breakers, as long as the boat is appropriately priced given her actual condition.

[Harry James]

What is a normal headliner? Here is a pic of a bit of what is in place now where it is coming off. It has been painted over at some time I believe. It doesn't feel like fiberglass underneath.



Here is a pic of the sole, notice what I believe is varnished cork as the insulator on the hull sides above the sole, I think this looks kind of neat. The sole looks in good shape, how would you refinish this while keeping the antiskid? The water is from me pulling something out of the bilge.

[Figment]

Hey now! This boat has been through a remodel or two!

The settee benches (if that's what they still are) have been cut back a few inches. What's the rest of that salon look like?

Is that a sliding hatch (pocket door) leading to the head? Damn. My wife must never learn of this. She's been urging me to do one and I've been telling her that there's no practical way to pull it off in a Triton.
Does that bulkhead extend below the sole and actually partition the bilge?

I dig the varnished cork. very very cool. a bit 70's/90's kitch, perhaps, but cool nonetheless. What is it about the sole that makes you want to refinish it? Looks good to me.
That headliner was probably very nice before it started to fail.

I suppose I shouldn't be so entranced by this stuff. These boats are 4 decades old, after all. Owner mods should be expected. Entranced I am, though.

[FloatingMoneyPit]

That is basically a normal headliner. Maybe not quite a liner in the sense of a separate structure parallel to the outer hull or deck which hides hardware & wiring & such, but more like hull-liner. Anyway, terminology aside, it looks like the common vinyl stuff that's either straight applied or foam-backed and applied to the hull or overhead with a cake of adhesive as appears in this boat. I easily pulled the liner off of my v-berth hull sides and ground off the brittle adhesive left behind. Not fun. I might as well take up smoking considering the crap I inhaled that weekend.

[Tim]

That may be a "normal" headliner (and indeed it is--seen in everything from RVs to boats to cars), but it's not a stock Triton headliner. The only liners found from the factory were the molded fiberglass ones.

I don't think I would have ever called that sort of headliner "nice", though! It screams 1975 trailer somehow. Naugahyde...eeewww! I'm not a fan of textured vinyl, ever. That's just me.

Removing that adhesive (assuming one was to remove the liner) may be a challenge. The liner will probably peel right off without a fight, but the remaining adhesive normally proves tenacious. You will likely be forced to reapply some sort of liner, as complete removal of the old adhesive (say, if you wanted to paint the surface instead) will probably be impossible. Perhaps you'll be lucky there, but be prepared for the worst.

The varnished cork reminds me of something you might see in a room at Graceland--I don't mean that in a negative way, but just as an attempt to describe its "period" look. Kitschy, for sure, just like the Jungle Room at Elvis's house.

As to the cabin sole: if you want to keep the best nonskid surface, leave the wood bare, as it is. However, if you want to spruce it up, you can apply the finish of your choice. One advantage of the Triton's narrow sole is that there is virtually no room for feet to slip in the first place, so regular varnish works fine (whereas in boats with wide dance-floor soles a slippery varnished surface could literally be the death of you). In heavier conditions, with the boat heeled, you'd basically end up walking on the settee bases anyway. What you do here really depends on how you foresee realistically using the boat.

As to the head door...well, I still maintain that it's best if one abandons all pretense at privacy on these tiny, unprivate boats and eliminates doors, which only get in the way, in favor of simple curtains. In all honesty, curtains are just as private; one is only kidding themselves that a door is somehow better on these boats, in my opinion. These are cozy boats. Maybe that pocket door (if indeed it is one) is a decent solution, but I can just picture a stubborn, sticky door that doesn't operate correctly. Unless it has high-end gliding hardware, I figure it probably is a bit balky to operate. I could be wrong here.

Keep those pictures coming! It looks like the boat has been "individualized", and it's always fun to see what other mods have been done to these boats. As I always say, they (Tritons) make great blank canvases for whatever the heart desires.

[Harry James]

Keep those pictures coming! It looks like the boat has been "individualized", and it's always fun to see what other mods have been done to these boats.

Well I can do that, I was worried I might be overdoing it.

I thought at first that the sole was stock but after looking at other sites I see that there is a lot more space between the settees. I get the clearest view from Atom's sole



I don't think the settees are that much narrower, so I am wondering if they are carried back farther or they are higher which alows them to go back farther. Can you give me a settee width and hieght above sole for your boat?



here is the only picture I have that gives an idea of how wide the settees are.

Is anybody familiar enough with the Triton Class racing rules to give an opinion of the 4 berth requirement. If you had a double slide out on the port side like the Atom, could you do away with or reduce the starbord berth?

[Tim]

Is anybody familiar enough with the Triton Class racing rules to give an opinion of the 4 berth requirement. If you had a double slide out on the port side like the Atom, could you do away with or reduce the starbord berth?

Are you really going to race in a class of Tritons?

And even if you did, given that most boats have been modified over the years, is that rule from the original boat's racing days even worth worrying about now? I can't imagine anyone ever making a fuss...and if they did, frankly, it doesn't sound like it'd be a fun race anyway!

I think what's important here is to ensure that the boat is optimized for what you, and you alone, want. If you ever happen to wander into a racecourse with a group of other Tritons, I have a hard time believing that you'd get any trouble if your boat didn't meet the letter of hte outdated class rules.

[Jason K]

Is anybody familiar enough with the Triton Class racing rules to give an opinion of the 4 berth requirement.

Don't sweat it - if anybody challenges you on any class rules, hit him over the head with your A4 gear shifter.

The Triton is undoubtedly the most unstandardized of any production boat I know of. Throw in the whims of the Pearson factory and the genious and folly of an eager and demolition-happy group of owners and you've got a boat that is poised to become what YOU want, whatever your fancy. It can be a daysailor or a circumnavigator. It's a boat with a legacy and, bought right, can deliver a tremendous amount of boat for the buck.

[bcooke]

When I first saw those interior pictures I assumed the whole settee was moved outboard including the backrest. Now when I look at it I think the settee was narrowed. The settees are pretty wide to begin with so it looks like someone traded some of that width for a wider sole.

Also, Atom, has foam backrests which absorb a couple of inches which make the settees look narrower than they are. I forget the measurements but my original settees were 24-26 inches wide. I narrowed them to 20 inches for more storage behind and don't miss the width when sitting. When sleeping I head for the V-berth anyway.

-Britton

[bcooke]

Oh, and if you ever race in a New England Triton Association (NETA) sanctioned race I am pretty sure you can get a dispensation from the Commodore. He is pretty friendly to this forum and the whole personal customizing process in general.

Is there any Triton class racing on the Left coast?

-Britton

[Harry James]

Now what I know is only from reading on these Triton groups, but I got the impression that the densest concentration of Tritons is in the SF Bay area, the SF web site says 80 and they have a very organized racing season with over ten class races a season. One of the biggest selling points on the Triton is that there are boats that have 40 racing seasons on the Bay and are still going. Those who have sailed SF Bay in the summer will know that this is a real testament to strength.

I am pretty much out of pictures, I am going to take another look at the boat next week with a check list and a little more time. More to come.

HJ

[CapnK]

There is a boat here in the marina, looks *a lot* like this one. I couldn't tell if it was Trition or not, thought it was just a similar boat which I don't recall the name of. I'll try and get some pics, see what y'all think, but...

It has no eyebrow ports, and, IIRC, is a masthead rig. It's for sale - I'll call the number tomorrow, and see what the broker says it is...

[bcooke]

Does it look like someone might have removed and filled in the forward ports? There are no pictures of it to see, but it's certainly unusual to not have them. Still, one thing about Tritons is that there are more exceptions than rules, so it's possible that your boat happened to be built without the ports in the first place.

I was doing some snooping around on the NETA history webpage and came across a couple of notes of interest.

In a list compiled by Bill Bell, Triton #651 was reported to have left the factory minus the forward ports, an extra two inches of headroom in the forward cabin, and a toerail (not sure what is meant by that). That would mean, I suppose, that it is entirely possible, and even likely, that there may be other Tritons out there without forward ports.

On a headliner note; I don't know if headliners varied but the intoduction of a headliner seems to have occured sporadically. #144 came with a headliner but #195 and #202 did not (again credit to Bill Bell's research).

As Tim mentions in the quote, there seems to be more exceptions than rules.

-Britton

[bcooke]

Just some more portlight trivia.

I got a copy of Everett Pearson's book as described in another recent thread here and right there on page 184 is a picture of a Triton raft-up and the Triton in the foreground has no forward port lights. The copywrite on the book is 1965 so I doubt Triton #651 could be the pictured boat and with #455 in Alaska (and I believe built in Saulsalito) I am thinking this must be yet a third Triton without portlights.

-Britton

[Tim]

And so the mystery perpetuates itself...

[Allen]

This is probably a stupid question, but are we sure this isn't an Alberg 30? The lack of forward facing ports and jumper struts really do make it look like an A30.

[bcooke]

Not stupid at all. The thought crossed my mind as well. Now that I have spent more time on my Triton I notice that the A30 cabins are a little more square around the edges which I don't see in those photos. I don't have a REALLY practiced eye though. The compass placement is also non-standard from a factory A30 but that could have been changed easily enough.

-Britton

[Tim]

Definitely a Triton, though the A30 thought is not that far out at all.

Port shape, height/shape of the cabin trunk, both forward and aft, and the interior shots are dead Triton giveaways.

[Harry James]

Here is why I think its a Triton



I think that Triton was the only model of the old designs that had this many completed

[CapnK]

About the boat I mentioned in my marina - I am convinced that it is an A30. There is no area code for the brokers phone # that is on the boat, and the owner didn't list the boat type when he signed his lease with the marina, so those lines of inquiry didn't pan out.

By looking around at pictures online, though, I noticed a few things - the "squarer" cabin trunk and deadlights stand out as recognizable features of the A30, as does a line impressed in the hull (obviously from the mold) horizontally, running fore and aft almost the length of the boat.

Seems like Harry is right, and he has a Triton there. Could it have been customized by the factory?

[bcooke]

Could it have been customized by the factory?

Perhaps customized isn't the right word. I think it may be more of a question of a lack of a standard coming out of the factory. There are tons of differences in Tritons and it seems no two came out of the factory the same. Perhaps, a buyer didn't want forward ports and Pearson was all too happy to accomodate. Or perhaps, there was a shortage of parts (which, I understand was a big problem for Pearson, this was the early days of mass produced boats and the necessary supply chains) so they just built the boat without the ports.

It is part of the mystic of Tritons and explains in part why Tritons so irresistable.

-Britton

[dasein668]

It is part of the mystic of Tritons and explains in part why Tritons so irresistable.

Ummm. Did you mean "mystique"?

[bcooke]

Ummm. Did you mean "mystique"?

Ummm... yeah, mystique.

I have been after Tim for years now to get spell check for this forum. How can I write creative and elegant prose when I can't get the words to spell correctly. :-)

-Britton

[Tim]

I have been after Tim for years now to get spell check for this forum...

Oh have you, now? hehe

Seriously, try downloading the Google toolbar. It has a neat spellcheck that works for form boxes like the one you use to compose posts on this forum.

http://www.google.com/downloads/

[Harry James]

I made an offer, if accepted you Triton experts are really going to see some questions.

To be continued

Re the spelling issue, I have a real problem with this also and if it is going to be a long post I do it in my word processor first and copy and paste it over.