Gasoline smell/general A-4 questions/fresh-water cooling.

[Rachel]

I'm completely new to inboard engines, and my new-to-me boat has an Atomic Four. My initial problem is that the boat smells very strongly of gasoline, and so I'm afraid to run a heater aboard (it's cold here!) - and also I come off the boat smelling like a fuel tanker. Ish.

The second part of this is that I noticed Figment made a couple of comments (in my initial boat thread) about the engine (I believe about the location of the fuel filter), and so as long as I'm posting photos I'd like to hear any suggestions, warnings, observations, etc. about anything you see there.

When I first looked at the boat I was pretty overwhelmed with a gasoline smell as soon as we stepped below. Wow, was it strong! Granted, the boat was shrink-wrapped, but the wrapping only extended to just below the gunwale, where it was blocked out from the hull a couple of inches - and there were also numerous vents in the wrap. Also, the previous owner's son mentioned that the boat had "always" smelled like gasoline, and he had mentioned his concern to his dad. So it's probably not just because of the wrap. I plan to live aboard - and I'd also prefer not to explode - so I want to get rid of this smell!

My initial suspicion involved a red plastic "outboard" tank that had been installed in the starboard cockpit locker, alongside the main tank. It was only there as a "spare," and indeed, wasn't even plumbed into the main system. The cap vent was firmly closed, and the fuel hose that would normally route gasoline to the outboard went to a "T" in the vent line of the main tank, just below where it exited the boat on the stbd side-deck outside the after end of the cockpit coaming. Still, I know these are not supposed to be belowdecks, so the first thing I did after the boat was mine was to remove this tank. I plugged the vent line (which I had cut) with a very snug-fitting length of dowel stick until I could get it properly removed (I thought that maybe more fumes could come "back" from the main tank vent otherwise). Here's a photo of that set-up before I removed it:



The smell is still there, however. I have yet to investigate it fully. I can smell strong fumes if I stick my head into the locker in the vicinity of the top of the main tank.

Here's what I know about the engine and fuel system from the PO's records (I leave out routine things like plug wires, rotors, impellers, and etc.):

The engine is the original 1967 Atomic Four UJ-2, serial #79083

1984: New Tempo metal fuel tank. The brochure says that there were either a painted "metal" tank, or an aluminum tank (which could be optionally painted) available. I will have to check, but my guess would be the painted "metal."

1986: (not really engine, but...) New bronze prop shaft and cutless bearing.

1988: New water-cooled muffler system complete. New head and exhaust manifold with in-head thermostat (Dole) (if I read that all correctly).

1990: New Oberdorfer water pump.

1993: Rebuilt carburetor (Zenith one-barrel).

1994: New regulator and coil.

2003: Rebuilt carburetor.

2004: (622 hours on engine at this point, by the way - not sure if that's a lot or a little...) Fuel system "redone" with new hoses, valves, and add water-separating fuel filter (Quicksilver/Merc brand).

2004: Indigo electronic ignition.

So... I would greatly appreciate any input since, as I mentioned, I'm totally new to the world of the inboard engine. Here are some photos: (I remember that someone commented about the vent elbow being a likely source for the smell, so I will check that - and take a few more photos of the whole system - and report back.)

I do have a couple of service manuals, and a parts manual. They look very neat and logical when I'm reading them, but I still get a kind of "Gaaaah!" feeling when I actually look at the real engine. In some ways (not including my pocketbook), I would love to have gotten a rusty old A-4 that I could have hated and yanked out, but - alas - this one looks like it might be a keeper, if I can get rid of the smell (otherwise, look out little buddy, you'll be coming out of there!)







One other thought I'd like some input on is the idea of freshwater cooling. The engine has raw-water cooling right now, but of course that has been freshwater cooling since it's been in the Great Lakes all it's life. I understand that when running in salt water, it's best to put in a cooler thermostat - even though it's not as good for the running of the engine, it's supposed to reduce the corrosive effects of the salt water.

On the subject of freshwater cooling, I suppose I could figure that since it's got a 40-year "head start," I could just leave it raw-water (now salty) and get a good many years out of it. On the other hand, it's now "pristine," and I have a chance to keep it that way by switching to freshwater cooling. This all supposes that I can eliminate the gasoline odor, of course.

Thanks ahead,

--- Rachel

[windrose]

Rachel, it is rather simple to do an acid wash to rid the A bomb of any salt build up. If you decide you are keeping the A 4, you should plan to spend a day over in Chestertown with Don Moyers, now that you are in VA it is practically in your backyard. When I was there a fellow had come all the way from San Fran to go to the workshop.

He and Brenda are wonderful folks and his seminars are straight forward. He has several A 4's there to take a part and put together etc. He is a good teacher and builds your confidence by showing and detailing just how very simple the A 4 truly is, a two day seminar was a little over $100 and included a great sack lunch.

Here is a link to his site:
http://www.moyermarine.com/about.htm

[Tim]

Assuming you plan to keep the boat long-term, and are committed to the engine, then upgrading to fresh water cooling is well worth the expense and effort.

Otherwise, I'll let the A4 buffs handle your specific questions about the engine.

[Jason K]

The Atomic 4 is a mechanically simple engine. I'm sure you can isolate and repair whatever is causing the fuel leak.

I would put some paper towels under the tank to see if the tank is leaking. If it is, it will need to be removed and replaced.

Also, check the connections in your fuel lines. Start at the deck fill - be sure the hose and the connectors are sound. From there, check the fuel filter and connections, the fuel line, and the carb.

Is your bilge clean? If it isn't, make that a priority. If it is wet, sop it up. I read a Boat US statistic somewhere recently that said using a wet/dry vac to clean up spilled gasoline has caused multiple fires.

I'm not by any means an A4 expert, and my A4 and I have had a somewhat turbulent relationship. However, I don't see anything in your photos that strikes me as unusual or alarming.

I am concerned about the fumes you mentioned. If the fumes are strong enough to impregnate your clothing while you're aboard, it seems to me that the source has to be fairly significant. Again, I would suspect your tank, but I would also very carefully inspect the rest of the system.

I would not be quick to abandon the A4 either. They're good motors. A new diesel is certainly superior, but a well maintained Atomic 4 will be just fine. Be sure you keep at least one spare coil aboard. The electronic ignition can be rough on them, particularly if you leave the ignition switch on by accident. It's a ten dollar part and it takes five minuted to swap out the coil.

Also, you may want to switch the the impeller cover with the thumb screw-equipped cover that Moyer sells. They make swapping impellers very easy.

Also, freshwater cooling would be a good idea. The motor sounds like a well-mainted engine and it makes sense to protect it. 622 hours is pretty low, particularly given its age.

[Rachel]

Assuming you plan to keep the boat long-term...

Boat shopping again? <shudder> Of course you never know; I'm just kidding around.

The engine certainly seems worth maintaining, so I'll look into the fresh-water cooling.

Jason: Thanks for the concrete tips on where to start looking for my fume source. Although they sound basic and sensible when I read them, it's really helpful to have you spell them out. I'll look at all the things you mentioned. Also I'll see if there is a coil amongst the tons of spares that came with the boat, and if not I'll lay one in.

The 622 hours was in 2004, so since it looks like the boat's use was fairly consistent over the years, I'd guess it has 650 or a little bit more right now -- I'll have to see if there is an hour meter.

--- Rachel

[Figment]

If you find a spare coil, check it against the one that's on the motor to see that they're the same. As I recall, the indigo electronic ignition uses a particular coil.

If the fuel smell source isn't painfully obvious like a leaking joint, etc, my money is on a leaking float valve in the carburator. It appears that this boat's fuel tank is well above the engine, and a siphon would naturally establish.

My comment in that other thread about the position of the fuel filter was based on the appearance that it was located roughly above the #4 plug, and the thought that any drips would land on the engine head made me uncomfortable. In these new pics, it appears farther to starboard and possibly farther aft as well, so my concern is probably unfounded.

[Duncan]

They look very neat and logical when I'm reading them, but I still get a kind of "Gaaaah!" feeling when I actually look at the real engine

I'm no expert, either, and I am quite familiar with that feeling. A friend of mine walked me through rebuilding my single-cylinder Volvo, though.

For what it's worth:

1) He encouraged me to remember that these things really are simple if you take them one step at a time.
2) The manuals and diagrams usually made the most sense afterwards. They are a great guide going in, but it seemed interactive: I'd keep going back and forth, and gradually building up an understanding of what I was looking at, and how it worked. Then, things made sense, but only after working on them.

If you start with the presumption that something simple has happened, and it's just a matter of tracing it through step by step, that seems like the sort of advice that has been most helpful to me.

[Hirilondë]

What material are the fuel tanks made of? People with fiberglass tanks and gasoline engines are discovering one of the principals of ethanol the hard way.

[CharlieJ]

she said-

"1984: New Tempo metal fuel tank. The brochure says that there were either a painted "metal" tank, or an aluminum tank (which could be optionally painted) available. I will have to check, but my guess would be the painted "metal."
"

So I assume it's metal.

I've been reading about the ruined engines from the sludge created from ethanol and fiberglass tanks. Boat US did an article just before my membership ran out. Many many people needing new tanks and engine rebuilds from it. On some BIG boats too, so we are talking many many thousands of dollars.

[bcooke]

Moyer makes the best engine manual by far for the A4 (IMHO). I have mentioned this by PM but just thought I would go public with my opinion.

If I could I would do the seminar just for the fun of it. I bet Don has some neat tricks to pass on. Definitely check out his forum. If you have a question he will have an answer for you in a day or two.

You could probably get a long life out of your engine with the current raw water cooling BUT... (1) you love your engine and don't want all that crud in the Bay running through its intimate parts. (2) Freshwater cooling provides a more stable operating temperature for the engine (should be 180 degrees too, not the 160 used in raw water cooled systems). It is just nicer and your engine deserves the best.

The other upgrades you have sound good. I like the electric fuel pump too. It can be located wherever it is easiest to maintain.

Now fuel smell. Gasoline engines should not smell like gas. A faint musk of oil perhaps but never gas. You could just jam your nose in there and see if you can locate the source. I would aim for the tank, then the lines and then as Mike said, the carburetor/fuel pump location. Any smell from inside the motor however will be oil (fresh or burnt) or coolant or perhaps exhaust. There are only trace amounts of gasoline in the engine itself past the carburetor so the source of the smell should be before the engine. Also, you might not see wet gas but you will likely see some staining from leaking fuel that later evaporated.

I still get a kind of "Gaaaah!" feeling when I actually look at the real engine

Totally normal. I always feel that way myself until I spend some time with the machine. Feel free to just take things off just to check them out.

I would not be quick to abandon the A4 either. They're good motors.

Hehe, it is nice to see you come around :-)

I agree that 620 hours is fairly low. Just a baby really; though I am really not sure how many hours an A4 is good for.

As I recall, the indigo electronic ignition uses a particular coil.

I think it was the 'late model' coil.
(the coil is that black canister looking thingy in the back with the spark plug wires going into it. It takes 12 volts from the battery/alternator and boosts it to 10,000-20,000 volts to make a spark across the spark plugs)

Like Duncan said, they really are simple. An engine is really a whole series of very simple things all strung together to make something useful happen. You need air, fuel and spark (technically an 'ignition source') to make your engine run. If something is wrong it is one of those three things. The main engine block houses the pistons and crank which basically forms a pump. The carburetor measures the amount of air being sucked in by the pump and allows the correct ratio of fuel to be sucked in as well. The spark is generated by the coil and 'points' or electronic ignition module and it is delivered exactly when needed by the distributor which in turn is geared directly to the pumping parts so everything works together. Piece of cake.

-Britton

[Figment]

QuoteFest!!!!

Freshwater cooling provides a more stable operating temperature for the engine (should be 180 degrees too, not the 160 used in raw water cooled systems). It is just nicer and your engine deserves the best.

Just to be snarky, I'll point out that early raw-water A4s have absolutely no thermostatic control whatsoever. They run as hot or as cool as they run, and yet they run.

[Rachel]

Thanks for all the comments and the concrete information, all of you; it's very helpful. Nice to know I'm not the only one with the "Gaaah!" feeling :-)

Figment, I see what you mean about the fuel filter; I'll have to see how it measures up in-person, and what it would leak on if/when it did. I also note what I assume is the water intake, with a veritable stack of valves on what doesn't look at all like a proper seacock...

I'll keep you all posted as to what I find. Tomorrow is actually supposed to be warm enough to sustain life... They need to invent a sparkless heater, by the way.

--- Rachel

[The Good Goose]

Rachel
Congratulations on the new boat. I would check the vent line and make sure it is clear. wasps like to stuff mud in them and they can become clogged. I would then check each connection starting at the tank and working my way to the engine. replace any suspect fuel line and hose clamps while your at it. shut the valve at the tank and see if you still get the smell. If you don't you know it is down line from the tank. You could also drain the tank air the boat out and wait for warmer weather to figure it out.

I don't know how much a freshwater system is for an A4. I looked into one for my Yanmar and it was so much ( around 2000) I decided to keep it raw water. There are plenty of A4's that have worked for 20 years being raw water cooled in salt water. Myself if it was over 500 I would save the money and put it toward a diesel in 20 years.

Don't be intimidated by the engine just start at the parts you know and work your way around from there. I just thought of another common cause of fuel smell. The fill line. These are often difficult to see and often neglected. If you shut off the fuel supply to the engine at the tank and it still smells that would be my first item to check.

Brock

[Jason K]

shut the valve at the tank and see if you still get the smell. If you don't you know it is down line from the tank.

Great idea.

The freshwater cooling kit below is just over $580. You know, at that price, I think I would just freshwater flush the engine every year and acid flush every couple of years (easy to do). That's a lot of money for something that, while certainly beneficial, is not strictly necessary. I retract my earlier advice to go with the cooling system.

Here's a photo of the system from www.moyermarine.com:

[bcooke]

Since when did cost ever factor into what the boat needed?

Fresh water cooling is better. End of story.

Mike does bring up a good point about the A4's early incarnations having no thermostat. Quite bluntly, the A4 is no fine piece of high tech machinery and it probably doesn't matter what you do with it. Show a modicum of care and it will run.

-Britton

[Jason K]

Mike does bring up a good point about the A4's early incarnations having no thermostat.

My confidence was rapidly eroding when I was searching and searching for a thermostat and couldn't find one. I thought for sure that my short and troubled career as a marine mechanic was over. I was both relieved and a little concerned when I discovered that the boat didn't have one (and hasn't had one for more than 40 years).

[Figment]

Nor an oil filter.

[Hirilondë]

Are you all sure that the A-4 wasn't built by Volkswagen? It sounds a like like my 64 bug.

[Tim]

I agree that spelling gas is not a normal part of having a gasoline engine in your boat. You shouldn't smell the engine at all unless you're up close and personal with it.

It only takes a small vapor or fluid leak to stink the boat up for days. A little gas goes a long way in terms of odor. So a virtually imperceptible looseness of a clamp or fitting could be enough. A pinhole leak or barely loose fitting will not necesarily even be visible.

Check each clamp and fitting methodically, or, even better, go through the entire system and replace components as necessary.

Because the engine and boat seemed well-maintained, I didn't think to ask what sort of fuel supply and fill hose you have. Check for markings on the hose to ensure that it is the right type. Using the wrong hose could also allow permeation or saturation by fuel that could release vapor. Note that fuel fill hoses are frequently one of the most neglected hoses on the boat. If the hoses were last replaced in 1984 when the tank was replaced, then they are all getting very old anyway.

I know that every time I take one of these engines out, a small amount of fuel inevitably spills. The boat stinks for days even when I wipe up the tiny spill at once.

620 hours on the engine works out to 15.5 hours per year. That's low usage for sure. If there's no hour meter (or even if there is), there's no guarantee that that is the actual hours. Most people vastly underestimate engine hours in these instances.

New bronze prop shaft and cutless bearing.

Thank you for correctly spelling "Cutless".

[Figment]

Tim is absolutely right about the hose, I've seen heater hose used for fuel lines, though where on earth they found heater hose smaller than 1/2" I'll never know.

For all of my "no oil filter no thermostat raw water simplicity is divine" drivel above, it is certainly fair to say that thermostatically controlled freshwater engines DO run better and run better for far longer. I think the important thing to digest here is that the cash cost of such modification is discouraging, but that's ok because this is NOT something that needs to be addressed immediately. You have several seasons to procrastinate before the evils of saltwater cooling begin to take root.

[Quetzalsailor]

We had an A4 in our Morgan 27. The boat reeked of gas and oil. It ran most of the time, but we had to sail home, back into the slip or onto the mooring quite often (good practice!). It finally suffered sufficiently, from sticky or non-sealing valves, to require attention to the upper end; it would start but did not have enough horsepower to turn the prop. We took it to Marine Engines Unlimited, in Galesville MD, for R&R. While it was out, I replaced the engine beds, added motor mounts, rehung the gas tank, replaced all vent and supply hoses, rebuilt the bottom of the cockpit. The engine came back with an electric fuel pump and an oil pressure cut-off switch. I had previously installed the Indigo Electronics ignition and rebuilt the carburetor. It ran perfectly for the several seasons (until the day of the new owner's sea trial). The boat no longer stank at all. The folks at Marine Engines said to not worry about fresh water cooling because the casting is thick enough to seldom be a problem.

It does not take much gasoline to be enough to smell. Just a drip or two, a thin film on your hands will catch your attention for quite some time afterwards.

[dmairspotter]

My last boat (Tartan 30) had an A4 that I found to be pretty reliable, quiet, and powerful.

Early on I did have some fuel problems which started with strong gas odors and climaxed with gasoline in the bilge!!!

After freaking out and quickly and CAREFULLY getting the gas out, I hunted down all the fuel lines. I found that the cabin sole had been screwed down with regular wood screws, and that one of the screws had made an invisible hole in the a fuel line, which would leak more or less depending on tack, etc.

Moral: if you have ANY questions about the fuel lines, run (do not walk) to the nearest marine store and get sufficient Coast Guard approved fuel line to replace it all. Then make sure it is run in a safe and secure manner.

[FloatingMoneyPit]

Just another confirmation that a little gas goes a long way towards stinking up the boat. When I have this situation on my boat, I can usually cure it by opening all the hatches and running the blower for 20 minutes. With a good breeze blowing through the cabin, the smell dissipates pretty quickly. I suspect on my boat the smell--when it's there--is usually due to fuel sitting in the carburetor throat (which is exposed via the flame arrestor). If the engine stops at just the wrong instant, there may be a few drops sitting in the throat that missed their chance to be atomized--that's my naive theory, anyway.
If the P.O. simply forgot to close the shut-off valve before laying up the boat, that would be enough to cause your situation. Open the hatches and give it a couple days.
If I stick my head in the companionway and am not overwhelmed by the smell of gas, and if I sniff the air coming out of the cowl vent hooked up to the blower and I only smell bilge gunk, I can confidently start her up.
Then the oil pressure starts its impending decline and the thermostat won't close...but that's another story!
Moyer's manual is a must-have for us engine neophytes, it's true. I rebuilt the carb for the first time recently and went from Gaaah! to Duh! thanks to the manual.

Congrats, by the way! Smelly or not, that's a sweet A30.

[Rachel]

I made a preliminary survey of the fuel system tonight (car problems have kept me from spending the time I wanted to on the boat, drat). It was getting dark, and I wasn't sure if a flashlight counted as a spark (does it?), so it was mostly accomplished by paper towel and nose.

Although the boat was still basically closed up from the move, I will say that the fuel smell has diminished somewhat. Taking the red-plastic outboard tank out must have helped.

I started by sniffing around the fuel tank and the connections on top of it. I wouldn't say it was gas-free, but it wasn't too strong, either. I wiped the hoses, elbows, etc. with a paper towel and there was nothing to speak of. Of course I'll go back over all of this in daylight. (Or with a flashlight if that's deemed safe - and while we're on the topic, what about my camera flash?) The tank looks like it might be sitting directly on a fiddled shelf, with no stringers, so I'd like to get a look at the bottom of it.

Where I did find some "active" gas smell was on the flat metal "shelf" flange that's just under the flame arrestor. There was no liquid, but more what I'd describe as a "light, thin sludge." In other words, it wasn't really thick, but also not drippy wet. It definitely had a strong smell though.



You can see the "shelf" in the above photo, although on my engine the flame arrestor is oriented much more vertically.



Here's the flame arrestor on my engine at the after end of the ribbed hose. I reached in under that and found the fuel sludge on the metal engine flange "shelf." I can see that this is near the carburetor, so that will have to be checked out (as had already been suggested, of course); but I'm also wondering if one needs to clean the flame arrestor --- is it like an air filter in that way?

By the way, I see why some people rip out the icebox and put longer berths there; it's a tight little spot!

I'll post again when I get more complete information, but just thought I'd report back with what I've found so far.

--- Rachel

PS: (just read Floating's post) the shut-off that is just "downstream" of the tank is in the closed position already.

PPS: So I can go from "Gaaah!" to "Duh!" eh? Well that's something, I guess.... When does "Aha!" come in?

[FloatingMoneyPit]

Oh, sorry--"Duh" for me means "uh-duh, how could I not have understood this before?". It's usually accompanied by a self-scolding smack on the forehead.

Btw, it looks like your flame arrestor has a different orientation than mine and most of the A4s I've seen, which is such that the "grill" is horizontal, parallel to the manifold. Looks like yours is more vertical...?

[Jason K]

Mine has the same orientation as Rachel's.

[radicalcy]

Rachel,
I don't have gasoline engines in my boats, but I do have them in my cars and lawn mowers. I always notice more gas odor after the offending engine has been sitting idle for some time. How old is your gas? If it's been sitting since 2004, then it's most likely suffering from "fuel breakdown". The gasoline separates into it's base components, and one of those is a shellac like substance that smells like the dickens. The odor is about 10 times stronger than fresh gasoline.It tends to settle in the carb float bowl, and it will seep out thru the gaskets insidiously. It will also foul your fuel/water separator, another place where it can weep past gaskets. The separator on my 8.7 was 30 years old, and I'm betting still had the original filter canister installed. The diesel odor was overpowering. I installed a new Racor system with a spin off filter, and the odor diminished immediately.
If on the other hand your gasoline is fresh, just ignore what I've written, and keep looking for that leak.

[Rachel]

Hi Larry,

I believe the PO sailed the boat this past season, so it's probably only been sitting since September sometime. Of course the gas could be from earlier in the year, but probably not 2004. Good thought though.

[Rachel]

What's good to use for getting that "light sludge" and other gasoline dribs off the engine anyway? Gojo on a rag? Soap and water? Something else? The smell of gasoline certainly does hang around. I have a pair of "gas station" gloves in the car, so I haven't had to deal with it much lately.

[Tim]

Rachel,

I see that gasoline paranoia has set in strongly! While respect for the power of gasoline fumes is healthy, overworry about the consequences will not suit you well in the long term. It doesn't hurt to be careful, of course. The smell of gas is always a legitimate warning sign that vapors are present, so until you can clear up this gasoline situation you are smart to be wary of all devices. That said, you have to live.

Your flashlight and camera flash will not cause sparks that will blow you up. I wouldn't go using matches, lighters, engine starters, or electric tools that produce visible arcs in their motor housings (most drills, for example, and any universal electric motor). Don't decide to use an angle grinder to shape and grind metal at this juncture. Don't set up your arc welder in the cabin.

Ceramic heaters do not produce sparks and are safe. Don't use any heater with an exposed element. Don't unplug an electric cord with a load attached, which can produce a small spark as we have all seen at one time or another. Don't hook up a battery charger, or mess with your battery cables.

Feel free to use any commercially available degreaser on your engine to clean up the sludge. I highly recommend cleaning up this stuff with regularity. Dirt and grime always absorb odors and moisture, which is a good argument for keeping all those hidden parts of your boat sparkling clean.

You'll need to literally air out the boat to remove residual smell. Open her up and encourage the breeze to flow through. Run the blower and monitor the smell coming from the outlet. Clean up the engine room and bilge with detergent, and anywhere else where there might be residual grime that could have absorbed the odor or, worse, liquid gasoline.

Your fuel hoses (any and all) shouldn't permeate any fuel odor, so you might try that rag trick that you always hear for sewage lines: wipe the hose with a clean rag and see if it picks up any odor. I don't know with any authority whether this is a legitimate test or not, but it's safe to say that if you smell gas on a rag after rubbing a hose, that the hose is releasing fuel vapor. That should not happen, and would not with the correct hoses. Never skimp on any aspect of any fuel system, particularly gasoline.

Smelling gas is not a normal, nor acceptable, part of having a gasoline engine in your boat. Carburetors can leak sometimes, but shouldn't routinely. Nothing else should ever leak.

Good luck! Be careful, but be realistic about the concern too.

[Quetzalsailor]

Carburetor rebuilding and cleaning: Buy the kit, take it apart, clean everything and cookbook it back together: simple, no? Have a quantity of lacquer thinner and a toothbrush on hand, a can of carburetor cleaner, the removable type of gasket cement or sealer, and a piece of thick gasket material. Take all the brass parts out but don't disturb the peened-in plugs; spray lots of the cleaner through the passages. Clean enough is lickable but not new looking. You want to be able to see new gas stains if leaks develop.

Clean the spark arrestor with the laquer thinner; it's a folded brass screen with a very tight mesh. When clean, it doesn't smell and you can just see light sparkling through it. It doesn't help continued cleanliness that the crankcase breather vents right to the arrestor but it keeps the hot oil smell down in the boat. Seems to me that it's mounted with a clamp, thus can be rotated horizontal.

Now the real reason for my taking your time: Carburetors are zinc diecastings and the mating flanges are susceptable to bending because folks overtighten the screws to be sure of getting a seal. The gasket for between the top casting and the bottom casting, supplied with the kit, is thick enough if the flanges are flat. I used fine emory paper taped to a piece of window glass and sanded both surfaces perfectly flat and clean. This is not so easy as it might seem since the throat projects though the plane of the surface; you have to work around it using the edge of your sandpapered glass. Then I made a new gasket of thicker material using the kit-supplied one as a pattern. You can buy gasket material in several thicknesses at you local car parts store. I used the gasket sealer on one face, with the idea of being able to get it apart again, and snugged the thing back together, gently tightening the screws sequentially.

The toughest part is assembling the choke cable and cable clamp. The screws are tiny, easily damaged and usually buggered by the previous guy. Replace 'em with new. You have to do this in the boat, in poor light and with no knuckle room.

[Figment]

The throat projects though the plane of the surface; you have to work around it using the edge of your sandpapered glass.

Really? I have two old carbs and one new one (boy I really need to start ebaying some of this stuff) and this isn't the case for any of them. Zeniths?

The toughest part is assembling the choke cable and cable clamp. The screws are tiny, easily damaged and usually buggered by the previous guy. Replace 'em with new. You have to do this in the boat, in poor light and with no knuckle room.

This is EXCELLENT advice. I'd blocked out my memory of this knuckle-bleeding frustration. The first time I rebuilt my carb I swapped out these buggered old screws with new stainless allen-heads.

[Quetzalsailor]

I went on Torrenson's website which said that the carb was a Bendix (after 1969, Zenith before).

Interestingly, the diagram for both the Bendix and the Zenith shows that the throat is a separate casting which comes out of one or the other castings. Now, I'm a big guy, perfectly accustomed to breaking things with or without tools, but that piece showed no inclination at all to come out! I remember thinking at the time that it was a pretty damnable arrangement, and difficult to machine, too.

I learned the thick gasket trick on my 1953 Studebaker Champion (long gone, now). Its fuel pump filter bowl has to be dissassembled to access the bolts holding it onto the engine. And, even though rebuilt, and squeaky clean, and no doubt tested at the rebuilders, the very first thing you do to your new pump is disturb the gasket on the bowl. The bracket which holds the bowl is readily distorted by overtightening the thumbscrew on the bowl's strap. It won't leak gas because of the geometry of the casting and the gasket, but it will suck air when you tromp on the pedal. Use two gaskets and be gentle with the thumbscrew.

Of course, the antideluvian technology of the A4 mechanical fuel pump is identical.

[bcooke]

While the flanges might be warped, in most cases -in my experience- they are not. The extra thick gasket trick sounds good but I have never needed to use it in the 20 or so carb overhauls I have done. I just wanted to point that out to someone that hasn't done it before. Carb overhaul is much easier than some would think; especially on something as crude as an A4. The parts are small so a clean, clutter free workspace helps. I have done it on the tailgate of my pickup but finding those small parts when they jump off the tailgate is a bummer.

I hadn't thought of using laquer thinner either. I suppose that would work fine. I have found though that a can of carb cleaner is more than enough for an overhaul so I just use that on everything. When I do another overhaul I buy another can. I don't use it for much else so half a can on the shelf is plenty for me to keep around. Ventilation is a good thing with that stuff too :-)

Someone once gave me the NAPA part # for the overhaul kit that costs around $20. Going through Moyer I think you pay about $80 for the same kit. I will see if I can find the #.

Unless the carb has been sitting around a long time with gas in it I bet you won't need to touch it though. Carbs are rarely the culprit when troubleshooting. Everyone wants to acuse them of being faulty but more often than not it is something else in the sytem.

I forgot about the smell of old gas. When I got my boat the fuel had been sitting around for a couple of years and when I drained some fuel the stench was really awful. It clearly smelled different from normal fresh gas smell. That could well be why the smell is so strong in the boat. As a side note. My cousin owned the yard where my boat was and his power washer ran out of gas on a busy Saturday. I told him to siphon off as much gas out of my boat tank as he wanted. Being the cheapskate that he is he took me up on my offer. Seeing him the next week struggling to make his power washer go helped me get over the fact that I had to replace all the fuel injectors in my truck when the ancient gas I siphoned off for my own use wrecked my truck's fuel system.

I would second the call for new fuel hoses. They are cheap and since it is difficult to determine what condition they are in (internally) it is just cheap insurance to replace them once in a while; say every ten years. Since you don't know how old the current hoses are a new set may be in order.

Mike, how could you possibly use three carbs? Considering the amount you use your engine one carb should last a century or two. Ebay baby!

-Britton

[Rachel]

Don't set up your arc welder in the cabin.

Whew, you just caught me in time on that one ;-)

Really, I wasn't going to be paranoid about gasoline; just careful. But just a few scary anecdotes later, here I am, afraid to use the camara flash. I guess this is what it must be like for pregnant women - suddenly everyone is telling them about so-and-so's gruesome complications, in vivid detail.

Ceramic heaters do not produce sparks and are safe.

Thanks for the specific examples. Makes sense, but it's good to hear it anyway. It didn't dawn on me that there were any heaters that didn't involve sparks or flames - guess I'm still living in woodstove-land in my mind. Yay, I can have heat!. I'll have to look at the cube heater I have to see if it's ceramic, otherwise I'm going straight to the store to get one ;-) Actually, now that I open my mind to the possibility, I suppose those oil-filled, radiator-style heaters don't have an "open" element either.

Engine degreaser - duh, I forgot about that.

Good luck! Be careful, but be realistic about the concern too.

Ah, balance. Will do :-)

Edit: Oops, when I wrote this I didn't realize the thread had gone to another page, and so I missed the carburetor info. Thanks for that, and again, for specific recommendations and details. Some of them probably seem obvious when you're writing them, but from my angle it's great information. I'll let you all know what I find when I take a good, close look (probably Saturday), and after I've had a chance to really air out the boat for a whole day.

--- Rachel

[Quetzalsailor]

I dissagree with the assessment of safety of one electric heater over another. It's not the element and the heat; it's the little arc you get when you operate the switch, or when you plug something in that's already on. The oil-filled DeLonghi's have a switch, while the element is immersed in oil. The ceramics and the exposed coil type are roughly the same physical size, they use the same 1500 watts; without fans, I think they'd have to be at about the same temperature. Heaters with internal fans knock the temperature of the element way down since that heat is carried away.

The other way to argue the problem is to remember that electrical equipment intended to be safe in an explosive environment is 'ignition protected'. Since that's more difficult and expensive to do, tools and devices which are 'ignition protected' are labeled as such.

My impression is that carb cleaner and lacquer thinner (and nail polish remover, too!) is pretty much the same stuff: acetone. Buy it the cheapest way.

When I had to get rid of 19 gallons of suspect boat fuel, I used it a gallon or so at a time on top of a full tank in the Volvo (and snuck another gallon or so into my wife's Honda). Took a while, but safe and effective. The last gallon of glop, I burned off in a can in the back yard; not as safe, possibly not legal, but effective.

[Figment]

Laquer thinner is acetone?

[CharlieJ]

No Lacquer thinner isn't Acetone. It MAY have some percentage of acetone IN it, but there are other things mixed in also. And there are different drynesses of lacquer thinners, for use in different situations, such as high or low heat, high or low humidity. I commonly alter the lacquer thinner I use here with a retarder, to slow the evaporation rate. In the humidty we have here, spraying un retarded ( no joke meant) lacquer will give you a white flocked look. It drys too fast, so I need to retard that drying. Sometimes a LOT when the temps are over 100 degrees.

[bcooke]

Carb cleaner clears out my lungs much better than laquer thinner which is why I think it is different stuff. Working in a tight spot with that stuff has me seeing angels and pretty flowers in no time.

I am pretty sure laquer thinner is tolulene or tolulol (I always get the two mixed up). Acetone smells quite different to laquer thinner to my oratory pallet anyways :-)

An open flame is an obvious ignition source but I agree that a non ignition protected switch should used with caution. Of course, smelling gas and having enough in the air to ignite are two different things. Gas vapors are dangerous but we are not talking instant death at the first whiff of the stuff either. Geesh! Rachel will be too scared to climb back into her boat if we keep talking like this.

-Britton



-Britton

[Rachel]

Geesh! Rachel will be too scared to climb back into her boat if we keep talking like this.

Well, I haven't bought the heater yet... I *am* getting a bit nervous. Maybe it will be warm enough Saturday to clean up under the carb, etc. without using a heater. In the meantime I actually got a motel room (those who know me will know what a radical step that is) for the last couple of nights. It's been darned cold here, and my rental KIA (car problems) is not exactly a deluxe camper-mobile. Also I started a new job, and didn't want to look like I'd been "camping." :-)

Quetzal sailor: I followed what you were saying about switches, but then when you went into the small heaters and their hot/coolness, I kind of lost you in terms of how it would spark/not spark.

I didn't mean for this to get so dragged out! Sorry to take up forum space for what must seem a bit silly to some. I'll try to move along into through-hulls very soon...

--- R.

[richfriend]

Just to throw my two cents worth in, I believe the arc created by switches, phone ringers, etc. happens on the 'break' not on the 'make'. On the make (closing cycle) there is no current to arc until the contact is made unless you are dealing with fairly high voltages. The situation is not the same on the break or disconnect cycle. The usual danger with switches and vapor comes when you turn the switch off or the circuit opens.

[Quetzalsailor]

Well! I Googled 'Lacquer thinner', read several MSDS, and found that there's a world of difference between 'em. Xylene or Toluene base, several alcohols, some have acetone. While I knew some lacquer thinners were tuned to specific products and had driers and so on, I thought generic hardware store lacquer thinner was pretty much the same; not so!

Interestingly, the MSDS percentages of contents added up to 120% in a couple of thinners: more for your money!

[JSmith]

Some times when I have a wet cord/tool to plug in I'll plug it in, then go plug in the extension cord 25/50' away where it's a little drier.- Would that work in a "fumy" place, or am I just kidding myself?

[Rachel]

I had the same thought: Use an "oil filled radiator" type heater and plug it in and turn it on aboard, then go over to the power source (away from the boat) and plug in the extension cord. Not if there were intense fumes, of course, but if it was just "smelly" ??

I *finally* got a chance to check the boat out again last night (by non-sparking headlamp) and I think I've found the major culprit. Not that it was rocket science, but I just started a new job and so I wasn't on the boat at all.

It's supposed to get down to 10 degrees at night here next week, so I definitely want to sort it out. By the way, that's cold for here! Someone said it was supposed to be something like -30 in Duluth though...

Anyway, there is fuel on engine parts below the carburetor, and even some (presumably) fuel-deteriorated paint on the engine bed below the carb, so I would say it's leaking. I'm now at a coffee shop thawing out and I intend to go back and read the thread(s) to see how to drain the carb. Also, although the fuel tank shut off is in the "off" (perpendicular) position, it is up by the tank (above the carb I think) and so there is probably fuel in the hose between the tank and the carb, right? What does one usually do about this? Take the hose off at the tank and try to get the end into a can and then lower it? Or would that fuel drain out if I drained the carb?

Gad, I sound so ignorant. Oh wait, it's an Atomic Four, I am. <laugh>

[A30_John]

Remember many oil-filled heaters have switches and thermostats that can spark when the heater cycles on and off.

Isolating the fuel tank and draining the fuel system definitely sounds like the way to go.

Is the boat insulated?

[Rachel]

John - I wondered about that. I guess I'll stick with living at atmosphere temperature, although it's getting to be a real drag, and I'm feeling discouraged.

I did spend the earlier part of the day poking around the engine with white rags (first, to test for gas), and then Simple Green on "shop" paper towels. I wanted to use engine degreaser, but as it turns out it has to be rinsed with water, and that didn't sound like a good idea currently.

What I found is some gas scum under the carb - but not enough ON the carb to make me feel like it is currently leaking (but perhaps when the engine is running?). I cleaned all around the carb area and then put a white washcloth underneath to see what happens.

Next I removed the flame arrestor. Wow, was that smelly. I took it off the boat for now and bought some carb cleaner to spray into it (that will clean it, correct?).

The hose (segmented metal?) and fitting that go from the engine block to the flame arrestor are also really gasoliney smelling but I noticed carb cleaner said not to use it on painted surfaces, so perhaps I'll use Simple Green on that.

When I look into the (throat?) of the carb from where the flame arrestor used to be, there is a thing in there that looks like a small version of a flue damper that you'd have in the stovepipe of an old fashioned wood stove. That is perpendicular to the opening (i.e. "open") -- is it supposed to be like that? I wondered if it was the choke and checked the knobs in the cockpit but none of them were pulled out.

Then I moved on to the gas tank. Wiped all around the hoses and connections with a fresh white cloth but got no smell or dampness. Same for the hoses (red-striped fuel hose, btw). Left petcock closed. There was a tiny bit of sludge in the lowest corner of the cockpit locker that smelled a bit of gas, so I cleaned that out. Still there is a bit of gas smell in that locker (which is not *really* open to the engine room) so I started to undo the tank strap. I thought I could just lift it up a bit and swipe underneath with the cloth. Of course then a guy working on a neighboring boat mentioned static electricity and sent me looking for a ground wire. I did find a wire from the fuel filler rim on deck to a spot for it on the tank, but couldn't positively identify a wire from the tank to anywhere. I stopped undoing the tank at that point anyway, and decided to get some water out of the bilge (think it got in there during the move but not sure).

I pumped some of that water up (there's one of those "Bilge Buddy" hand pumps that gets most of the bilge but not the lowest bit) into a bucket and while it's not absolutely full of gasoline, it does smell like gas in the plastic bucket I pumped it into. Drat.

So I came into town to buy a bunch of odd cleaning supplies to try to get into the bilge sump (call someone if I don't post by Tuesday!). I can't run the regular bilge pump because no batteries are hooked up on the boat. Maybe a sponge on a stick?

Also, I thought about taking off the hose after the petcock (right at the tank) - the one between the tank and the engine - and just taking out the tank to check it. But then I wondered about something: There must be gas in that line between there and the engine, right? And there is also a canister-style filter in there in between. So if I take that line off the tank what do I do about fuel in the line or the filter?

I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed and discouraged. Bleah. I also can't imagine getting this all cleaned up with the engine even IN the boat. How is that possible? How hard is it to take it out? I bet there's a fair bit to it. The overwhelmed part comes because there is this gas issue and then all kinds of other systems like the stuffing box, and tons of wires and hoses, and...... well, you get the idea. I'm feeling like maybe I got in a little too deep with a "big" boat. Probably living on a cold boat in a boatyard is not helping things. Maybe this should have been a ramble...

Lucky for you all the coffee shop is closing and I will stop now! <laugh>

--- Rachel

[Figment]

I'm going to double-down on my "leaking float valve" bet. The fuel is pooling in the bottom of the carb until it leaks out the mouth.

I assume that your plans include dismounting the carburator for a good cleaning and a rebuild anyway.

That segmented metal hose is your crankcase vent. Throw it away and get the much-improved ccv kit from indigo . Moyer also sells a ccv kit along with an improved flame-arrestor, but for a bigger chunk of change.

Yes, everything gets easier if the engine is out of the boat, but that seems like an unnecessary step at this point, and not on the critical-path to getting you afloat in a sweet-smelling boat asap.

[Tim]

I think pulling the engine would be taking things a bit far, and would be a bit drastic given the symptoms of your problem. I know it's tempting to just pull out everything gas-related so you can literally clear the air and turn up the heat, but it's certainly more work than you want to get into, and for no real gain other than to satisfy a temporary frustration.

I know it'd discouraging to have this problem, particularly when you feel unsafe on the boat and cannot enjoy simple pleasures like heat. But continue with a methodical approach and you're sure to find the problem.

A little prudence goes a long way, of course, and it's better to be safe than sorry. You probably won't blow up, but you're right to play it safe nonetheless.

Tighten everything, clean everything, remove what you can. Air the boat out. If you want to pull your tank and need to close off the fuel lines, look for little rubber stoppers at the hardware store that will fit inside the hose. These, along with a clamp, should work. If you do this, tape the plugged end of the hose up somewhere so that gravity won't try and drain the hose.

Good luck. Hang in there.

[A30_John]

Tim offers a good perspective - hang in there. I remember when I got my boat the small things seemed overwhelming at first. Two years later, I'm far more relaxed about things.

If I were in your situation I'd seriously consider finding a local mechanic who has worked on the Atomic 4 and have him/her sort out the problem so you can safely operate heat in there. There will be plenty of time to learn about the engine in the Spring when you're warm, the days are longer, the birds singing, etc. And the cost of the mechanic might look pretty good if you spend many more nights in a motel.

Concentrate on getting warm and getting going on your new job!

BTW, in a couple of years that "big" boat is going to start feeling small! ;-)

[Rachel]

Thanks guys :-) I was going to start a ramble called "Talk me down, please!" but now I don't have to.

You mean..... spring will come, the birds will sing, and I won't always be winter camping in a petrol station? Sweet! :-)

I can't imagine why I'm stressed. I mean okay, so I left my job, moved across the country, bought a boat, moved a boat, had my car break down while I was in the process, and started a new job. <laugh>

But now I read about singing birds and spring and comfy boat/homes and I feel all better :-)

Okay, though, I have to ask: How have you people not been complaining daily and bitterly about these deep bilges and tight engine spaces? I know, I know, you're probably thinking "Yeah lady, go ahead and gripe; we've all been dealing with this for years and taking it like mature, stoic people, so quit yer complaining already!"

I did intend to drain the carb - and maybe it's easier to do it by feel once you know what you're doing, but criminy! I love how the engine booklet shows both sides of the engine and labels all the parts. You're reading it, nodding, and thinking "uh-huh, yep, uh-huh, that looks right - I'll just go do it" Then you climb up onto the boat, look into the engine (ahem) "room," and YOUR engine is not at all like the one they show. Nope. THAT one is naked and clean and well-lit, whereas *your* engine is shrouded in darkness, and surrounded by thousands of hoses, clamps, wires, valves, and bulkheads - and there's a gaping, water-filled pit beneath it.

Okay, I forget what one does about a leaking float valve, but I'm guessing the answer is going to be "drain the carb." Is that right?

I have made some progress. I found a hand pump that was hooked into the bilge, and will get all but about 5" of water out of it (which, by the way is so deep that there is molten core about another 6" below that). So I did a few simple green wash-throughs and scrubbed what I could by reaching in with a mop and a few other things I found in the "wacky cleaning implement" section of the hardware store. It still sends out gasoliney smelling water, but I know that it's probably hard to get out of there. I also put in a succession of "oilsorb" squares (on a string so I could get them back out!) There's about a 4" x 8" gap in front of the engine for accessing this space, and that's bisected by a Morse-type cable that leads to the external propeller for the Sumlog (which, interestingly, says it's made in Germany and reads in miles-per-hour).

Oh, and I removed the flame arrestor and hose from the boat and cleaned them with carb cleaner. I'll probably take your advice on the newer one - I can see that that segmented hose is just a grunge trap.

I'll hold off on my "engine ripping out" scenario -- that's a really good plan for now -- but I can say that that bilge will never really be clean and painted until it's out someday. And you're right Tim that it just sounds SO tempting because it's all yucky and overwhelming at the moment.

I'll look for some plugs tomorrow and re-investigate removing the tank. I'm thinking that if I can find someone to play "yawl boat" with an inflatable to get me to my slip (a few miles in calm water), then I won't even have to commission the engine until summer. I can take out the tank and just try to get it to not smell and then re-investigate later on.

Thanks again for the moral support as well as the practical suggestions,

--- Rachel