Taping off

[Jason K]

Okay, I have a break in work that will, hopefully, coincide with a break in the weather. I'm going to try to paint the decks this weekend and next week. This will be nerveracking as it tends to rain every day down here in the late afternoon. The strategy will be to do limited sections at a time - the coachroof, the cockpit, each toerail, etc, in order to (1) be done early enough to provide enough dry time if I do get that stray shower and (2) minimize the damage if wet paint gets wetter.

So, I need to tape on Thursday or Friday night. My question is - when is the best time to take the tape off? My understanding is that I do it when the paint is still tacky. The final coat? I certainly don't plan on retaping for every coat. I think I'd rather sink the boat and go buy Macgregor 26. What's the best way to go about that?

Also, I'll be painting the skid sections first (what I call the non- nonskid). How much time do I need to give the skid to dry and cure before taping off for nonskid application? And, finally, how much time does the nonskid need before I can walk and work on it to begin rebedding hardware?

Thanks in advance.

[Figment]

Yes, remove the tape while the final coat is still tacky. The idea is to do it when the paint is still fluid enough so that the sharp edge left by the peeling of the tape naturally softens a bit before the paint fully cures.

On this forum it probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway... don't skimp on the tape. This is particularly important in a project that requires a span of several days and multiple coats. I forget what 3M's product designator for the stuff is, but I like the plasticky tape for such applications. Take your time, take frequent breaks, do whatever you gotta do, but do a VERY good job with the taping. Remember that the success of any paint job is 95% preparation and 5% application.

As I learned the hard way (see the thread titled "Overambition" in Ramblings), paint sometimes takes a while longer than one might think to reach that "Fully And Completely Cured" point. I'd add 24 hours to whatever the paint can says before applying tape to fresh paint.

Please take the following in the most lighthearted way possible:

You're in New Orleans and you're going to do a paintjob in the middle of August???!!!! You're nuttier than I am!
Even if you do somehow manage to avoid the daily afternoon rainshower, with temperatures in the high 80's or low 90's, it's going to be VERY difficult to get the brush strokes to self-level before the "skid" paint cures. You'll need to thin the paint to the point that it'll be nearly transparent.

Well, that might not be such an issue if you're not changing colors.
Seriously, though, are you sure this project can't wait a few months?

[Jason K]

You're nuttier than I am!

You better hope so! :)


I don't know if the project can wait or not.

Regarding the changing colors: ALL of the old paint has been removed. I'm down to gelcoat. I suppose I don't take as much notice of the heat as others might. I didn't know it would have such a tremendous bearing on the outcome. Which brings me back to not knowing if the project can wait.

As you know, the work that goes into prep is intensive. Many, many nights after work and long weekends have been spent getting the boat ready for paint. I won't squander that time spent by screwing up the last steps. However, the heat isn't going to mitigate significantly for a long time. For context, we went sailing last Christmas Eve and wore t-shirts and shorts, comfortably.

Simply, I want my boat back together and looking good. It's tough having it lying under tarps and floating in its slip, unsailable. So, can the project wait. Well, sure. However, most of the work will happen before 10 am, before it gets really hot. Will waiting really make such a significant difference?

[Figment]

well, "significant difference" is a highly subjective term, of course.

What I know from my recent experience with Interlux Brightside paint is that 85degrees vs. 75degrees made a significant difference in terms of getting the paint to lay down. It made the difference between a completely unacceptable job, and a job that actually looks pretty nice from two feet.

Having said that... hey, the southern boating industry can't just sit on it's ass for ten months of the year waiting for temps in the 70's, right? Somebody down there must've figured out some way to get the products to behave in that climate. Perhaps there's some super-slow-evaporating solvent that's added?

[Jason K]

According to the Interlux website, this stuff should be used with temperatures between 40 and 95 degrees. I think I'm going to proceed. Thanks for your input and I welcome more, from Figment or anyone else that has had similar experience. Thanks again.

[Rachel]

Hi Jason,

There was a really good (long, information-packed) thread on The Woodenboat Forum a couple of weeks ago wherein a fellow in your neck of the woods was painting a boat he'd built. It was plywood-epoxy construction, so he was essentially painting a fiberglass surface. I just walked in the door and don't have time to find the thread now, but I'll look later on and post a link.

He did finally have success and I believe Penetrol was one of the things he added to retard drying time. However, now that I think about it, I believe he was using oil-based enamel (Kirby's), so I don't know how that would compare (although I think a number of the thread contributors talked about poly paints).

The times I've painted I haven't had good luck with leaving one run of tape on through several coats. I also found that 1" tape would conform to the curve of things much better. So, what I ended up doing was putting a strip of 2" tape a bit above my line and leaving that strip on through the whole project, then using a strip of 1" for the paint line. I would take off the 1" each coat but could leave the 2" in place. That being said, I've only done a few painting projects, so I'd defer to anyone with more experience.

Perhaps "Heart of Gold" will chip in - I believe he lives in Pensacola and works in a boatyard there, so he probably has gobs of experience with hot, muggy weather.

--- Rachel

[Figment]

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/U ... =011899&p=

[heartofgold]

Jason,
Sorry it took an extra day for me to throw in my 2? worth, but here goes.

I think I'd rather sink the boat and go buy Macgregor 26. What's the best way to go about that?

I would like to discourage the Macgregor route. I don't feel details are necessary.

I will second much of what Mike said. Taking your time to do the taping correctly is paramount, and yes, the type of tape you use is equally significant. If it is a "wham-bam" quick job, try the 3M #218 Fine Line tape. I would discourage leaving it on the boat (outdoors) longer than 3 days; within that time frame you will be fine. Beyond that window, I will echo Tim's admiration of 3M #225. For long term exterior application there is no substitute, in spite of the cost.

You're in New Orleans and you're going to do a paintjob in the middle of August???!!!! You're nuttier than I am!

We have painted 5 boats in the past 3 weeks on days were the temperatures are well over 90 and humidity to match. As we say here, "It's all in the rue." Spraying is much different than roll and tipping. Spraying in 90? heat is one thing, but rolling and tipping is quite another. Mike is right that the difference between 75? and 85? is huge. Getting the mix right (whether you are using single part or two-part polyurethane makes little difference in practice). Simply ensure you use enough reducer to allow flow, but not so much that it sags.

And again, as was stated earlier, pull your tape following the last coat after the paint has flashed. For Brightsides, roll and tip in these conditions, I would estimate between 1? and 2? hours. When removing the tape, remember to pull the tape up at a 90? angle to the deck; this will ensure that you do not pull up any strap material with the tape.

These conditions are challenging to work in, but not unmanagable if you know how to handle it. Good luck. I look forward to hearing how it all turns out.

[Rachel]

Thanks for posting the link to that Woodenboat Forum thread, Figment - I was just now going to go hunt for it, but now I don't have to :-)

--- Rachel

[Jason K]

OK, well I think I've heard enough to make me a bit nervous, but not enough to discourage me. One thing I am curious about: It seemed a fairly common sentiment on the wooden boat forum that rolling and tipping is bad practice in this heat. Some thought that the roller put the paint on too thin to tip out before it dries. Is that the case? Would I be better of brushing the whole thing?

[Rob Richardson]

I may be a little late on this issue but I have a tape suggestion. Practical Sailor did a bit on tape about a year ago. On their comparison they mentioned 3M's black electrical tape. Cost efficient and excellent for fine lines. I have tried it and found it worked better than the blue masking or the plastic 3M. You might give it a try, it will bend easily around curves and comes off clean. Rob Richardson

[Jason K]

Hey Rob, thanks for the suggestion. I'll need the tape to stay on for a week, at least. I'd be worried about residual adhesive on the decks with electrical tape. In this heat, it's like slow baking it on there. I intend to use the 3M #225 as was used on Glissando.

[heartofgold]

Jason,

I do not feel that you need to be to concerned about painting in the heat, as long as you keep a few simple tips in mind. One, paint early. As you should sand between coats, that means you must begin sanding by sunrise if you intend to sand and paint the same day. I presume you will be using a single part poly (Brightsides). Though this product will not present the finish of a two part LPU, it is much less finicky. Accordingly, the second tip is to practice before you apply to the boat; this is to ensure that you have the correct amount of reducer to allow proper flow in your temperature conditions. I was very fortunate when I painted Heart of Gold, in that my wife and I had just replaced all the windows in our house, and I had many windows to test the mixture before it went on the hull or topsides. Once I got a feel for the product, I was able to figure out a reducing ratio, getting it right on the first try. A window pane or piece of glass is the perfect surface to test out both your mixure and your technique.

I intend to use the 3M #225

Like a fine German wine, an excellent choice.

[Jason K]

Allright! Just the right words of encouragement. I have all of my old, faded portlights - they should make for perfect testers. I am using Brightsides, by the way. I know that it isn't the same as two part, but my goal from the start has been old boat that looks good (as opposed to new). This is a closer match to my budget, time, and experience level. I appreciate all of your input and I'll let you know how this project turns out.

[heartofgold]

Jason, one last word of encouragement. I was in the same postion as you when I was painting my boat. I did not want the expense of 2 part, and frankly, it scared the hell out of me. I hemmed and hawed about, but in the end finally decided to go with Awl Grip, mainly for one reason. Prepping the hull is really no different whether you are going to use a single or 2 part product. In an environment such as we live (Northern Gulf Coast) a paint job with brightsides will last 3-4 years looking like new. Awlgrip, however, will look new for 7-8 years. Thats twice as long for the same amount of work, just to save, what $150-200? Does this amount of savings really make you smile if you consider that you will have to go through this process twice as often? Once you figure out how to mix the paint (let me see, there's paint, converter, and reducer...)--it's paint, not brain surgery! (you're not a surgeon are you?) For me that was a no brainer (no pun intended).

Of course you must do what you feel is right.

Tim was the one who convinced me of this. I would gladly forward you the email he sent me a year and a half ago, but I lost it when my computer crashed last October. The decision, however, is yours.

[Rachel]

I may be wandering a bit off-topic here (but I entitled my post such that it should help if anyone's searching), but I'd like to flesh out the one- vs. two-part poly debate a bit.

I'm not to the painting stage yet (clearly!), but no harm mulling it over in advance. Heart of Gold, I am in complete agreement with you when it comes to doing massive amounts of labor on a self-completed project but then scrimping on materials - that seems crazy to me (although to each their own).

Yet, I'd always thought I'd go with one-part simply because I'd heard it was much more repairable and touch-up-able. I hate the thought of feeling like my boat is a precious thing that can't be scratched, and I can't imagine not inflicting a few wounds along the way. So what sayeth those of you with two-part paint jobs: Does every scratch and gouch necessitate a brand new job?

It's funny: On wooden boats a nicely done enamel paint job looks great - a brush stroke here or there looks normal and fine to me as long as the job doesn't look as though it were sloppily done. Yet on a fiberglass boat that doesn't seem to work. Does the material itself somehow inherently demand a glossy, perfect shine? Perhaps.

--- R.

[dasein668]

So what sayeth those of you with two-part paint jobs: Does every scratch and gouch necessitate a brand new job?

No.

Clearly, I'll be doing a repair job on my bow, and due to any number of other issues (problems with the boot, a few thin spots, etc) I'll be repainting the whole boat. But I've developed one or two other slight nicks and I wouldn't even think of repairing them. From 15 feet you just can't tell. From 5 feet only I can tell. The overall effect is simply amazing so it just doesn't matter.

I think Tim would second this view?his paint is now, what, 5 years old? When it's on the hard and you get up close, you can see plenty of nicks, dings, scratches, scuffs etc., but when the boat is in the water and you look at the overall effect... all those little flaws just don't matter that much.

My personal feeling is that a boat is meant to be used. It's going to show some wear, no matter what you do. Its just part of life.

To me, I'd rather see a high-gloss job with some nicks, scratches, etc. than a pristine one-part job that had lost its gloss.

[Rachel]

Hey Nathan,

Good to hear from you again - place has been kind of quiet without the Maine/Mass contingent :-) Can't wait to hear about your cruise!

Am I reading you correctly that you don't actually repair the little dings and scratches (with the two-part paint), but that if they're small you just leave them and it still looks pretty darned good? I could see that being true.

What exactly happens if you *do* fill in a bigger scratch with a bit of paint? I never knew exactly why it wasn't supposed to work; does it just not blend at all? Look worse than when you started?

At this point I'm thinking that Interlux Perfection sounds pretty good. I don't know if it's just hype, but I like the idea that it was formulated with brush-wielding do-it-yourselfers in mind. Not that you still wouldn't have to do a good, careful job of course.

Thanks for the input...

--- Rachel

[dasein668]

Tiny nicks don't really show. Especially if you have a white hull. But even on a dark hull they show much less than you would expect. If they bother you you could dab some paint in there to hide the primer.

More major scarring can be reparied. Read Tim's experience here: http://triton381.com/projects/smallproj ... amage4.htm

Having seen his repair up close and personal I can say that when the boat is on the hard, you can see the repair, but it's not particularly noticeable. In the water?no.

I think the "designed for rolling" is just hype, myself. Feadship yachts, for example, uses awlgrip rolled and tipped on their megayachts. Use the right converter and reducer and go for it.

[Figment]

Welcome back, Nathan!!

If I'm remembering that old Professional Boatbuilder article correctly, I think the painters at Feadship don't even use rollers. It's all brushwork. Now those guys have some SERIOUSLY supple wrists!
They also work in a five-brush team, each with a specific role in the process, plus one extra guy whose sole responsibility is to maintain the perfect paint/solvents ratio in everyone's cup. Must be nice, eh?

I think that the success or failure of a particular paint touch-up has more to do with the skill of the painter than it has to do with the particular type or brand of paint.

[dasein668]

Hi Mike,

Yes, I seem to remember the super-crews too. Along with crazy staging set-ups, banks of high-powered lighting, and labratory-type cleanliness procedures.

But I was trying not to scare people off! hehe

[Tim]

Interlux Perfection is simply a rebadged version of the old Interthane. New packaging, maybe a tweak to the formula, but nothing new here. I wouldn't bother; Interthane never excited me much. It just doesn't work that well. I have been very underwhelmed by it in a few uses over the years.

All boats get dinged up over time. They're boats, not museum pieces. Minor dings are unnoticeable except when the boat is on the hard. I have a couple annoying white spots on the starboard side where the boat dinged against a dock during launching one year that I keep meaning to touch up. By touching up, I mean dabbing some blue Awlgrip on the spots and calling it good. Out of the water, of course this would be noticeable, and is far from perfect. In normal use, you would never notice.

The problem is with larger repairs, where one might try to blend the old paint with the new. This is very difficult with Awlgrip, and tends to leave halos or other telltale marks. Frankly, this would happen with any paint if there was a significant time difference in the age of the patch and the original. You can't buff old and new together as successfully as you might with, say, gelcoat, so this is where the bad rap comes from.

Spot repairs for tiny dings are like filling a shopping cart mark on your car door--you dab on the touchup paint and from a very short distance away, the repair is invisible.

Of course I wish for the perfect "Hinckley finish" on my boat. In a couple years, I'll give her a present of new paint on the hull and with luck will come close to that once again, but when she's in the water and clean, she looks almost as good as when the paint was first applied. I take care of her, but she's a cruising boat and gets dings from lobster buoys, dinghies, and so forth. She's not perfect, but few boats are if you get right in there.

Awlgrip holds up better than any of the cheaper paints. I think it is always worth the extra money. Nothing looks as good, new or down the road, and nothing holds up as well, particularly with a dark color. Fading is nearly nonexistent. 10 years is not unreasonable to expect for an Awlgrip hull, barring unforeseen circumstances.

My advice: either use a simple enamel or single-part polyurethane, or go with Awlgrip. Forget the "Perfection" or any similar product.

[Rachel]

Tim,

Thanks for the input. I agree with your reasoning, so, when the time comes, I'll go with either a simple one-part or the Awlgrip. No sense going middle of the road, it doesn't seem like.

In my case a previous negative experience with Brightsides (painting a runabout back in the mid-90s) doesn't really endear Interlux to me anyway. I mean, if you and others had been singing the praises of Perfection I would have given them another chance, but, as it is, I'm happy to give it a miss.

Thanks again - and so glad to hear you had an enjoyable cruise.

--- Rachel

[Jason K]

Well the Skid sections are done. Whew. Lessons learned:

1) Don't paint in New Orleans in August. What a hot job (and the non-skid still needs to be done and all the hardware needs to be rebedded).

2)Don't paint in the evening unless you want a bunch of bugs in the paint.

That's about all I retained. Though I am pleased with the results and found, once again, that the project isn't so tough once you plunge into it.

I ended up sticking with the one-part poly and used Brightsides. I primed with Interlux' Pre-Kote primer. The result - very decent, I think. Though we'll have to wait and see for the durability.

I was concerned while priming that brush strokes would be an issue. Despite multiple coats, I just couldn't keep the brush marks out. However, it sanded easily and when the Brightsides was applied, I found it much easier to keep the brush strokes out of the finish. I had their 333 Brushing Liquid handy and whenever my tipping off brush would start dragging, I'd add a little bit.

You can see some imperfections. There are places where I could have faired better. There are some brush marks. But from the dock, you'ld have a tough time telling whether it was rolled or sprayed and from another boat - impossible.

However, the stuff went on painlessly and it has transformed the boat. It is absolutely unbelievable the difference paint makes. The boat is going to look great once the non-skid is layed down and all the freshly varnished wood is reinstalled. It has breathed new life into a project that was getting, frankly, very old. I can see light at the end of the tunnel and I CAN"T WAIT to finally go sailing on my own boat.

I'll post some pictures later on. Thanks to all of you for your tips and suggestions.

[george]

How would you rate Pre-Kote as far as build goes?

I am also going with a one-part poly (Toplac and Brightsides just to keep things confusing) and was curious how Pre-Kote would handle deck crazing. I want to avoid using a two-part epoxy primer if I can.

Another good reason for choosing Toplac/Brightsides is the choice of colors! There are more lighter/southern colors than with Perfection, which must be geared towards folks that actually own winter coats.

I went with Toplac one-part "Lauderdale Blue" for the topsides and Brightsides "Blu Glo White" because I got a gallon of it for $50, and the Teflon additive MIGHT help with deck scuffing.

But I am curious if Pre-Kote will meet my build needs, not that I have a lot of crazing to worry about.

[Jason K]

Hey George,

It seemed fine on the "skid" sections, but I had very little crazing on those sections. I'll be priming for non-skid this weekend and the crazing is far more severe on those parts. I've faired with West System epoxy, but you can still see some crazing. I'm curious myself as to how it'll turn out. I'll be sure to let you know.

[Tim]

Pre-Kote is a pretty thin primer, and won't do any heavy-duty building. It's definitely a finish primer in terms of coverage and consistency.

All primers and paints will do some good towards filling of crazing and other similar problems, but nearly all techniques will allow print through in the future--some more quickly than others. Of course this all depends on how bad the problem is to begin with.

If you feel you need a high build primer, don't expect Pre-Kote to fit the bill.

[CharlieJ]

When I repainted Tehani, our Meridian 25, I used a 2 part poly. On the topsides I deliberately shot so it wasn't glossy, but a sort of eggshell semi gloss. She's a 45 year old boat and although Laura worked hard filling and fairing there were still some waves and dips. The semi gloss hides a good bit of that. Additionally when we arrived at out new home marina after 1600 miles on the ICW with NO damage, the damned dock we stopped at to go ashore and pick our slip, had these damned bolts sticking out- gouged the crap out of the hull on one side. She was SOME P.O'd.

Laura filled with epoxy/filler, sanded it back and sprayed some 2 part over it using a PreVal sprayer- VERY hard to see the repair unless you know EXACTLY where to look. Another mark for semigloss topsides.

In addition, we had to renew our nonskid. I had sprayed the decks and cabin using the same 2 part poly, so Laura taped off the nonskid areas and rolled on a single coat of Interlux Interdeck. I'm pretty impressed with the stuff. Even up on the foredeck where the anchor chain beat on it almost every day for over 5 weeks it still looks great. We need to add a second coat, but I'm pretty sold on the stuff.

[Figment]

I went with Toplac one-part "Lauderdale Blue" for the topsides and Brightsides "Blu Glo White" because I got a gallon of it for $50, and the Teflon additive MIGHT help with deck scuffing.

Hey, another fan of the medium-blue topsides!!! I'm learning that we're something of a rare bird. I'm not sure if the Lauderdale is the particular shade I want, but it's in the running. Petit's Bikini Blue is also on the list, along with a few other oddballs.

I'm obsessing way too much over this decision. I'm nearing the point of leaving notes on boats that I see... "Hi. Beautiful boat. Love the color. Which paint is it? Please call my cellphone anytime...."

Anyway, I can't wait to see your results.