Rub Rail Modifications

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:15 am

I have the same project planned for the spring and also planned to use ipe. Mine is replacing an existing teak caprail that is in bad shape. Unfortunately I don't own a band saw. Any thoughts on the best method for making the radius cuts and the scarfs without one? I have about every other tool known to man.

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:24 am

Tom,

I wouldn't let the absence of a bandsaw deter you. For a substitute, I would use a saber saw with aggressive bi-metal 3-6 tpi blades. The surface will be rough, but not much more so than the bandsaw blades I'm using. I rough the scarf joints with the bandsaw, but refine the long faces of the joint with a sanding disc attachment on the table saw. A chisel is needed to go where the sanding disc can't reach. One could use that same sanding disc to smooth the outside edge of the rail. Rasps, files, and handheld sanders could be used for the inside curve. Again, I find card scrapers are cheap and very effective tools when surfacing hardwoods like Ipe.

Joe

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:17 am

Nothing beats a band saw with a really heavy stand,, large wheels, true and adjustable table, etc., but like Joe says, a saber saw will work too. For the curve of the pieces you may find you even like using a circular saw. They will do gradual curves better than one might think. I have hand fed gradual curves on a table saw as well.

The final fit of a classy scarf joint will be done with hand tools any way. A bench disc sander, or an improvised one like Joe describes can be of help as well, but in the end your skills with a chisel will be put to the test. Take the time to make a nice pattern of the joint to assure both meeting pieces match, then tweak the fit by hand.

I find cap rail projects very satisfying. And if you set up staging around the boat you can avoid kneeling. Now that is something by itself!

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:30 pm

After getting zero work accomplished in January, I’ve started to move forward again on the rails. This afternoon, I rounded the stern and am ready to go up the starboard side.

Joe

rshowarth · Post by **rshowarth** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:57 pm

Post by **Tim** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:08 am

Nice work, Joe!

Thanks for the update.

Post by **CapnK** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:18 pm

Wow, that is looking *great*, and what a good place to use Ipe.

Thanks for the inspiration!

Ancient Race · Post by **Ancient Race** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:15 pm

Beautiful Joe. I really like the elegance of the taffrail-to-caprail joint.

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:39 pm

Thanks for all the kind words!!

Joe

Tony G · Post by **Tony G** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:18 pm

Sawwweet! Tell me, Joe, when did you first come up with the idea of building a classic wooden boat? Seriously, that toe rail alone will set new standards for most of us. Add in the eyebrows and a couple of other surprises we haven't even seen yet and there is going to be some serious boat envy out there. This is not just kind words...this is telling like it is.

Are you planning on having any sort of bowsprit/achor platform or any other kind of wood adornment on the pointy end?

Whew! I gotta check back more ofter!

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:36 am

Tony,

Add in the eyebrows and a couple of other surprises we haven't even seen yet

Hopefully, there won't be too much more to modify around the decks of the boat. I’ve milled some extra eyebrow molding stock, and I’m planning on running it around the perimeter of the cockpit foot well, but with the weather improving, I would like to get back to paint prep. That may be done after I paint the decks. Also, I think there is room for improvement over the factory Triton sliding hatch, and the plan is to build one from scratch. Every once in while, I get this tremendous itch to apply a veneer to the cabin trunk sides………. Nah! So, that should be about the extent of the exterior modifications. I have some thoughts on interior woodwork that should keep me busy for several more years though.

Are you planning on having any sort of bowsprit/achor platform or any other kind of wood adornment on the pointy end?

Right now, the plan is to construct an anchor platform that will fit in the gap between the two rail sections. However, I remain acutely interested in the discussion on the forum about converting a Triton to modified cutter rig. That remains a possibility, although an unlikely one.

As Robert has said, I see the deficiencies that the camera does not betray given the resolution limitations of Photobucket. Still, I’m pleased so far with the results, but have been unable to get back to it to finish the starboard side lately.

Thanks,

Joe

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:56 pm

Joe,

I'm finally ready to start the caprail project I claimed I was starting last spring. Before I pull the trigger on the Ipe order I thought I would check back with you and see how the ipe has held up and what adhesive you ended up using. I have dips in my caprail at the bow and stern that originally were cut from 4x5 stock. I would normally resaw lumber and laminate these pieces but Ipe's reputation for glueing poorly is giving me pause.

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:18 pm

Tom,

I traded my Triton project for a Tartan 34c project, so I can't say how the ipe is holding up or how the adhesive issue has worked.

Do you have any pictures of these thicker sections you're talking about laminating?

Joe

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:55 pm

I went through all of my digital images but couldn't find a good shot of the caprail dips. The boat is a Westsail 32. The caprail dips down at both the bow and stern. Here is a reference page from the Westsail Construction Manual.

The manual calls for these pieces to be a cut from a 4x5x25 block. Each block will yield 2 pieces. The largest Ipe I can find is 4x4 and this is an internet source so I can't examine the wood prior to purchasing. If I can get good adhesion I could glue a piece of 5/4 to the 4x4 to get the desired thickness. Using this method I could use fastners to strengthen the joint. Alternatively I could resaw some ipe and laminate the pieces. This method would rely exclusively on the glue bond.

I am also concerned about end checking as I have read that this can be a problem with ipe.

One good thing. You motivated me to figure out how to post pictures. Yipee, I'm unleashed!

Post by **Tim** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:05 am

I would give laminating a try. What have you got to lose?

Teak isn't known for its great inherent glue-ability either, but with proper preparation and care teak has been being laminated by builders for years. Can Ipe really be any more resistant to glue bonds than teak? I've never worked with Ipe so I don't know, but I bet you can have success.

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:34 am

Tom,

Wood species are like people, in that they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Ipe has a few virtues that I would say make it ideal for certain parts of a boat. It’s resistance to abrasion and strength are better than teak, and far better than mahogany. It’s resistance to rot is said to be better than virtually any other wood out there, and it is dimensionally stable. The negatives are that it is definitely harder most other woods, and is unbelievably stiff, with questionable gluing properties.

The Westsail end pieces are going to be challenging. Your lamination sections will have to be very thin to take the bend, but strategic kerf cuts along the bend s(about half way though the stock) with a narrow cut back saw will help thicker stock take the bend. I would fill these saw cuts with epoxy thickened with Ipe saw dust, and I don’t see them being very visible. Stagger the kerfs as you stack the laminations.

Conversely, you could carve this “S” profile in two sections with a scarf joint in the middle. That way, you wouldn’t need as large of a starting piece to begin with. That’s some tricky woodworking, to be sure to get it just right. I would do the scarf joint first (with two large blocks of wood), and then carve the two curves on either side. Definitely do this before you do any other rail sections. You don’t want to add to the complexity of making your end sections fit to your long rail sections, even if you are using a simple butt joint. If you do it in pine or basswood first, you'll have a good 3-D model of the piece to help you shape the Ipe. Ipe is a hard wood, but that makes it a great candidate for abrasive style carving with rasps, files, or dremmel tools.

With regard to the glue issue, I would say that I wouldn’t think of making large edge-jointed table tops or laminating columns with this species, but it seems to me that small joints, properly prepared, glued with resorcinol and backed up with mechanical fasteners might work for things like your rail.

Ipe is a very beautiful wood.

Now that you know how to post photos, I hope you will share the project with rest of us.

Joe

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:53 am

I think you will find Ipe a reasonable substitute for teak. Be ready to replace blades and bits more often, the stuff is hard. I have worked with the stuff, but can't speak first hand of how it stands up long term.

You will note in the directions and sketch that they instruct you to establish the shape, cut out a piece too large by leaving a margin, then lay out again to cut the final piece. It may not be apparent to every one why this is suggested. When a curve is cut from large stock it releases strains within the board. Now that your new piece has part of the old strains, but not other parts that may have been opposing, the new piece may change shape from what you cut out. By releasing these strains while approaching the new shape, but still having enough material to account for the distortion that may occur you can end up with what you need.

The amount of distortion is related to the direction of the grain in your stock. If the piece has a lot of run out (where grain exits the side of the board), the distortion may be great. If the grain is very straight, there may be very little. It is always best to use this double cutting method to be sure.

If you laminate 4/4 or 5/4 to make your 5 x 4 then this will not really be necessary.

When you mention laminate, did you mean laminate stock then cut to shape? Or did you mean make a mold of the curve and laminate to the curve? Laminated stock would accent the seams as they would appear as run out. I'm not so sure it would matter a lot here, but something to consider.

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:01 pm

When you mention laminate, did you mean laminate stock then cut to shape? Or did you mean make a mold of the curve and laminate to the curve?

Both actually! If I fabricate the piece as shown in the drawing I would use a section of 5/4 glued to a piece of 4x4 to get the desired width. If the 4x4 stock exhibits splits or excessive checking I will need to laminate to a form. Probably using 3/32 or so laminates. The second method would obviously be totally reliant on the glue bond.

The 4x4 is $8.75 per linear foot so I will definitely do a test run to practice my technique. I will probably mill patterns out of 1/2 mdf for the entire caprail. Then I can rough cut the ipe for the flat sections on a bandsaw and finish with a flush trim bit in a router using the mdf as a guide.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:42 pm

Capn_Tom wrote: If I fabricate the piece as shown in the drawing I would use a section of 5/4 glued to a piece of 4x4 to get the desired width.

If you do this you will want to lay out, rough cut, then lay out and cut again as I described above. The 5/4 will not stabilize the strains in the 4x4 much at all. Your template idea is a good one. I don't like using routers like you describe, but that's me. If it works for you, do it.

Clinton B Chase · Post by **Clinton B Chase** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:26 pm

Unfortunately, the pictures don't show. I am very interested in learning about how this project was done.

Clint

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Clint,

If you are talking about the pictures of the rail work on Triton 114, I don’t keep them online anymore since I no longer have the project. I’ve felt that the professionals that frequent the forum have a much better idea of how best to do this kind of work, and usually freely offer it. However, I do have them on disc, and would be happy to email selected ones to you or maybe send you a CD with what you’re looking for.

Joe