sail track dilemma

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:38 pm

Well, I just finished awlgripping the mast for my medalist, and I'm in the re-install hardware phase.
My mast originally came with 1/2 inch bronze external sail track, which I'm not all that enthralled with. Its very tiny and kind of wonky (technical term).
I just finished installing a schaefer furling boom system for a customer and I ended up replacing a lot of his very nice serviceable 3/4 stainless external sail track which the owner was nice enough to donate to my cause. :-)
I could upgrade the old small bronze track with the larger stainless track but then I'd have to modify all my sail slides.
So if I'm modifying my sail slides anyway why not go with an even more modern external track and something low friction.
Right?
*sigh*
I'd love to go straight to a low friction system like schaefers battslide, but even at my boatyards super discount all the track and slides still comes out at about $1k. And that doesnt even include modifying the old (very old) sails and battens.
I'm also thinking about the tides marine strong track system. 'Cause then I could upgrade to the low friction system later, and still sail (theoretically) in the meantime. I'd still have to change my sail slides from the 1/2 inch track to the 3/4 track, but how hard and expensive could that be.

Any opinions on sail tracks or suggestions for course of action while I'm at this particular crossroads?

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:47 pm

Just a commonsense note that you can pay a great deal for tiny incremental improvements. I suspect most slides and tracks suffer more friction from getting dirty than anything major in their design.
I shoot a little WD40 in the channel, work it up and down a bit, and it's amazing how much difference it makes.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:46 pm

I'll second Duncan on that one. I'd go with the donated track and put the saved money towards a new sail with the proper slides.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:51 pm

Are you sure it's 1/2 inch? All I've seen and all I've ordered for customers is 5/8ths track, plus of course the 3/4. I don't know how large the main sail is on your boat, but my Meridian sails quite well with 5/8 track and metal slides. Sails drop like a rock when you let the halyard go. I have the same track on my 18 foot sharpie, put the same track on a customers 22 footer and another 17 footer.. I suspect you'd have to go pretty large on a main sail to really NEED anything larger than the 5/8ths.

And Duncan- he doesn't have a channel- it's an external track with slides, not slugs. Good thought though cause dirty sail channel does cause a lot of problems.

Picture of my track on the boom, with the slides. Luff has the same arrangement

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:16 pm

hmm... well I thought it was half inch.
I just threw the tape measure on there and gave it a quick glance.
I was pretty sure it was spot on 1/2 inch.
Could easily be 5/8ths. Guess I'll recheck.
Heres a poor closeup of a bit of the track.

I was just looking up replacement sail slides for the larger sail track and all I could really find was pretty much 5/8 and 7/8. I couldnt find anything for 3/4. Couldnt even find 3/4 sail track. I know Schaefer makes 5/8 and 7/8.
Anybody have a source for 3/4 track sail slides?

I'm not sure what my mainsail area is. The total boat sail area is about 525'. My mains luff is about 35' and my boom is 14.5'. Sooo that would make the area of the main about (looks for calculator...) 270 sq. ft.

The bronze track is kind of unsightly on the shiny new mast (to me anyway). Maybe if the mast was wood and I still had the original spruce boom it might look ok, but I put a piece on and I thought it looked kind of odd. Its also got a lot of bends and dents.
The 3/4 track is free and just sitting there, so I thought I'd give it a try.
Just need to source the slides.
How hard is it to replace the slides? Do I need to go to a loft or can I do it myself?

bhartley · Post by **bhartley** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:56 pm

Zachary,

I am not exactly clear what size cars you're looking for -- 3/4" or 1/2".

I have 21 of these puppies from the many boxes of crap on the Minnow. They were headed to Ebay, but if you can use them I'll make you a great deal. The 21 are new (shiny bronze) and there are also 8 used ones with a typical green patina.

Bly

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:09 pm

I found a bit of the old track up in the attic in a box of boat bits.
The old stuff was definitely 5/8ths. Or at least somewhere in the neighborhood (11/16ths!?).

Thanks Bly, I'm looking for slides for 3/4 S.S. track.
Are those chrome plated Bronze, or polished?
I guess bronze slides on S.S. track would work just fine wouldn't it?

Post by **Tim** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:43 am

Assuming you find the slides for the 3/4" track, I'd use that. I'd install it as is for now, and just change the slides on your old sail till you get a sense of things. This should be an easy modification for you to do yourself, or inexpensive if you have someone do it for you.

Something like the Strong track will go right over this external track if you decide you want it later. It should cost quite a bit less than the $1000 you quote for the Schaefer. I think I paid $650 or so for the same size and length track that you would need; this includes the slides, but not their installation on the sail.

But if you have an old sail in questionable condition, I don't think it's worth modifying it for a fancy track system just yet. When you decide you want or need a new sail, that is the time to spring for the aftermarket track. It doesn't cost any more to build the proper slides into a new sail.

The old external tracks and slides work quite well if you spray them with some silicone spray, or even WD-40. They tend to bind because the track is easily damaged; even slight bumps or dips can hang up a car. But otherwise, with some slight lubrication these tracks will continue to work well indefinitely.

I think I have some 3/4" bronze slides on an old sail. If you need them, let me know, and I can try and dig them out and check.

I can highly recommend the Strong track system. It's outstanding, and easy to install at any time--even, theoretically, with the mast stepped. I had to modify the top end of the track slightly in my installation, so I was glad the mast was on the ground. But supposedly, one shouldn't have to do any work at the top of the track.

It's expensive to buy new sails, but they really do make all the difference. And the aftermarket tracks are worth the money too. It's just tough because it all adds up so quickly, and it's difficult to do one thing and not the other...and the other...and the other!

In another now-infamous post, Figment wrote:DAMN THAT IT'S ALL CONNECTED!

It sure is.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:53 am

Seems to me that the worst of the problem with the bronze track on an aluminum stick fastenened with stainless steel screws is the inevitable electrolysis! I don't think there is any adequate fix but the problem is slowed with water-excluding sealants.

We've got the same thing on our 1970 NE 38. I'd bet you've got the same nearly 5/8" track that we do. And good luck finding replacement Tuffnol for the track-raising shim at the lower end!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:10 am

I do tef-gel on all fasteners into aluminum. Great stuff.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:13 pm

For a bronze track on an aluminum mast, a long piece of electrical tape and some tef-gel for fasters will go a long way.

Bronze is much softer and will slide more easily than stainless. Broze on bronze is good, stainless slides on bronze track will work as, I suspect bronze slides (good luck finding these) on stainless track. Stainless on stainless will work but will bind more easily and need to be lubed.

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:19 pm

My NE 38 has the same original track as the one you're considering replacing also, and I'm quite happy with it. I shoot a little McLube onto it the first time I hoist in the spring, and the sail zips up and down with no muss or fuss. Weatherbird's main was replaced with a modern-ish fully battened one by a previous owner, and he managed to get batten cars that fit the original track - grips well enough and slides up and down like a champ.

All of which has me not considering replacing what works!

Cheers,

Chris

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:15 pm

I'd happily take that bronze track :) PM me if you want to get rid of the old stuff.

Tell ya what- maybe I can get you the larger sail slides in trade?

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:59 pm

So basically it sounds like for my size boat (33') and mainsail area(~270 sq ft), There would be no discernible improvement in performance or reliability with upgrading my track from 5/8 to 7/8. (I do plan offshore cruising eventually and am trying to beef up whatever I can wherever I can.)

Am I correct in assuming this?

If thats the case, then maybe I should just install my old bronze track (no need to drill new holes :-)) and any issues I have with appearance etc. will be moot when I upgrade to the strong track.

Is the bronze external track suitable to install the strong track over?
Should I upgrade to S.S. 5/8 track anyway while I'm at this junction?

Should I maybe just make a decision already and quit running on at the mouth?
:-)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:16 pm

fusto wrote: Should I maybe just make a decision already and quit running on at the mouth?
:-)

Join the club. :)

and yeah, I think your assumptions are correct.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:50 am

fusto wrote:Is the bronze external track suitable to install the strong track over?

Yes, absolutely. The only thing to check before you proceed is to make sure that there's a Strong track for 5/8" external (I suspect there is, but you need to make sure, of course).

Here's a link to the my installation over an external bronze track.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:25 am

Tim- I get a "404 Not Found" when I click on your link.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:29 am

Fixed!

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:46 am

So as I see it, the "Strong track" is a plastic track slid OVER the existing metal track, then new slides are installed?

I fail to see the reasoning behind this, probably because I can't see it in the flesh so to speak.

I'm sort of interested, but I'm totally happy with my metal track and external slides. Sail goes up easily and comes down like it was greased- just undo the halyard and let it slide.

So what's the improvement?

Ok- just did some looking on the strong track site and I see it's for full battened mains. Since I finally got a main sail with NO battens, it would be pointless for me.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:33 pm

Did you see that? Charlie wonders about a "new" sailing part, investigates it, considers it, and decides "Nah, not for me" all in one short post!

I could have dragged that out much longer ;-)

--- R.

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:40 pm

make sure that there's a Strong track for 5/8" external

Tim, what size external track did Glissando come with if not 5/8?

If it was original bronze track from the 60's then its probably the same stuff that I have.
Which is very reassuring.
:-)

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:06 pm

LOL @ Rachel

See? I'm not a TOTAL old fogey*grin*

At least I CONSIDERED it!!

Post by **Tim** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:40 am

CharlieJ wrote:Sail goes up easily and comes down like it was greased- just undo the halyard and let it slide.

That's the ultimate point. There'd be no improvement with an aftermarket track system if your current setup works that well.

My bronze track and slides didn't work nearly that well, partly because of full battens and partly because of a few small damaged areas on the old track that tended to hang up the slides (and which areas I was unable to successfully remove, though I did minimize the problem). With the Strong track, it now drops in an instant--just the way it sounds like yours does without.

Note that the Strong track is also beneficial to newer boats. The internal mast grooves and common plastic slides that are used today are no great shakes and often hang up as well.

But the long and the short of it is that if one's current setup works well, then there's no need to change it. Full battens, which place a lot of forward force on the slides, definitely make any sail come down the track harder--unless you go with an aftermarket track. Normal battens, or none at all, would avoid this problem, of course.

fusto wrote:...what size external track did Glissando come with if not 5/8?"

I thought it was 3/4" track.

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