NOTE: Due to a difference in the database backup I had, and the conversation that ensued in this thread after that date, there are some missing posts. I will be putting them back up here after this sentence, and though copied and pasted, no discussion is lost that way.
pmnfernando - "hi again
well, after some tought and the finding of a article/study about corrosion
im of the mind of using bronze despite the majority of the opinions when it comes to cast iron keels.
what governs this decision?
bronze is closer to cast iron then stainless steel. So, if you want to mix metals, do so by choosing the ones closer to each other so that the galvanic action is kept to the possible minimum.
Bronze being nobler than cast iron, will make the latter corrode, not the other way around. Meaning that the keel would corrode not the bolts.
Somehow this is makes more sense because there is a lot more iron to corrode in the first place! i guess i prefer the keel to corrode and not what keeps it bolted to my boat.
When it comes to stainless, personally, the issue is that everything might appear visually good, but underneath the keel is hanging by a thread. This is assuming all seals fail (but i think one should assume this kind of situation) meaning that, since all the bolts were replaced at the same time , they would be in the same advanced state of corrosion.
I will be, literally, pouring down white lead paste mixed with linseed oil, down the keel channels to insulate the bronze from the iron, unless someone knows of a better product to use."
CapnK - "Seems like to me that the choice of bronze is the better one. That said:
Have you considered simply encapsulating your bolt-on ballast? It would of course add wetted surface to the hull, but not being a race boat, not enough extra overall (I don't think - but I could well be wrong
) to affect performance in a negative manner.
If it could be done, I doubt it would be much more expensive (or work intensive,for that matter) than dropping and re-bolting the entire ballast keel, and in the long run, you would have no more worries about bolts and corrosion and leaking seams...?
Unless I am missing something...?"
pmnfernando - "you think that encapsulating a keel is less work intensive than replacing the bolts?!
tha i aware of, keel encapsulating is an engineering process on itself, i mean, the thing is factored into the build of the hull, this boat wasnt engineered like that not i would venture it being a DIYer.
replacing the bolts by myself (with assistance of a couple of boaters who also have never undertaken such project) is already a BIG project.
problems that i am expecting: nuts breaking, bolts getting stucked even after removal of nuts, dislodging the keel from the keel stub.
after this i need ONLY to grind the whole keel, prime it, fair it, prime it 4 more times, bolt it on (applying 4200 between the keel and keel stub), antifoul the lot. this alone will take more that a couple of weeks to achieve"
CapnK - "I do think it possible, and also probably easier!
Here's why, my thinking, glad to hear input:
You aren't taking the ballast keel off, and thereby removing the structural/mechanical support it has designed into it by the original NA, in order to then place it back where it belongs and build an entirely new structure. *That* would need engineering, no doubt.
Instead, you are simply *adding* to what is already there - which is working as it should, if suffering somewhat from age. No engineering needed, as you're not taking anything away from the existing structure, instead you are strengthening it with additional material.
If it were a wooden boat and had a rib that was splitting, you would "sister" the rib - fastening wood on both sides of the split area in order to add strength and avoid failure.
Think of it as 'sistering' the existing ballast keel - with glass.
If boats that are considered 'well built' in Katie's size range have say 3/4" of glass on their encapsulated keel, adding that to your existing keel would, I think. make it pretty much bombproof. Taper the thickness into the hull above the ballast over a foot or so and I don't think it'd affect hull shape all that much, and it should be plenty strong - the existing structure would reinforce what you have added, and vice versa.
Doing this would avoid the expense of dropping the keel, buying new bolts, getting them set, etc etc - you would simply (haha!) need to grind and clean the area for the new glass, and then put it on there.
Not 'easy', but 'easier', I think...? And stronger, afterwards. Right? Or am I missing something?"
atomvoyager - "Kurt, I had thought about that option also but either method is a big job with its own issues. Some disadvantages to encapsulating is it adds lots weight and if he uses epoxy resin is costly even if he tried to get away with only 1/2" of glass, although he'd save some of that on the bolts and crane fees and additional laborers. Since it is old cast iron he would need to take extreme care and hope that future corrosion didn't expand the keel and split or bulge the glass. He might calculate the surface area involved and come up with some numbers on costs of materials. I'd also be tempted to just glass over the old keel bolts and go with encapsulating if the numbers make sense and I was certain there was no way for water to enter later from inside or out."
CapnK - "Thanks James and you are correct both about water entering and the cost of resin. I'm going to have to crunch some numbers on that, as it is an issue that my Islander* has as well, which is why I've given it considerable thought.
There are a bunch of A-30's out there - 700 or so? - which have iron keels, and I wonder what is the number/how many have had issues with intrusion? Is it common to some extent, or more apocryphal? You would know better than I would...
I ask because I've seen lots of talk about the possibility, but have only seen maybe a half dozen people who have had the issue, or at least posted about it online. Most of those, if not all, the damage seemed that it was more from frozen water splitting the hull, instead of rust.
Regarding resin cost - perhaps some "engineering" could be done, as far as materials. What if you laid on a barrier layer of regular glass, and then topped that with carbon cloth - could you get a laminate that was thinner than the regular plain glass of production boats (and so less resin cost involved), but just as strong? Perhaps not as resistant to impact, but plenty strong WRT shear and other forces encountered under sail, not related to grounding...?
The barrier layer is to avoid galvanic action with the carbon cloth, which I understand can be an issue with some metals.
*(I think I may have licked the problem of bilge water and keel bolts, and will post up about that after I get the Forum moved to her new home.)"
atomvoyager - "The layup of various carbon/fiberglass you describe should work but I'm not familiar enough with them or the strength requirements on this type job to know exactly what would be needed here. I tend to overbuild to compensate and in this case that could end up a heavy and expensive mistake. Most of us use standard E glass fiberglass. Instead of using expensive carbon I would try to use S glass which is only slightly less strong than carbon or stronger in some respects. Vinylester resin could be substituted for epoxy to save cost. Then there's the big job of fairing all that glass and some of it working overhead around the turn of the bilge which is a young man's job ha-ha.
Of all the many A30s I've worked on and looked at I haven't seen any signs of corroding iron ballast so I'm sure it's not common. If frozen water collected in the bilge caused damage it should be easy to tell by the location of the bulging fiberglass. If it was in the ballast area then hard to know if it was freezing water within a void or expanding corroded iron. In the case of water, easy enough to drill drain holes outside and plug them later and glass over the inside of the bilge to prevent it recurring."
pmnfernando - "i honestly feel that encapsulating a keel is a far more intensive project than replacing bolts.
too much unknows too much details to handle which when out of hand lead up to catastrophic results.
and why would i want to end up with a heavier boat?!
since i gutted the boat´s interior the waterline went up by at least 3 inches. i think that, all in all, i removed 500 kg of material. some of it will go back but i still hope to have a lighter boat in the end, or at least the same weight but incorporating a 100 litre plus water tank and 80 litre diesel tank that the boat didnt had previously.
im happy with the decision of going with bronze bolts and having the chance to overhaul the keel in the process, remove all rust and making sure i take appropriate steps to prevent further corrosion down the line. these new bolts should be good for another 20-30 years, even more,
and when the time comes to sell the boat i can confidently say to the new buyer to not worry about the keel bolts, instead of saying that i encapsulated the keel by myself, which is something that would have me running from a potential buy if i was the one shopping."
pmnfernando - "since i m hauling out to replace the keel bolts, overhaul the keel i thought i might be a good oppurtunity to address the hull as well.
i was thinking of peeling the gelcoat entirely and repair any osmosis that might be present
this part its fine, i need to source/rent a gelcoat peeler and in 2 days the hull is completely stripped.
then gring he blisters, let dry, fill the low spots with thickned epoxy (do i need to laminate over the filled spots?)
i wont be applying gelcoat, paint is far superior and easier to work with.
does anyone ever done this? i am a but unsure about what produtcs and schedule to use in order to coat the hull.
any info would be precious!"
atomvoyager - "I've done a few osmosis repairs. Only once did we need to add a layer of fiberglass to the hull after stripping because the osmosis was so deep and extensive. The other times we did spot repairs with fiberglass and after the hull was dry, recoated with epoxy resin. Since you say there "might" be osmosis, let's hope there isn't. You can strip the bottom paint off with sanding or blasting and then examine the gelcoat. If there are only a few blisters then I'd only repair them without peeling the gelcoat. The gelcoat peeler I've used was very hard to control to get an even peel. You may find you end up taking off some glass as well and then you need to add glass just to fix that issue. If the gelcoat is still good and you plan to be hauled out for a couple months that it might take to thoroughly dry the hull then after that time you could apply an epoxy barrier coat over the gelcoat."
pmnfernando - "interesting you say that about the peeler
from what i saw in YT world , everybody complained about the machine weight, but they also said that if were not for its weight the whole procedure would have been more dificult. it does leave some trailing at the edges but i though you can knock those down easily with a 60 grit pass with a lightweight orbital sander.
do you recomend a specific sander for sanding the gelcoat and atacking those damaged spots?.i have a makita orbital sander which i dont like very much, that thing is good for light work, doesnt have much punch.
i was thinking about a Makita GV7000C with variable speed input (7 inch disk).
im going with alexseal products mainly because their new (18 months old) rolling additive, which bursts all the bubbles in the paint and enables a spray finish with a roller application. incredible stuff. very expensive but worth the investment, imo."
atomvoyager - "The only peeler I used was a small one, basically a converted 4.5" angle grinder with special attachments. It's light and easy to handle but at the expense of harder to keep it level. And with all the curves of the hull it isn't easy to control. I don't know the issues you might have with whatever peeler you use but that was my experience so use caution.
For big tough sanding jobs like removing bottom paint and sanding the nonskid down on a deck I also use a 7" sander/polisher. For grinding out spots of osmosis and prepping old unwanted thru-hulls for glassing over, etc, I use a #36 grit sanding pad on the 4.5" angle grinder. For more control of say removing excess glass after putting on a patch or interior grinding when I don't want the over-aggressive cutting of the angle grinder but better cutting than a random orbital sander I use a DEWALT Rotary Sander, Variable Speed, 5-Inch (DWE6401DS) with 60 grit hook and loop paper. It works like a variable speed grinder. I can only use it for 10 minutes at a time though because it overheats quickly so I can't really recommend it and would try a different brand if one were available.
I also heard about the Alexseal rolling additive. Are you talking about using it for the topsides or deck painting? I guess it allows you to roll without tipping? I might try it next time because I found it difficult to get the Alexseal to flow and level out doing roll and tip on vertical surfaces."
pmnfernando - "about the peeler i was talking about the gelpeel pro from paintshaver, which costs 1500 USD. heavy stuff but seen it on YT it really delivers.
Thanks for the tool tips. it did confirmed some of my choices so that was great
Yes, that additive allows one to roll without tipping over it. i.ve came across it on Boatworks Today, another vlogger, and the results are fantastic, its really user friendly. the additive itself aint that expensive (40/50 usd) and you use 10 ml per quart mixed, so it goes a long way.
i guess that sticking to what the manufacturer recomends and using their products also produces good results and for that reason i am going to apply their fairing compounds, finish primers and topcoat to keep everything compatible
I plan to use on both decks and topside. for the interior im going with interlux products as most of it isnt visible and for the visible bits one makes an effort and preps the surface a bit better."
wrfindlay - "Just found this thread! Im glad I’m not the only one who is restoring a pioneer 9. I got mine in November 2020 at a local boat yard and have been attempting to get it into sailable order for this season (I’m in Northern Ireland). It was a bathtub (had 4/500l of stagnant water inside) when I got it but am hoping I can get the mast up this week or next! So progress has been good! I’d put a couple of pics here but can’t seem to figure out how to compress them enough from my phone! to see some have a look at my Instagram page where I’ve been documenting my progress https://instagram.com/wee_boat_resto
I’d be interested how the lines have been run to the jammers and winch on the coach roof as that is something I’d like to do at some point.
I’d also be interested in a few closer pics of your main sheet track arrangement as mine doesn’t have one! "
pmnfernando - "Hi Great to have another Pioneer 9 owner onboard here in the forum!
I cant understand how to upload photos in this newer version of the forum.
i try to attach a file but it doesnt work.
send me your email and i will send it there"
pmnfernando - "I have been searching for 1 inch silicon bronze all thread and been failing miserably at finding it
i did found some 1 onch rod but the price is simply thru the roof. im talking about 2400 USD total.
i guess its time to browse other alternatives
what about mild steel?
and if so does anyone recommend a suitable painting/isolation/protection schedule, to act as barrier between it and the cast iron
wrfindlay - "Hi Have sent you a private message. <---(Note: That PM has unfortunately been lost in the software change, please resend if needed. Sorry, and Thanks! Kurt)
From what I can see is that each photo has to be smaller then 500KB (0.5MB) and my phone takes photos and they are closer to 2500KB (2.5MB) each!!
Im afraid i can't offer much help on the keel bolt front. My boat had an encapsulated keel and keel bolts but the encapsulation was extremely thin (1 layer of light fibreglass) and had been damaged and repaired so i removed it and ground the keel back to bright steel and then epoxy primed and painted it. My keel bolts had been encapsulated in some sort of resin which I chipped away and removed as i wanted to see them! They had some surface rust but were in good condition. From what I can tell they are simply plain steel (Possibly High tensile steel?). "