Relocating Cockpit Drain Through Hulls

[cliffg]

Yesterday, I was about to install my new through hulls, seacocks, and cockpit scuppers. Previously the boat had molded in nipples as the drain for the cockpit and for the hull opening, no seackok or fitting at all. Anyway, as I started assembling the pieces to test fit everything I realized that with the seacock and then a tailpiece on top would not be sufficiently below the level of the cockpit, if at all. So, I started looking about for a different solution and the only thing I can come up with is relocate the location of the through hull. The exisitng hole is just above the waterline. My question is, is there any reason why I can't place the new throug hull below the waterline? If I can I can locate them almost directly below the scuppers.

[keelbolts]

Cockpit drain thru-hulls below the waterline are OK as long as there are seacocks on them. It would be nice if we had boats big enough to drain above the waterline as we could leave the seacocks open when we leave the boat. Maybe when I win the lottery... Everybody I sail with has them below the waterline. Cross the hoses to prevent water coming up in the cockpit when you're heeled over.

[Ceasar Choppy]

I can think of few instances where you would EVER want to close your scupper seacocks. If your boat is unattended and it rains, the water has no where to go. Enough water in the cockpit and your boat will, at least grow mold in the cockpit, or at worst, sink.

ABYC recommendations require seacocks on any thru-hull below the waterline. Without getting into the argument of whether this is absolutely necessary on scupper drains below the waterline, mounting your seacocks below the waterline is accepted practice.

[cliffg]

I was pretty sure that was the case, about locating them below the water line but wanted make certain. There is always someone on this board that can provide solid answers, usually more than 1, as in this case.

I don't have to cross the lines as the scuppers I have have a ball in them that acts as a backflow preventer and plus where I look to locate the through hulls is almost directly under the scuppers, crossing the hoses wouldn't make much difference.

[Tim]

If your existing cockpit scupper outlets are above the waterline, I'd suggest that changing them to below waterline fittings is sort of a step backwards.

There are indeed few instances when one wishes to close cockpit scupper seacocks, as they need to be open to allow for regular drainage. I still think seacocks are a must on any below waterline fitting, just so that they can be closed if you want to for whatever reason. Knowing that you can close them is better than worrying about what you might do if you needed to, but couldn't. Don't tell me about plugs: I'll take a simple 1/4-turn valve over a plug any day.

Note that on small boats (like Tritons), a crowd of people in the cockpit tends to flood through the scuppers. Cocktail parties often require closing the scupper seacocks beforehand.

[cliffg]

Tim, you make a good point. However, if the point where the hose connection on the seacock and through hull ended up being higher than the connection at the scupper it wouldn't drain at all, until water in the cockpit got higher, but then there would always be some residue of water in the cockpit. So, I will have to relocate, since there's no way of installing a seacock at the exisitng location.

Now this has me thinking (which in my case, is always dangerous), I might be able to use the exisitng hole that is just above the waterline as the exit for the bilge pump. Currently there is no permanent bilge pump installed. The concern I'd have is that the hole might not be high enough for this purpose. Any thoughts?

Thanks

[Ceasar Choppy]

Tim, you make a good point. However, if the point where the hose connection on the seacock and through hull ended up being higher than the connection at the scupper it wouldn't drain at all, until water in the cockpit got higher, but then there would always be some residue of water in the cockpit. So, I will have to relocate, since there's no way of installing a seacock at the exisitng location.

Cliff,

I'm having trouble picturing from your descrition how the scupper ever drained to begin with. I suspect that it is partly because my coffee hasn't kicked in yet this morning. What you are describing sounds like the molded in drains I have on my Pearson that mainly carry water from the deck. Out of curiosity, what boat do you have?

[Rick]

I don't have to cross the lines as the scuppers I have have a ball in them that acts as a backflow preventer and plus where I look to locate the through hulls is almost directly under the scuppers, crossing the hoses wouldn't make much difference.[/quote]

cliffg - could you identify the scuppers with the ball to prevent backflow into the cockpit? Do you know where I can find them? Thanks.

[Ancient Race]

cliffg - could you identify the scuppers with the ball to prevent backflow into the cockpit? Do you know where I can find them? Thanks.

I can't locate them at present, but Perko makes a unit similar to this Seadog drain. Both are bronze. Forespar, I believe, and others make a similar drain in plastic. that I've seen on e-bay's new Express site.

[Tim]

Tim, you make a good point. However, if the point where the hose connection on the seacock and through hull ended up being higher than the connection at the scupper it wouldn't drain at all, until water in the cockpit got higher, but then there would always be some residue of water in the cockpit. So, I will have to relocate, since there's no way of installing a seacock at the exisitng location.

Now this has me thinking (which in my case, is always dangerous), I might be able to use the exisitng hole that is just above the waterline as the exit for the bilge pump. Currently there is no permanent bilge pump installed. The concern I'd have is that the hole might not be high enough for this purpose. Any thoughts?

Thanks

Cliff,

I understand why you might need to relocate the fittings to add seacocks. However, my point was actually that since your current drains are above the waterline, why worry about even adding seacocks? Why not just leave the current setup as is? Why move a drain that is not in danger of sinking the boat (being above the waterline) to a location, with or without seacock, that is always below the waterline?

The ideal is to have scuppers above the waterline. Most smaller boats don't have this capability, sadly, at least not if they have low topsides and deep cockpits. If your boat does allow this, then that sounds pretty good to me.

Maybe I'm missing something.

As to using the near-waterline fitting for a bilge pump exit: I wouldn't. I guess it depends somewhat on the type of pump, but electric pumps can set up back siphon through a submerged fitting and actually fill the boat with water when heeled.

There aren't a lot of great locations for bilge pump exits, but the counter or transom seem to work pretty well on most boats.

[Rachel]

I'm going to be replacing my cockpit drain through-hulls/gate valves while I've got the engine out, and I've got a couple of questions:

First of all, crude measuring suggests that the bottom of the cockpit sole is about 10" above the resting waterline of the boat (hence my posting in this thread), so naturally my thoughts have turned to re-routing them to exit above the waterline. I don't have anything against a good seacock installation below the waterline, in theory, so I'm not set on this, but on the other hand, the cockpit drain seacocks are the very ones you can't close when you leave the boat, so they seem the most sensible to eliminate, if any are.

My current drains have pretty nice, straight runs, with about 20" of hose between cockpit and through-hull. They exit from the forward corners of the cockpit. The cockpit scuppers are simple bronze ones and look to be in fine condition, albeit just barely 1" in diameter (more on this further down).

I didn't get any definitive answers from the A-30 group, but in re-watching Yves Gelinas "Jean-du-Sud around the world" last night (in which he takes his A-30 around), I noticed a pair of large through-hulls above the waterline, on the after part of the hull - probably just forward of the cockpit/lazarette bulkhead - that I bet were re-routed cockpit drains. I can't be sure, but I didn't see any through-hulls in the usual place (it was hard to tell though).

Possible negatives raised by the A-30 group ranged from "it's worked that way for 40 years why change it," to "the bends just below the cockpit will tend to clog with debris," to "following seas will come through the hoses and flood the cockpit." These are certainly things to consider, and I don't like to change things just for the sake of change (or to make things worse!), but OTOH I don't see any reason to keep a system like this original if there is a better way. After all, I'm not putting the gate valves back in.

Comments anyone? I'd like to get the new seacocks in this week, if possible.

The second question is related to the existing cockpit scuppers. As mentioned above, they're simple but nice bronze scuppers, but only just 1". If I replace them, it'll be with either the 1-1/2" bronze Perko's that have a 45? bend (if I run the hoses aft and have them exit above the waterline), or the straight bronze ones made by Spartan, also 1-1/2". I guess I just can't see not going up in size if I replace them.

However I would like to get the boat in the water soon, so I might like to keep the current scuppers, at least for now. On the other hand, it seems smart to put in 1-1/2" through-hulls. Is there an acceptable fitting for this application to go from 1" hose coming off the scuppers to 1-1/2" hose on the seacocks? I could make the joint above the static waterline, but not necessarily above the "really heeled" waterline.

--- Rachel

[Tim]

I may add more specific thoughts later, but allow me to say that if you can possibly locate your new through hulls above the waterline, and in a sound, prudent manner that doesn't create any additional issues, then by all means do so.

Just because "it worked" for 40 years is no reason not to strive to do better now, particularly if it means eliminating two openings below the waterline. A lot of boats have sunk because hoses let go on silly cockpit scuppers that were below the waterline. It'd be nice to eliminate at least that particular possibility.

Try to make any bends as easy as possible, and keep your hose runs as minimal as possible, but otherwise going above the waterline is an excellent thought. I wish I could do it myself.