Gunning Dories...

[bcooke]

If I were to assemble a couple of frames with the idea of building a new boat on those cold, wintery days when I can't work on the Triton I was thinking of a sailing version of this:



I think a boat like this would make a highly versatile beach cruiser and trailerable coastal explorer.

I am just thinking out loud here...

-Britton

[keelbolts]

Something like a dory or a sharpie would be fairly easy to build. There's a book titled The Sharpie Book. It gives plans and instructions to build a number of boats from about 14' to 36' for $20. It even has plans to do an Egret in plywood. My boat draws 6' and, on the Chesapeake Bay, that's a lot. I find myself lusting after something shallow.

[Rachel]

Britton,

That reminds me of an article in Woodenboat that I enjoyed a few years ago -- perhaps others here remember it, too. I think the boat was on the cover (?) At any rate, a fellow who works up there part time (summers) made a sailing camp-cruiser that looked a lot like that, and then took it on a trip to the Bahamas that winter. If memory serves, he trailered it down to Florida and then shipped it across. I think it had "batwing" type sails (is that a real type or did I make that up?) They might have been lug sails, and the roach was something like a fan. I think it had two masts/sails.

Looked like a LOT of fun and made me want to do it.

My own personal/current winter-shop-dream-little boat is Matt Layden's Paradox:





http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/paradox1.htm

Geez, is it fall or what? Just listen to us! (50s today mid-day....)

[bcooke]

Could 'Batwing' be your name for a Chinese lug sail; with those multiple, full battens right up to the head of the sail?

Rachel, it pains me to be the one to tell you but... That is one UGLY boat you posted. That may be the ugliest boat I have ever seen. I would rather remain on a deserted island for all eternity with GW Bush than be rescued and taken home on that sorry excuse for a boat. How can you possibly post a picture like that in the same thread with my picture? My boat is all curves and sheer. Your boat has less nautical lineage than a cardboard box. Please don't ever let that boat be born. Let it die a merciful death on the drawing boards. Just WHAT were you thinking?! Just my humble opinion of course :-)

The story though, is vaguely familiar. Was that boat a Caledonia Yawl?... nah, I think that was a different one. Camp cruising can be fun, incredibly cheap, and simple to the extreme if it is done right. It can be downright miserable if you do it wrong. I would stick with an open boat for flexibility - easy to load, easy to to beach, can handle various numbers of crew,- definitely no pop through holes for the skippers head. (Where do the crew sit on your boat?) It might not be ultimately as dry but I am not crossing oceans here just bays and if it is raining or the water is too rough than I will leave the boat pulled up on the beach and enjoy the view from my tent. My boat should row well first, sail second and motor-couldn't-care-less. If there is wind, any small boat can go a little. If there is no wind you really want a boat that rows easily hence the fine entry and narrow beam of my boat choice. Motors are noisy, and prone to failure, and take up a lot of room-. Leave them behind. The boat should also ride the waves well, that means no flat bottoms and sides like your... errr... [floaty thingy].

Sharpies are good and interesting boats but they are not particularly good weather boats. To generalize, round bottoms roll with the waves ultimately keeping you dry. Flat bottoms, while initially highly stable, reach a critical point where they go all the way over. They also tend to pound and tend to be draggier under oars unless there is a significant rocker built in. The dory type was widely used in New England (where I live) for the very good reasons that A.) They are cheap and easy to build- New Englanders are nothing if not frugal and lazy B.) They excel in the kinds of water conditions that are found on the New England coast. In some areas I think the sharpie would be a good choice. It would be my prefered choice if the Chesapeake was my intended cruising grounds - but I am picturing myself island hopping along the Maine/Nova Scotian coastline and there are no sharpies for the very good reason that they would founder quite easily in the local conditions.

My last boat was shallow draft; 20 feet long and drew 2 feet. Perfect for some cruising grounds but east of Portland Maine the tracking/pointing ability of a deep keel was sorely missed. It was fun to motor up past the other anchored boats into the shallows and watch someone follow me until they grounded out.

Rachel, to be fair, your boat is designed more as a pocket cruiser than a camp cruiser which are two distinct types in my mind. Your boat has capabilities that mine doesn't have - or need for my intentions. I have a Triton for my comfortable cruiser dreams.

-Britton

[Rachel]

Could 'Batwing' be your name for a Chinese lug sail; with those multiple, full battens right up to the head of the sail?

Yes I think so. I remember he changed the original rig some when he built his own camp cruiser -- I think that was the "batwing" part (but it seemed more fan-like than your usual lug sail). It was a lovely boat. I wonder if I could turn up the old issue it was in? Would be neat to read the article again -- I was just thinking of it recently.

Rachel, it pains me to be the one to tell you but... That is one UGLY boat you posted. That may be the ugliest boat I have ever seen. I would rather remain on a deserted island for all eternity with GW Bush than be rescued and taken home on that sorry excuse for a boat...
......I would stick with an open boat for flexibility ... definitely no pop through holes for the skippers head. (Where do the crew sit on your boat?)

Erm... it doesn't sound likely that there would BE crew, now does it. No, no, I would sail alone into my dotage, in my "ugly" boat, while even starving, shipwrecked people on threadbare rafts tried to NOT to get my attention.....

But yeah, your boat is much prettier :-) And I do think camp cruising could be great. When I was sailing (motoring, really) up the inside passage in British Columbia, I met this couple in Bella Bella who had rowed all the way up from Olympia, Washington, in an open boat they'd built themselves. They were camp cruising on a nearby island when I was there. It seemed magical (especially after always thinking about how to find good anchorages) that they could just pull it up on the beach, OUT of the water! (I think they did have to wait for high tide because it was heavy.) It made the 30-footer I was on feel embarrassingly opulent and unportable.

[Tim]

I think Rachel's boat is kind of cool in it's unabashadly ugly way. Sometimes, ugly has a purpose.

To appreciate any boat for what it is is to open one's horizons to many interesting craft. Sometimes, singleness of purpose and optimization for that purpose can be beautiful it its own right, even if not in a traditionally beautiful sense.

[Tim]

Britton, are you sure the Triton is where your efforts should be going? It sounds like you're now, and for always, an open boat, rough-it aficionado. Why go to the effort for a real cruising boat if you're going to always pine for simplicity, rowing, and shoreside camping?

Seriously: follow your heart. I'm not making any judgements, but I've noticed that when you wax rhapsodic it's always about the smaller dories, camp boats, skiffs, and Outward Bound experiences--never about the joys of cruising in a larger boat. Now, I understand that most of your experiences to date, last year notwithstanding, have been of the small boat type. But do you truly want to make the necessary attitudinal shift to a larger boat with its inherent pleasures...but increased responsibilities and overall complexity of existence?

Will you ever be truly happy on a "luxurious" 28' sailboat, confined by the lack of anywhere-mobility and the pressures of onboard systems like engines, iceboxes, and the like?

The two types of cruising are very different, and you'll never recreate a dory experience on a larger boat; nor would the opposite apply.

Focus on what you love. Forget the rest. Being pulled in multiple directions only reduces the necessary focus on the task at hand. I'm not giving you a hard time: I'm actually concerned for real whether you're going in the right direction.

[CharlieJ]

Tim- that's a very very true post. That's the reason we have Tehani, a 25 foot deep keel ( relatively) sloop AND we also own an 18 foot cat ketch sharpie, for eventual beach cruising and shallow water use. Can't do it all in just one boat, so you either must choose, or maintain two boats.

If you will do a "google" on Batwing sails you'll get many hits, showing the type and style. Originally they were a type usied on sailing canoes, years ago. Now there is even a registered name for one style the "balough" type.

Britton- I can't believe you've never looked at the Microcruising site, maintained by the folks on Little Cruiser, one of Matt's original boats. His boats are quite unusual it's true but they are purpose designed and fill that purpose admirably- Here's the link to Micro Cruising-

http://www.microcruising.com/

Rachel- that wouldn't be a big enough boat for us- we need room for two :)

[Rachel]

Well this is turning into an interesting thread. Lots to think about. I do wonder how Britton would fit those stainless tanks into a Gunning Dory though... ;-)

Charlie, it's true - the Paradox is really a solo cruiser, although there is some data on stretching it slightly so that it would be wide enough to sleep two. Still more like a portable (albeit very luxurious) tent though :-) I read that the designer, Matt Layden, has lived on his for years at a stretch. I would love to have one to trailer around to various small boat meets. And I kind of like being inside and outside at the same time, so I think I might like the indoor cockpit concept. I'd love to actually try one out - I've only read about them.



I know you were (sort of?) joking Britton, but although I'm the first one to be critical of boats that I find ugly (hey, it's a fun sport almost!), I can't help but like the Paradox because it's practical, and so to me it's beautiful in that way. But then I had a Bolger Micro Trawler, and liked it.

The kind of boat that strikes me as ugly is something more like a Bayliner Buccaneer, with it's lack of proportion. And more than that, it's boats that are supposedly one thing (a sailboat), but really something else (a dockside gathering place? An observatory?) Also, when something is not well-crafted (but meant to be long lasting), I don't tend to like it.



And just now someone who loves the Buccaner is probably starting a reply showing a boat they find ugly :-)

[bcooke]

You people leave me speachless.

First, I post a photo of a beautiful classic dory born from a few hundred years of development and craftsmanship and I get an ugly duckling posted for comparison.

Second, my love for the most important thing in my life is questioned.

ARE YOU PEOPLE ALL CRAZY!!!!

Just to be clear (some of you appear to be quite dense so pay attention here)

I LOVE MY TRITON !

My Triton is the most important thing in my life.
I have sacrificed my life savings, any hopes of a successful career, any chance of a fulfilling romance, all for the love of my boat.

Just in case you weren't really paying attention: I LOVE MY TRITON!!!

Yes, I sometimes wax fondly on the simplicities of an open boat under open skies over an open sea. That in no way should be construed to mean that I prefer it over my real love of cruising.

I have done the micro cruising thing. That's why I now own a Triton. Been there done that, now I want the headroom and space to have two thoughts in my head simultaneously. I do like simplicity. That is why I own a Triton and not a 50 foot floating monster that screams 'Fix me!" all day long.

I love my Triton because:
I want to stand up and change my mind without having to go on deck first.
I want to leave my bed unmade and not worry about it until after dinner.
I want to flush the toilet. (buckets work but toilets are much better and my dating prospects improve immensely with a toilet - try convincing a girl to use a bucket and see how far that gets you)
I want to grab a book off the bookshelf and not have to root around through cramped storage crates to get it.
I want lights at the flick of a switch.
I want a stereo system.
I want fresh water out of a faucet.
I want a toasty wood stove on those cold drizzly days.
I want to stand in the companionway and watch the rain fall.
I want a big two burner stove so I can cook pasta and vegetables simultaneously.
I want to share the cruising experience with someone without playing Twister every waking hour.
I want to press a button and have my faithful A4 greet me with a purr and a surge of power.
I want to fly big sails that make me go fast in Force One winds as well as small sails to fly in Force Seven. (you can have everything above that thank you very much)
I even think I want cold milk for my coffee.

I would like an open dory type boat for:
A pleasant afternoon sail in the local bay (average depths 3-6 feet often drying out at low tide).
The ability to trailer 200 miles in a day, go for a sail, and then drive home.
For two weeks a year to get close to nature and remember how much I love my Triton.
To revel in ultimate simplicity for a day.
To appreciate the beauty of a well designed classic work boat.
To row out to my moored Triton.
To row out to a tidal sandbar for a picnic (girls on dates really seem to like this).
To share an experience with past nautical generations.

Do I NEED to explain myself any further or have I made myself clear?

Maybe I need a new forum to habitate. I thought you people knew me but obviously we are strangers all writing to ourselves...

As always, the above statements, while true, are made with a big tongue in the cheek.

Love always,

-Britton

[bcooke]

Now, to answer the questions seriously.

I wax about small boat cruising because that is my experience. Until my cruise last summer I had cruised on 25+ foot boats for maybe a week or two total in my entire life. I don't have the experience to wax about. When I met Tim and Nathan in Portland for the 'Bachelor's Cruise' I had spent a total of three nights and four days on my Triton which is the heaviest boat by far that I have ever operated.

I'm actually concerned for real whether you're going in the right direction.

Dont' be. I am like a pig in ... a pig sty. I couldn't be happier. Your concern makes my blush however.

Thanks for the microlite link. I used to be more interested in them than I am now. After cruising a 20' Compac I kinda got over it for the reasons I mentioned in my last post. They have their place but my old logbooks have lots of dreamy scribblings (which curiously look a lot like a Triton's interior) made during four day stretches of rain and fog when I went from sleeping to sitting to eating to sleeping again all without loosing contact with my bunk.

So many of those really small cruising boats just don't look good to me. They succeed in their purpose but at great aesthetic expense. That's why I like the older, traditional designs. They don't try to do as much which makes them much more capable in what they ultimately do.

Sometimes, singleness of purpose and optimization for that purpose can be beautiful it its own right,

True. But I gotta believe there is a prettier way to do the job - a round hull, a more open deck(or a removable canvas cover), something... anything.

Well this is turning into an interesting thread. Lots to think about. I do wonder how Britton would fit those stainless tanks into a Gunning Dory though... ;-

Interesting huh? I just wanted to post a picture of a pretty dory...

No stainless tanks needed on the dory either. Removable tanks are a plus when you can't always pull up to the marina for a re-fill. Four to six jerry cans could keep the dory going for as long you wanted to be on the dory. That is a good thing because my tanks are not coming out of my beloved Triton any time soon.

Am I the only one with a dog-eared copy of Chappelle's American Small Sailing Craft?

-Britton

[bcooke]

And thanks for the opportunity to reach "Master of Arcane" status!

[Rachel]

That's a great post, Britton. A list of things that you'd like to be able to do is a really good way to think about it. I like it when people do that with houses too. You know, like saying "I want a place to play my bassoon, and someplace to make puzzles, and I like to eat over the sink" instead of "Well, it should have a living room, and dining room, and a kitchen."

Looks like you'd better keep your Triton :-)

Nice new avatar!

R.

[Tim]

Just testing, Britton.

You passed.

I can smell the smoke coming off your keyboard from here. Hope I didn't offend in any way.

Now that that's all out of the way, get that love of your life back in the water and sailing next year.

And thanks for the opportunity to reach "Master of Arcane" status!

Your last posts would have proven you worthy of the distinction even if you didn't reach the 1000 post threshold.

[bcooke]

Hope I didn't offend in any way.

Not at all. It was fun :-)

[keelbolts]

bcooke states:
My Triton is the most important thing in my life.
I have sacrificed my life savings, any hopes of a successful career, any chance of a fulfilling romance, all for the love of my boat.

I can relate. In addition, I have spent countless hundreds of hours on my knees slapping varnish on my boat. I changed careers - from an architect to a school teacher to get my summers off so I could keep up with the maintainence on Favona.

Most of us appreciate your sacrifices, but that just can't be healthy for us.

[bcooke]

I think the Gunning Dory is out and the Ness Yawl is in...



Before I hear anymore about how I should abandon my Triton, let me be very clear that this might be the project for after this next phase of the Triton rebuilding is done (approximately 18 months). I promise not to start any new boat construction until then.

-Britton

[Hirilondë]

The other forum I am active in is for back yard boat builders mostly. http://www.messing-about.com/forum/inde ... f4940ad6e9 One of the members is building this http://ulyscustomplunder.itgo.com/cgi-b ... c-836f.jpg . Many of the forum members there build coastal camper/cruisers. Some of the designs are quite bizarre, at least by conventional standards. But this doesn't stop these people from having a ball with the building and the sailing.

[Duncan]

... coastal camper/cruisers...having a ball with the building and the sailing.

I met a guy twenty years ago down in the Exumas, who's stuck in my mind ever since. I can't remember the boat type now, but I did recognize it at the time: semi-decked (covered bow), about 18', leeboards, maybe gaff-rigged, beachable. Might have been an English design.

Anyway, he'd sailed down from Nassau, and told me he'd been having his holidays that way for years. He was a very impressive sailor, had everything he needed in that "skiff", and utterly shipshape (right down to the varnished cans with the labels off and all marked with something waterproof). It looked fairly comfortable, and he seemed to know exactly what he was doing. Navigated by sextant, of course, and seemed to be quite a knowledgeable naturalist as well.

Needless to say, he was a bit of a "type" - a bachelor bank manager who had come down from Canada a long time ago, and just loved his getaway every year. I guess the open-water sailing was the adventure, and the gunkholing where no-one else could go was the reward.

I had a 33' (cringe: Hunter) charter boat at the time, and that whole approach seemed wrong compared to this guy's.

[MikeD]

Ness Yawl is in...



-Britton

Hubba hubba! Simply striking!

[jollyboat]

The sails illustrated in both of Rachel's "Ugly Duckling" examples are termed 'balanced lug sails'. This type of rig has a long history as an easy to handle sail, and is also a particulary 'short handed friendly' sail. These configurations can be with and without booms. This is an excellent rig style for small open boats. A 'batwing sail ' looks like a bat's wing and has full battens to aid in supporting the sail and it's exceptionally full roach.

[Rachel]

Now that this thread's come back up...

Er... am I missing something, or where is the mizzen mast/sail on the "Ness Yawl" in the photo Britton posted?

[bcooke]

The Ness Yawl is designed with a couple of rigging options. Funny that no one mentioned that earlier :-)

[Rachel]

If I was the first one to mention it - but it took me six months to notice the discrepancy - I'm thinking I might not qualify for "eagle eye" after all.

[bcooke]

In the presence of ultimate beauty it is easy to overlook the details.

As soon as the Triton cruise ready... as soon as the Triton is cruise ready...

[bcooke]

Swampscott Dory.

Without the motor though. That thing is an abomination.

let me be very clear that this might be the project for after this next phase of the Triton rebuilding is done (approximately 18 months).

Hah! 18 months. That is a funny one.

[Rachel]

That does look appealing.

When I was heading up the Inside Passage (on a palatial 30-footer), we passed - then met up with in harbor - a couple rowing a home-built traditional style (can't remember whose tradition) boat. While we calculated scope for 180' deep anchorages, they pulled their boat up on the beach...

They had started in Olympia, Washington, down at the bottom of Puget Sound, and I saw them near Bella Bella, B.C., which is a good bit of the way to Alaska. Never saw them after that, and I'd always wondered what happened to them.

Just a month or so ago, someone mentioned them on a forum, I sent him a PM, and he sent me back a photo of them and said they had made it all the way up to Alaska, which was their goal. Very cool.

I used to kayak and the simplicity does have a charm. A small sailboat like those pictured in this thread would add just a bit of luxury to that.

In other small boat news, CharlieJ (from this forum) and his wife Laura are out right now on the Texas 200, which is a 200-mile not-really-a-race on the gulf, with beach camping at night. I think the largest boat in it is a Princess 22 cat/ketch. Charlie and Laura are sailing a sharpie that they built a few years ago, and then converted to a trimaran a couple of weeks ago. I'll be interested to hear how they did.

There's a fellow who's participated in a number of cruises that I know of on an 8-foot dinghy that he's cleverly turned into a camp cruiser. He didn't do it to prove anything about how small one could go, but due to family health issues he's been temporarily grounded from living aboard his 28-foot cruiser, so he used what he had on hand to get out boating on. The boat has a conestoga-type camping cover, and he cooks and even has an oven. It's quite ingenious. For example, a piece of canvas slips over the oars to form a cot, the cover is supported by tent poles that stow along the gunwale, etc.

As for the 18 months, I've always liked Fusto's tag line, which is something like: "On year three of a one-year refit."

Rachel