Plastic Classic Forum

Whaaat!!!

Tim has been posting a new boat blog for almost a week and I am just now finding out about it?!!!

What else are you trying to keep secret from me?...

-Britton

OK, I gotta go find that .....



( found it - nice trailer )

Slackers, all!

Start your search at lackeysailing.com.

Well, he did drop a big ol' hint.

Oh, I figured he was shifting gears, warming up the boat shop, but I didn't expect the blog. Maybe I should have. It will be good to have something to talk about again :-)

OK, so let me see if I can figure out how many boats are at the shop now.

• Glissando (of course)
  Kaholee
  Pixie
  A different Allied Seabreeze, (of which we seem to know very little)
  Dancing crab (maybe ?)
  Dorothy G
  The Lyman 23
  And isn't Dasien there too ?

So I am thinking eight.

Eight boats.

Isn't eight boats enough for anyone ?[/list]

Mark
S/V Calypso

Dancing Crab isn't there?that job was finished back in the old shop.

Yes, Dasein is there.

Will kaholee have an aluminum access hatch on both seats and at the engine access area as well?

Yes, the plan is one of these on each seat and a third one on the cockpit sole. There will be a similar 9-inch round hatch on the poop deck and a 7-inch round port located abaft the rectangular hatch on the cockpit sole for access to the fuel tanks clean out port.

Allen,

That will certainly be nice (and bulletproof)!!! That's yet another excellent solution to the early Triton lockers.


Joe

I would think that metal hatch would get very hot in the sun...perhaps not the nicest thing to sit on.

Nice!

Those hatches will definitely heat up. I cursed once or twice on my last cruise in Maine when I hopped on mine with bare feet. A rope mat or cockpit grate would be nice on the cockpit sole. Can I assume you are going with cockpit cushions? If you weren't thinking about it you might want to. You will be frying your morning eggs on those things when you are anchored off those Bahamian Cays.

Let's see, that looks like a thousand bucks in cockpit hatches so far...

Allen, I hope you are prepared for an expensive summer! :-)

-Britton

Call me slow (Mark - you are really slow) but I just realized we have the owner and the (re)builder here on the forum.

Congratulations guys - this should be fun !

Tim and I discussed the heat issue. You can get these hatches either without paint, as we did, or painted white. Since we are planning on going with a light gray for the non-skid and will be painting the hatches to match we went with the non-painted ones. The cockpit seat hatches will be covered most of the time with cushions and I am getting a complete cockpit enclosure (dodger, side curtains, bimini) so when at anchor they will not be in the sun.

Yes, it is going to be a fairly expensive few months, but most of the interior components have already been purchased. Major exterior system-wise I still have the roller furler, and cockpit enclosure to purchase. The other big ticket item is the Beta Marine diesel engine and related components including Britton's fuel tank. Spouse is acting as the budget manager and has all this under control though, at least we hope she does. :)

Yes, it should be a blast, you can probably imagine how excited I am about finally getting this off the ground. I've been trying go get the time to do all this myself for years, but since I'm on the road for work all the time it just wasn't happening. I liked Tim's anchor platform and had him build me one. During this project we got to joking about me just bringing Kaholee out to Maine and having him do the work. The joke turned into reality in April of 06 when my buddy Pat and I hauled her all the way from Truth or Consequences to Whitefield. I am redoing Kaholee's web site and should get the trip details posted over the Christmas/New Years holidays. Needless to say that was an adventure in itself.

As an aside, Tim and I had discussed a NETA get together in February so I'm hoping to be able to meet a lot of you in person then. And Kaholee should be coming along nicely so you'll be able to see her in person too.

Take care.

oh good, I was hoping someone would do a Beta. We've seen well-documented installations of just about every other engine, but no really good writeups on a Beta.

Didja splurge for the white paintjob?
I've always thought that the sole saving grace of my father's engine room is that the Cummins are painted white. Everything is just so much easier when you can SEE.

Whatcha have planned for the old A4?...

Funny thing about white. You would think it would show every speck of dirt but it seems to just make everything look cleaner instead. I worked on a gloss black aircraft for a couple of months and every dribble of oil would show up from a quarter mile away. After that I noticed white aircraft could go much longer between washings.

-Britton

I'll probably clean it up and sell it. Kaholee has never been in saltwater. She was originally a Great Lakes boat, then moved to Elephant Butte Reservoir. Tim says it's in the best shape of any A4 he's ever seen. It hasn't been run for a few years but I never had a problem with it. It always started, well if I didn't forget to turn the fuel on, and it never failed me. The guy I got Kaholee from said the previous owner had overhauled it just before he purchased Kaholee (he had her about two years). I'll be happy with the Beta if it's as reliable as this A4 has been.

Actually I was quite tempted to keep it since I have some familiarity with gas engines. The diesel is going to be a whole new ballgame for me. Guess I need to start looking for a basic diesel mechanics class.

Paint-wise, the gray is going to be just a shade or two off of white. The other reason from going with white, or near white, is it keeps the interior of the boat much cooler than darker colors.

(I was referring to the engine paint. I dunno if it's a beta-wide thing, but my local beta dealer offers an option to have the engine painted awlgrip white)

You never know, you might find a buyer here. We sold our old Volvo MD5A on Ebay - the guy drove 3 hours to come and pick it up in the back of his volvo station wagon.

White's a good engine color if that happens to be the standard color, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense in this case to pay extra for a white paint job.

From what I can tell, that white paint seems to be a custom option from Sound Marine Diesel, not a Beta thing.

White Beta:




Standard Red Beta:

Yes, it's a cost more option. If you are buying a Beta engine, it would be much cheaper to invest in a couple cans of high temp engine spray paint.

Besides, I kind of like the red. :)

Tim

What is that brown filler you are using on Kaholee ?

I have never seen that before and am curious.

(jumping in only because I think I asked the other side of the question a couple of years ago)

Microballoons vary in color from bright purple to dark brown.

My own personal wild theory is that they all start purple and brown as they age on the shelf.

Thanks figment, I have only ever used that powder stuff that you mix in- that always stayed white.

West System Epoxy - that is

There are a number of additives that can be used.

I know from being in the shop that Tim's usual mix includes both microballoons and cabosil (a colloidal silica thickener, which is white).

As an aside, there are two different microballoons offered by West?one of which is purple and one of which is light brown. I forget the numbers.

I don't generally use the fillers sold by West System, partly because I have found that I prefer other brands better, and partly because of available container size and cost. The West System version of microballoons is #407 Low Density Filler. Don't let the name "low density" fool you; this doesn't somehow imply weakness or other unsuitability. However, it does mean that one tends to get tiny pinholes in the sanded, faired product, and these pinholes must be filled with either several coats of unthickened epoxy resin, and/or with a finer fairing compound. All faired areas should be sealed with at least one coat of thin epoxy before painting.

The phenolic microballoons that I use are System Three. They tend to be reddish-brown in color, tending towards a bit of purple tint, but essentially they are the color that you see in the sanded patches on the boat. When soaked with resin, they darken somewhat.



All microballoons are reddish-brownish-purplish. Microballoons make a great fairing compound because they sand fairly easily, are strong, and lightweight. They work because, as the name implies, they are actually little tiny hollow spheres that absorb the resin inside the sphere, thickening the mixture. By the same token, atmospheric conditions affect how the microballoons look and feel in their dry state. Very dry conditions tend to make them powdery, while damper conditions often allow them to be soft and almost more sticky on their own. (This doesn't apply to West #407, which is always very dusty.)

There are other types of fairing fillers that are lighter colors; these don't contain microballoons. If you're using a West System powder filler that is white or off-white, it's likely to be #404 High Density Filler, which is actually an adhesive filler. This isn't the choice for bulk fairing and is designed for other uses, such as bonding and fillets. West System #410 Microlight filler is very lightweight and easy to sand, but it softens on surfaces such as decks or dark surfaces that are exposed to high heat, and should not be used as a general rule. This filler is tan.

Most of these fillers are only semi-thixotropic, and require the addition of some amount of cabosil, or colloidal (fumed) silica, in order to become a thick, non-sagging compound of any practical use. Cabosil (West System #406) is an adhesive filler on its own, and good for making thicker glueing pastes. Epoxy thickened with cabosil alone is extremely hard to sand, and is not suitable for fillets, or fairing, or many other common uses. But the cabosil is an important modifier for any microballoon mix.

Epoxy thickened with cabosil alone is extremely hard to sand, and is not suitable for fillets, or fairing, or many other common uses.

Cabosil surely makes for a hard result, but I disagree with it being unsuitable for fillets. I have been using it exclusively for fillets on 2 dinghies I have been building this fall/winter. If a fillet is done well then no sanding is needed.

Most of the fillets on these dinghies are for using glass tape over. Glass tape doesn't like right angles. For this application I apply the fillet, smooth it out with plastic spreaders that I often reshape a bit with scissors (depends on the angle of the meeting surfaces), let it set a little and partially kick, then wet out with pure resin and apply the glass tape. The wetting out step smooths out ridges as well as being the first step in apply and impregnating the glass tape. This way I get a very smooth fillet and a primary bond between it and the glass tape/resin layer. No sanding is done at all.



There are a few fillets used on inside corners where no structural tape is needed. For these I apply the fillet the same as above. But at the point that the mix starts to kick I use a nitrile gloved finger dipped in alcohol to smooth it out. The result is almost polished in finish. (the filets for the stern quarter flotation tanks are not glassed over)



Some people want to varnish their stitch and glue dinghies. These people often use wood flour, cabosil and either pigment or a small amount of sawdust of the wood they are filleting to create a color to match. I am painting mine so color mattered little to me.

Hirilond? wrote:

Epoxy thickened with cabosil alone is extremely hard to sand, and is not suitable for fillets, or fairing, or many other common uses.

Cabosil surely makes for a hard result, but I disagree with it being unsuitable for fillets.

Of course you're absolutely right, and I should have been more precise in my statement.

What I meant was that pure epoxy and cabosil is a poor choice for any sort of use where sanding after a full cure is required, thanks to the difficulty of sanding the cured result--such as the sort of fairing (which sometimes includes making cosmetic fillets) seen in a typical old fiberglass boat restoration. When sanding is not required, it makes a good choice for fillets in the sort of construction you're describing.

pink epoxy or just odd lighting?

Epoxy hardeners (West System, at least) often turn dark red as they age. It doesn't affect the performance whatsoever. This hardener is at least a year old.

I was waiting for someone to notice the coloration, and figured it would only be a matter of time till someone asked. I actually like having the dark hardener because it makes it really easy to see that the resin and hardener are thoroughly mixed.

I had a "Duh" moment later last night when I remembered that you're a West System guy. I'd forgotten that they go reddish vs the amber/brown tones of S3.

Tim, I was wondering how you would tackle those curves in the toerail this of course while i was driving home thinking of that reddish epoxy gracing my cockpit in the curved side channels that I layed last summer and forgotton about until now from reading about todays work on Kaholee.

Sometimes it it just comes down to a little (or a lot) of elbow grease and sandpaper.

well all get through it.

jpmathieu wrote:Sometimes it it just comes down to a little (or a lot) of elbow grease and sandpaper.

It seems like it's pretty much all the time, not sometimes!

Whatever the difficulty, challenge, or unsavory component of the work, all one can do is press on and get it done. Only getting it done gets it done.

Whatever the difficulty, challenge, or unsavory component of the work, all one can do is press on and get it done. Only getting it done gets it done.

This gets my vote for Quote of the year.
Now, Back to work :)

ow. my hands STILL ache from all the finger-sanding of my toerails.

Tim, enjoying watching your significant daily progress on Kalohee. I have had mixed success with my attempts to get an optimal fairing mix, however you seem to have found a recipe that works great.

Tim wrote:I don't generally use the fillers sold by West System, partly because I have found that I prefer other brands better, and partly because of available container size and cost.

Realizing that alot of the mixing is by feel, would you share your preferred ratio of ingredients.

Also, why the shift to Alexseal 202 for final sharing?

Sincerely, Dave

Hi Dave,

Mixing the proper consistency of fairing compound really is all about "feel" and experience. The "feel" comes with experience.

There is no set recipe. While I mix all my fairing compounds to a non-sag consistency, the ultimate stiffness may vary time to time, depending on how I plan to use the material.

One key element that many people don't know about is the need to mix some cabosil (colloidal, or fumed, silica) into a fairing mix in order to acheive the best thixotropic properties. Compounds made only using microballoons will never become the proper consistency; for one thing, the microballoons in too large a quantity make the mix "sandy", and even with huge amounts mixed in, the end result still manages to remain a bit softer than desired, yet utterly unworkable.

I always begin, after thoroughly mixing the resin and hardener, with the microballoons, and add what I think is right. There is no particular guideline here, unfortunately. I don't think it's possible to boil it down into set amounts of this or that, since things like ambient temperature, resin temperature, humidity, and other factors affect how the various components react with one another.

That said, I don't even know how much I use--it's all by eye. I put in enough of the microballoons to thicken the resin substantially, but not so much that it starts to get clumpy or sandy. The amount I put in in no way comes close to making a sag-free product; it's not liquid, either, but it's certainly not that thick. Then, to finish the thickening process and fine-tune the consistency to where I want it, I add cabosil as needed--a bit at a time, and keep adding it till the consistency is right.

It's also very important to mix thoroughly, and to dig deeply and pull the material up from the bottom of the mixing container. A lot of mixes go bad for people because there was material towards the bottom that remained thinner and didn't get mixed in properly.

rigel wrote:Also, why the shift to Alexseal 202 for final sharing?

Epoxy and microballoons are good for bulk fairing, but they leave behind varying amounts of porosity and small pinholes. This is because microballoons, as the name implies, are actually hollow spheres that absorb the resin during mixing. "Popped" spheres lead to these pinholes, as does air in the mix; air is inevitable, of course.

I switch to a fine compound at the end because it is a smoother material made from two already-thixotropic components that are of the optimum consistency. A fine fairing material like Alexseal 202 or Awl-Fair is perfect for filling small pinholes and shallow inconsistencies. It also sands very easily and smoothly.

Another way to fill these pinholes is to apply multiple coats of unthickened epoxy resin over the top of the filled areas. Eventually, this will fill all the pinholes. In addition, at least a coat or two of thin resin is recommended to "seal" the fairing compound, which helps acheive a smoother, more consistent surface ready for primer and paint.

Note that I also like to use, and will be using in this case, a few coats of high-build primer over heavily faired or otherwise less-than-perfect surfaces. The high-build acts as a sort of final chance to catch fairing errors, fill pinholes, and other things before applying the thinner finishing primer that is required as a base coat for the LPU.

ow. my hands STILL ache from all the finger-sanding of my toerails.

Try doing it with the boat in the water...

Tim, thanks for the detailed answer. I will try adding cabosil.
Sincerely, Dave

Tim, I don't know how you do it. Every day (maybe every other day) I check to see if there is a coat of paint on there. I would be so tempted to slap a coat of primer on there just so it looked like I was making progress and more readily highlight areas that continue to need work. I know you can't spray until the area is clean and all that but it would drive me nuts.

You are a man of much patience.


P.S. I just changed the graphic in my signature. This is a jpg I created and used for a custom logo on some shirts and a cap I ordered from Queensboro.com for my wifes birthday. They arrived the other day and my initial impressions are they are good quality. The needlework is very good.

A bare, white canvas. Good milestone.

Tim, I know you're planning on extensive interior work as well. Are you planning to go through the complete deck painting process before doing the larger interior projects?

That first coat of white must give you a big boost huh ?

Good job.

Like a fresh bar of soap --- nice!

#218 wrote:Tim, I know you're planning on extensive interior work as well. Are you planning to go through the complete deck painting process before doing the larger interior projects?

In this case, yes. For a variety of reasons, it makes sense here to blitz all the painting steps before continuing.

It still amazes me how much the first coat of primer can really improve the looks of the boat. Kaholee is really starting to look good now.

-Britton

Yes, she is looking good. I haven't seen her in person since April and am looking forward to visiting her between the 15th and 20th of February, and meeting all the NETA guys on the 17th.

Here's the latest picture. I can't wait to see her with the non-skid done.

Kaholee is sure looking good. And progressing so quickly. It took me 6 weeks to get that far on my boat (without the interior work).

I love that shop. Especially the white padded walls...

I would imagine we are all starting to drool!, I certainly am. Look at the lights shining in that paintjob. WOW!

Well as everyone knows by now, I didn't make the NETA meeting on the 17th due to the office move SNAFU. I'm hoping to make it in March though. I am starting to suffer form KAHOLEE withdrawal. :(

On the positive side, we decided on the Beta Marine BD722 20HP engine for KAHOLEE from Sound Marine Diesel. SMD can do an interesting thing with your warranty on these engines, which means the warranty (3 yr) will not start until we launch in April of 08. Of course, nothing is simple, now that we have decided on the engine, it's which alternator. We will be going with a 70 or 80 amp unit, but the question is now, internally or externally regulated. Then, which control system. I'm just really glad Tim knows all this stuff. :D