Luders 33 Re-power

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:36 pm

Well, it looks like the ol' Westerbeke 27A bit the big bazooka on the initial light off. I knew carbon was built up in the head because it is difficult to start. In fact, one of the projects for this coming winter was to haul the engine, have it inspected and have the upper end "De-carboized." On the third round of tries to start the engine, she fired off. When it finally ran, it sounded better than I remember. The new voltage regulator was kicking in just fine and all was happy until just about the time it was up to temperature. Suddenly it started Rap-rap-rap. Definitely metal to metal I thought so I slowed it down, the rapping slowed down and got a "little" quieter but it was still there so I shut it down.

Yes there was oil, yes there was water to the engine.

After talking with two separate diesel mechanics, the prognosis is not good. I will have it looked at just in case I miss diagnosed the sound but it is looking like there is a Beta Marine 28 in my future. I love the idea of the new engine since I never really have been comfortable with the Westerbeke. It is just the timing. We don't really have the $10-12K to drop on the boat and it is in the middle of the freekin' summer. I will not be getting off the dock until mid August.

The other projects that get piled on top of replacing the engine is to clean the nasty bilge and get it bilge coated, while I am at it, to paint the remaining areas of the cockpit lockers. I need to redo the instrument panel so I am thinking of filling in the existing spot and mounting the panel a little further aft to make it easier for me to reach with these short arms. I also want to drain and clean out the fuel tank.

The biggest problem is that after spending the spring cleaning her up and redoing all the electrical, followed by hassles from the boatyard when I wanted to launch (They launched almost 1 full month after I told them I would be ready). She is finally in, the wife and I wanted nothing more than to head out for an overnight. Now I feel like I have been kicked in the teeth.

It will be tough to get a lot of work done when your heart needs to take a sail on your own boat.

Soon enough I guess. I will keep you posted on the progress and take some pictures.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:16 pm

Just lash the dink to the transom for pusher-power? a night on the hook is a night on the hook.

Might just be that a valve got hung open. New valves all 'round, perhaps a new piston, you could salvage the season yet.

And thank god for wednesday nights. Two years ago I was aaaaaalmost ok with not launching for the year as long as I had wednesday nights.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:29 am

LazyGuy wrote:It is just the timing.

There's no good timing for something like this, unfortunately. A repower is a big event, at least from the money side, and when the expense is unplanned for, it's a tough one to take.

The first step, as has been suggested, is to ensure that there's no hope at all for the engine. You need the coroner to truly pronounce it DOA before you lose all hope. But since you've apparently already been of the mindset that the old engine is less than idea, I doubt you'll want to throw a whole lot of money at repair attempts for an engine that you weren't that fond of to begin with. Still, if there is a reasonable fix (and there may not be), it'd be worth it to salvage what remains of the season, after which you can reassess on a more convenient time schedule.

I won't blithely suggest that you simply go off sailing engineless, since the realistic constraints of life, schedules, and your mooring/docking situation probably make such a thing difficult to impossible. But it is theoretically an option, of course. If you have a good dinghy and motor, you could always fall back on that as a yawl boat if required. It all depends on the entirety of the situation and what you're comfortable (or not) with.

Good luck, in any event, and keep us posted.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:13 pm

Thanks guys,

The minimum expense is about $2K that will more than likely turn into $4K and that goes a long way toward the new engine. I don't want to turn the worst case for the new engine into worst case plus $4k. I thought about the dink as a yawl boat but at 50 years old I am not sure how much yawl boating with a 5hp against almost 7 ton I could take. I would certainly do it if I had to but it is not the first choice. Plus, according to the mechanic, I would be back in by mid August for the September cruise and fall sailing which is certainly my favorite time of year for sailing.

Drew has not looked at the engine so the coffin is not closed yet.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:51 am

Don't ask me to explain. I went down to the boat, after making arrangements with the mechanic to repower and with the yard to haul. It was all going to start next Friday. Since I couldn't get the alternate mechanic to the boat to verify that what I heard was metal to metal, a relatively knowledgeable friend and I started the engine. It ran fine. Came up to temp, fine, in fwd, fine. In reverse, fine so we ran it for over an hour at the dock. There was a little squeaking from the engine mounts in a slow rough idle but other than that, the engine is running smooth.

Today I will be getting a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil and adding it along with three quarts of oil for a 10-20 hour run to do a cleanup on the lubrication system before I replace the oil again.

I feel soooooo lucky.

While a new diesel has moved considerably higher on my list, it is not on my list for today.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:14 pm

Tease!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:32 am

Alright, get in here. It's "group therapy" time.
Poor bastaad.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:01 pm

Yeah, here is the full story:

My sister and brother-in-law came down for their annual sail on Paper Moon. Saturday morning Jack and I went out to the mooring to bring her into the dock while the wimmin made sandwiches and packed the cooler. I opened everything up and then started the engine. Once she started, the low oil pressure alarm didn't turn off. So I quickly shut her down and headed below. Lifted the stairs, placed them out of the way and before I opened the door I decided to check the bilge. That was where I found my 4 quarts of oil.

With flashlight in hand I looked and felt around. The filter was still in place, there was no pooling above the engine pan, no oil lines or other obvious source so I reached around the pan. The first lap around the pan was at the wall of the deeper sump. My hand was not dry but it was not what I was looking for. So I then ran my had across the bottom of the pan and found a very rough patch in the aft port corner that was very oily and full of grit. Yup, that was what I was looking for. So a hole in the oil pan is no big deal until you add up the other trouble I have had AND that problem was not what either mechanic assumed to be the problem (3 years ago I filled the back cylinder with seawater through the exhaust). So if I fix it, which of the other two issues will rear their ugly head next, or will it be a new problem.

This is it, I am done crossing my fingers every time I hit the pre-heat. We are hauling October 1 and I am in line for a new Beta 28 with a 65 amp alternator, upgraded panel (RPM, Temp, Oil Pressure and Volts) and single lever control. New diesel is expensive but peace of mind is priceless.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:25 pm

oh, come now it can't be as neat and tidy as all that! Surely you're going to reconfigure the exhaust or upgrade the soundproofing or add a hydraulic PTO for the windlass and bow thruster while you're at it!

At the very least you'll have to replace part of the cockpit sole with lexan so you can gaze pridefully at your new toy.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:59 am

I was considering the plexi cockpit but I can't seem to find a plexi fuel tank because it is between the engine and the cockpit sole. I am going to take advantage of the extra reaching room and redo the rudder tube as well as clean out the fuel tank. I have pictures of the oil pan that I will TRY to post this evening.

I am also re-thinking the location of the controls. I don't think I want to do the swing out panel but I am looking forward to the single stick control. For me, knowing I am in Neutral when I start the engine will be another "priceless"

More info soon!

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:41 pm

Here is the leak

Here is the next leak would be if I fix the existing leak. You are looking at the oil removal tube where it enters the oil pan.

Life goes on

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:22 pm

Here is the old girl (read slang for prostitute where girl is written) as she was before being ripped from her mounts. Click any thumbnail for better view.

The open void

Dale had to take the engine apart for the bone yard to take it as scrap metal. Here is the upper end. I didn't get a close up of the burnt seats on the #4 and $3 cylinders. Man, it was ugly

Speaking of ugly, here is the straw that broke the camel's back. The oil pan.

Next will be the clean bilge. Hopefully it will appear soon after the high pressure sprayer.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:36 pm

A lot of belt dust around that alternator.
How much load does that mojito-chiller draw anyway?

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:30 pm

There is no mechanized Mojito-chiller. The largest "non-starter" load is a fan but getting the engine started was a major drawdown event so the alternator spent most of it's operating time recharging the crank battery.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:31 pm

Poke.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:08 pm

I owe pictures I know that. The latest is that the 30 hp Phasor is down in Dale's shop. She is a beauty. Then we took the measurements for the beds but after doing a little prodding found that the pressure treated beds were more rotted than first believed so they had to come out. Once the beds were out, the fiberglassed plywood sump came up delaminated. So we are stripping her down further.

I am getting a quote from Nick the mad Turk for the sake of time. If he is anywhere near reasonable, which I doubt he will be, I will have him build the beds. Otherwise, I will be making time.

At least I will have additional access to the bilge to get it cleaner.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:08 am

LazyGuy wrote:I owe pictures I know that.

At your leisure. (As long as it's now.)

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:32 am

Here we go. The phasor is a sweet little engine. My sole complaint is that the oil sending unit is hanging of the starboard side like a highway peg on a motorcycle.

90 Amp Alternator to keep my three Group 27's fed, Balmar 3stage regulator

MG-360 Twin-disc transmission (a first for both the mechanic and myself)

Sure is going to be a pain to paint all the replacement oil filters silver. Nice silicon Blue hose. Doesn't clash with the silver paint.

We can't figure out why the brackets for the engine mounts have the 1 1/2" slots. Those will either be going away or Dale will weld washers in place to eliminate a potential source of movement.

An Asian block (Kubota), Italian transmission (like Ferrari), assembled in America. Yup, I am keeping the world economy moving.

Fig, do your worst on the photos.

I will be heading down to the yard this morning to take a few pictures of the missing engine beds.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:57 am

Nice silicon Blue hose. Doesn't clash with the silver paint.

Oh, I hate it when my engines aren't properly color coordinated, I mean, it's just not Done!

Perhaps the slotted brackes are to accomodate differently spaced motor mounts for a drop-in replacement?

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:22 pm

Color coordination in the engine room is at least as important as coordinating the sail cover with the bunk cushions.

My understanding is that the standards for engine beds is 16" and 24". (Just like wall studs on a house) The slots will "almost" make 14" but not 20." It is probably so that they can use the same bracket on "all engines under 38 hp" or something like that.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:09 pm

LazyGuy wrote:Sure is going to be a pain to paint all the replacement oil filters silver.

I think the filters would look nice if you painted them blue to match the hoses, actually.

Thanks for the photos. I'm looking forward to hearing how the installation--and particularly the operation--goes for this engine. All information to be stashed away for the "next" time.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:42 am

Should I use Awlgrip or Brightsides on the filter? NO I DIDN'T ASK THAT QUESTION!! 843 posts later, I would be using Awlgrip on the oil filters.

Tim, I am looking forward to how this works out also. The mechanic had knee surgery, then the beds had to come out. Who ever put those engine beds in, must have used at least two tubes of 5200 on each one - man that stuff is tough. Today I will head down with the sawzall to get the old plywood sump out and start working on getting back to the hull fiberglass there.

I could easily spend all next summer getting this thing perfect. That is not an option. I have to concentrate on the things that must be done while the engine is out and save the remaining items for later when time and money allow.

Little room for argument that the beds and sump are a "do-over"

In addition I am working on mounting the control panel. The panel is great, it is the Lexan cover with access holes for the ignition and stop button that has me stumped (for right now)

The panel will be mounted just above the cockpit sole fwd stbd. It will be recessed, at an angle so I can look down from the tiller and see it better. This piece (photo below) will be mounted to a piece of plywood that will attach to the boat inside the cockpit locker and fiberglassed in. Yes, I will provide pictures as the plan unfolds.

The control panel:

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:01 pm

Venturing into the workshop in your bathrobe to take pics for the forum. Now that's the kind of dedication we like to see!

Is that exhaust elbow going to work?

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:49 pm

Ha ha! It isn't a bathrobe it is a weird sweatshirt I found in New Hampshire when the temp dropped to 50 deg in July. It is almost like it is inside out. Real warm and I like to wear it when working in the basement/shop.

The exhaust elbow is not going to work. Dale knew that before the engine was delivered. He is working on a riser.

One thing about Dale is that he has no qualms about making/creating/machining parts to make it work. You know the rule "No job too small, no fee too large." In reality, I think he IS actually trying to save me some money here and there.

I am going to be trying a product called Marine Clean from POR. The stuff is advertised for cleaning out tanks when mixed with hot water and it will clean up an oily bilge. Water soluble and biodegradable. I will try using it on the bilge and in the old monel fuel tank.

I will be adding the diesel return line through the wall of the fill pipe right above the tank with an elbow and a tube to the bottom of the tank. It will be too low to interfere with the fill pump.

You will be hearing from me again.... and again...

Post by **Tim** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:12 am

Is that the standard panel, or an upgrade?

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:18 am

Tim,

I am not sure. I believe it is the standard but I will check with Dale. We had already agreed that tach, oil pressure and water temperature were the absolute minimum.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:47 am

What is it about the splash-cover that has you stumped?

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:59 pm

Fig,

The original thought was to have the recessed panel molded right in. You know, nice smooth radius, Awlgrip etc... and that panel meets that idea. Then I started asking myself about protection (the splash guard). It would be fairly easy to mold in the recess for a piece of plexi but it needed to be removable for access to the key and stop switch.

The old panel had a plexy cover for the instruments with the typical round key hole with the the small round piece that pivots plus an overall removable cover. I liked it because there was a full cover for when the engine was not being used. I didn't like it because when removed, the panel was easy to loose, step on etc...

So I think I am resigned to a full cover that has an oval access hole for the key and stop but I may do a slider that slides forward over the hour meter.

It just will not be that clean installation that I was hoping for.

Dale would prefer that I put the panel high so that it will not get wet if the cockpit fills. That ain't gonna happen because the only place I can do that is on the bulkhead. That would look hideous.

Any ideas?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:25 pm

How about a slider that goes vertically instead of horizontally? Sort of a "double-hung" splash guard. Gravity is your friend.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:10 am

What about a one-piece, hinged cover panel? Do you have enough depth to fit the key completely behind such a cover?

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:26 am

Confession:

I got the measurements wrong on the dashboard so I will be starting again from scratch. That said, the new one will look very similar only a bit wider and a bit shorter.

Yes, the key is completely inside the dash so I could close a cover over the key. Maybe that is the answer. Hinged on the forward end with lift off hinges.

Hmmmm.

Thanks guys.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:33 am

I answered my own question from before.

According to the Phasor Marine website, the panel you have is optional equipment.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:42 am

It is not complete yet but the engine beds are done, I just need to paint a little more to make it all look as good as the work that I have put in. So here is ground zero. The engine, rotten engine beds and rotten plywood sump are gone as is the 4-5 tubes of 3M-5200 that were used to hold the old rotted pressure treated engine beds.

Dale, the mechanic made this really cool jig out of two old couplings, an old shaft and the rear engine mounts off of the Phasor. It worked great.

I started by installing the front pillars using vinylester resin mixed with chopped fiberglass. The outboard fore and aft piece is filleted and there is a cut in the inboard piece for the left over fiberglass from the old plywood sump. It was rock solid so I used it. This also allowed me to leave a space for drainage.

The problem is that there was nothing on the hull to reference. I got each piece of structural glass as close as I could at the back end and used 5 min epoxy to stick a couple pieces of scrap fiberglass. That way I could install the bed repeatedly at the same point for measurement each time I made a change. Then I cut the front supports and installed the angle with a double thickness on the top at the request of the mechanic.

Once everything measure out 12 times for height where the jig slid up and down the bed with no more than about 1/8” to spare. Here it is all clamped up.

Once everything was stuck, I started my not too pretty job of installing mat, Biaxial and thickened resin. By the time I was done, the rear one third of both engine mounts were stuffed with anything that would ensure they would stay in place.

The barrier coat that I am using on everything is not hiding my “not too pretty” glass job but I really don’t care. I am confident that you can pick up the boat using the new engine beds.

Once the engine is installed, I will be installing a sump that I will build in the basement and there will also be a fiberglass bracket that will connect the two sides at the front.

The entire project is behind schedule but the boat is located in the prime parking lot so I know that the yard manager will be pushing Dale to finish soon.

Next set of pictures will be the tank going back in. That should be next weekend.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:44 pm

The entire project is behind schedule...

Is it ever anything different?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:31 pm

Barrier coat?

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:57 pm

Epoxy based paint on sale for $65/gal. Impervious to most things and it will last.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:26 am

In another thread, LazyGuy wrote:I was moving Paper Moon up to Ram Island. The new diesel purrs like a kitten and after a little clean up, I will be posting pictures.

I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions of the new engine once you've had a chance to run it for a while, and would love to see the final installation as well.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:09 pm

Tim.

I will be doing a full project wrap-up within the next week. First weekend/first sail was out standing. The funniest thing is that because the diesel starts so easily, I am no longer worried about batteries.

When/if you are down to see Fig. it would be a great excuse to see the installation first hand and go for a sail on Paper Moon.

Cheers

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:50 am

OK, so it is more than a week since I promised the wrap up. I do not think that I have been on the internet for more than about 1/2 hour since mid June (a good thing) > Nowthe project is over. I am in the water and the engine is running like a top. While it is not possible to justify emotion for an inanimate object, I love my engine. After the Westerbeke 27 and crossing my fingers every time I tried to start the beast, I am, for the first time, comfortable with the engine.

Differences between the Beta that I almost installed and the Phasor that is installed boils down to advertising. The Beta is well advertised and very few have even heard of Phasor. One of the reasons I feel that the Phasor is a better engine is that the 28 Hp Beta uses the 1005 block (1001cc) and the Phasor downgrades the 1105 block (1123cc) for 28 horse. The price difference also weighed heavy. The Beta was a little over $1000 more and all you really get is a much prettier book with color photos and circles and arrow while Phasor forwards the book they got from Kubota.

One of Beta’s selling points is that it is a direct replacement for many engines. I knew that was not applicable to me since my engine was mounted on two 4X4s that were largely held in place with 3M-5200. While I would never try and hold an engine in place with 5200, I can tell you that it works. I can also tell you that 52 Million does release with heat. The beds were removed with a 2-Ton come-along a knife and a touch.

The installation of the engine beds was another adventure. If I were to do it again I would do it differently but I do not know how. The two fiberglass 3/8” X 4” angles with the flanges facing up and inboard worked. Also, packing the void between the angle and hull at the aft end with the structural polyester filler that looks like the hair ball I pull from the tub works. The final application of the biaxial mat over the whole thing to finish off the back end also went well. It was the front end that was supported on the 4” angle posts that was not an obviously more than adequate job.

The one fact that kept me up at night is that while I know that the fiberglass work was “adequate” it only takes poor adhesion on one layer to make the whole thing weak. I understand that is why we lay progressively larger pieces of material so that any one failure will be captured and the outside two layers can fall off leaving adequate strength but dang. Did I do it right. Am I going to hear a big thunk to look at my brand new engine and see it sitting at a 45 degree angle?

The engine went in, the beds held. I breathed a huge sigh of relief. Even the alignment was damn near perfect. When the mechanic ran the engine he said that there was a little too much shaking at the front end so I went back to McMaster-Carr (Thank you Tim) for a piece of ½” 4X6 angle and I tied the front end of the engine beds to the bulkhead that makes the front of the engine compartment with bolts. I can again sleep without visions of engines at 45 degree angles.

The tank cleaning with Marine Clean (a POR product) went outstanding. I can see clean monel at the bottom of the tank. Holding the tank back in place with biaxial glass (versus the original alternating layers of mat and woven roving – yes, same thing) I added some 3M-52,000,000 to the area where the tank touches the mount. As one of my projects for next winter, I will probably figure out some sort of additional mechanical support for the tank but for now, suspending the tank under the cockpit floor worked for 42 years, there is no reason it will not work for another 20 which will be about one year after I am done with the boat.

So here is the original engine before she was removed:

The burnt out #4 and #3 cylinders on their way to the recycle bin

The hole

The beds (finished the first time) and almost painted out see below for additional bracing added later. Used Interlux barrier coat - The epoxy paint was cheaper than the bilge coat and I figured that epoxy paint would be tougher than urethane in a bilge.

The engine just prior to the crane lifting her into her new home.

The new control panel – I am still making a plexi cover with a sliding door to keep the water out.

The engine in place

The final photo with the additional support for the beds bolted in place.

I have used the boat most weekends and I am again in love with the boat but I am planning on doing no big projects for the next two years. I am going to enjoy the boat .

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Luders 33 Re-power

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