Re-think fuel tank placement.

[Skipper599]

I spent a few hours recently reading over some older posts. There was one that particularly caught my eye, commenting on fuel spillage when refuelling. (sorry I cannot find it again to quote) It would appear the op was advocating positioning the filler cap on the cockpit sole to provide "fast containment" in the case of over-fill. At least, that's what I gleaned from the writing.

While I understand the thought pertaining to the filler location, if that persons cockpit is anything similar to mine, I have four jeezly big Perko drain holes. One in each corner of the cockpit that would immediately drain any spilt liquid to the exterior of the boat via these cockpit drains..

That said, it did get me to thinking about my own vessel and the current positioning of the fuel-fill caps. There are two of them (one each side), mounted on the sloping exterior of the cockpit coamings. These were installed a long time back, prior to my decision to dress my boat up with real teak decking. It becomes abundantly clear, any spillage at all will very soon spoil the looks of that expensive decking. So the question arises, what to do??? . . .

I have two 45 litre aluminum fuel tanks positioned under cockpit seating and behind storage cabinets located one on either side of the engine ... it seemed a good idea at the time. The cabinetry was built for access to the tanks, but I can't say it is easy access. eg: I woud have to remove the cabinet teak ply facia board first, followed by removal of the loose fit shelf. I would then need to remove eight #6 retaining screws that hold the plywood partition in the back of the cabinets. Only then would I be able to disconnect hoses and remove the tank.

I'm now giving serious thought to replacing them with one single tank to be mounted either underneath the engine or, another posibility might be slightly above and behind the engine under the cockpit sole. I'm throwing this out there for the collective thoughts or opinions of the forum members.

Things to consider: i still can't decide where to place the filler pipe/cap ... I would probably lose 50% fuel capacity ... Placing it under the engine would hinder access to the Rule elec. bilge pump and the Stum Box for the Gusher 10 pump.

I'll throw up a few pics to illustrate the situation described above.

Bilge area, showing Rule pump and Strum Box

[LazyGuy]

Strictly as an opinion..... I like where the fill is right now. In the side of the coaming. Complaints related to spillage issues seems to be with the fill mounted in the deck at the edge of the boat where you cannot tip the nozzle up quickly without employing centrifugal force to fling those last few drops of fuel such that they land on the water and instantly spread into a 10' X 10' slick. Placing a rag around the fill area just seems to make matters worse. To protect those beautiful decks I would cut a few of the oil pads to size to fit between the toe rail and the fill and take it from there. With 20 gallon tanks, it is not like you are going to be using the speed nozzle filling the tank in less than 3 seconds sending a 10 gallon glug of diesel shooting out the side. The tanks appear to be in almost new condition. If it ain't broke.....

My fill is in the cockpit sole and while I like it, I am always nervous when we get water in the cockpit (not often) while it is draining out the cockpit drain, is there salt water dripping down into my fuel tank? Yes there is a gasket and the answer is 'no, there is no seawater draining into my fuel tank' but it is like asking someone ' is this milk sour?' Once the idea is in your head.... you can't get it out.

Another issue would be the hole in those coamings when the fill is removed. Again, I would leave well enough alone.

[Skipper599]

Thanks for your thoughts "LazyGuy" ... unfortunately, just like your ref to sour milk, I now cannot get the image of Diesel Fuel stained teak out of my mind.

Perhaps there are alternatives I could implement ... eg: Dripless fillers? ... a Drip Bib? ... What about preventive overfill devices? ... surely others are faced with this very same situation???

I can see myself placing preventative materials below the filler to catch stray drips, but Fuel Oil, being what it is, one cannot guarantee 100% success. Regardless of the teak decking, diesel will always have a habit of staining eventually, and also running overboard if a larger amount from accidental overfill should occur ... Ha! I can already envisage the horrified and accusitory looks from dockside when those lovely, (ghastly?) rainbows appear on the harbour water's surface ... aaaaaaaaaaagh! ... not to mention the Eco police.

[Rachel]

Ha! I can already envisage the horrified and accusitory looks from dockside when those lovely, (ghastly?) rainbows appear on the harbour water's surface ... aaaaaaaaaaagh! ... not to mention the Eco police.

Reading that makes me feel a bit sad, but I think you are right that (at least some) other people (and laws) will be. But then as far as moving the fill to the cockpit goes, mightn't spills there drain out into the water just as (or more?) easily, through the cockpit drains?

I think gas fills are not supposed to be in the cockpit sole, but I don't know that that applies to diesel. Nonetheless, I would prefer to keep a fuel fill out of the cockpit. Things that don't appeal to me about it:

1) Overboard drains are right there, allowing easy fuel spills

2) Any fuel spilled would be constantly underfoot (slippery/dangerous)

3) It's just farther, and over more nice surfaces, to drag the gross fuel dock hose

4) Probably a really remote chance of a problem, but with some sills it's conceivable that fuel could spill into the boat (ugh)

I had a fuel fill on the port sidedeck just outboard of the cockpit coaming. I know there were occasional dribbles (especially with the new, "improved" "spill proof" jerry jugs, don't get me started on those!), but I don't remember any permanent stains in the teak decking. This has been a while ago, but I remember the fill having some small lip around it. Not enough to actually contain a spill, but it wasn't the usual totally flush fitting either. I would cut a hole in the center of a fuel diaper so that it would just fit over the fitting and make a 360º "bib" to catch any small drips.

The fill was just aft of where you would step when entering/exiting the cockpit, so slipping was not a concern if there were a few drips. The fill was on the flat of the deck though, not vertically oriented like yours. That seems like it might sometimes be tricky for angling the pump handle? (Maybe not in reality; I can't quite see the relationship to the bulwarks, etc.)

[Skipper599]

Ha! I can already envisage the horrified and accusitory looks from dockside when those lovely, (ghastly?) rainbows appear on the harbour water's surface ... aaaaaaaaaaagh! ... not to mention the Eco police.

Reading that makes me feel a bit sad,

... really ??? ... which part ... the horrified looks, the ever widening rainbows on the water, or the Eco police???

but I think you are right that (at least some) other people (and laws) will be. But then as far as moving the fill to the cockpit goes, mightn't spills there drain out into the water just as (or more?) easily, through the cockpit drains?

I think gas fills are not supposed to be in the cockpit sole, but I don't know that that applies to diesel. Nonetheless, I would prefer to keep a fuel fill out of the cockpit. Things that don't appeal to me about it:

... I had the same thoughts about locting it to the cockpit sole.

1) Overboard drains are right there, allowing easy fuel spills

2) Any fuel spilled would be constantly underfoot (slippery/dangerous)

3) It's just farther, and over more nice surfaces, to drag the gross fuel dock hose

4) Probably a really remote chance of a problem, but with some sills it's conceivable that fuel could spill into the boat (ugh)

I had a fuel fill on the port sidedeck just outboard of the cockpit coaming. I know there were occasional dribbles (especially with the new, "improved" "spill proof" jerry jugs, don't get me started on those!), but I don't remember any permanent stains in the teak decking. This has been a while ago, but I remember the fill having some small lip around it. Not enough to actually contain a spill, but it wasn't the usual totally flush fitting either. I would cut a hole in the center of a fuel diaper so that it would just fit over the fitting and make a 360º "bib" to catch any small drips.

The fill was just aft of where you would step when entering/exiting the cockpit, so slipping was not a concern if there were a few drips. The fill was on the flat of the deck though, not vertically oriented like yours. That seems like it might sometimes be tricky for angling the pump handle? (Maybe not in reality; I can't quite see the relationship to the bulwarks, etc.)

Thanks for your input Rachel, maybe I'm making this out to be more of a problem than it actually is ... I think I shall put a 1/4" spacer behind the fill port to provide an "anchor" to aid in securing a Fuel Bib ... are there such things (bibs) available in the market??? ... I can visualise a plastic bib having a pocket at the bottom to contain any stray dribbles. Obviously it will be of no help in the event of a major overfill or other catastrphe ie: Exxon Valdez ...

[Skipper599]

Thanks for your comments too Glenn. I shall do as you say and leave well enough alone; however, I will take precautionary steps to prevent spills if only for the sake of keeping my decks pristine. I've already mentioned a spacer behind the filler to accomodate some form of "bib". Also, I would appreciate some form of gauge, one in each tank as well as a device to prevent overfill ... but I'm not sure what form the latter might take.

These tanks were custom built with no provision for a gauge of any type. I was thinking electric but, I think I shall keep it very simple with the use of wooden dipsticks. ... That requires the installation of an additional threaded nipple in the top of the tank to accomodate same, with a threaded cap. I'm thinking the wood needs to be painted to prevent migration of fuel up the stick when taking a reading. Question: What type of paint or other coating??? It would have to be something unaffected by continual immersion in diesel fuel. Any suggestions???

[LazyGuy]

Bob, I have been thinking about this, it is not the fill that gives everyone the problems, it is the vent. Yes, there is the occasional drip or two of diesel from the nozzle but typically, the overfill comes out the vent. If you do get fuel out the fill, there is a real good chance that your vent is clogged.

It is not clear where the vents are for your tanks and if they are accessible for controlling any overfill. Unfortunately, my vent is on the transom but except for the final fill up, I always leave at least 5 gallons air space on the 30 gallon tank.

There is also an eco something or other fill nozzle where the fill tube is in the middle of the vent line. There are two connections on the fill tube. One connects to the tank vent and the other to the vent fitting. Allegedly, if you overfill the tank, the overflow flows to the tank through the vent line or up the vent line and right back down the fill. Econab:

http://www.myboatsgear.com/mbg/product.asp?prodID=2280

[Quetzalsailor]

Does not anyone have one of the vent whistles? I think they're required on new boats(?). In my case, the sudsing occurs almost at the same time as the overflow of the vent and a quick reaction and a quick swipe takes care of the minor splurp before it goes overboard. Some silly P.O. abandoned the old portside gas fill adjacent to the vent and put a new diesel fill on starboard, so it takes two to monitor and swipe! And he left the old gas fill open to the bilge! I've plugged the gas fill full of urethane foam so that one disastrous goof cannot occur.

Endgame should be, I think, to replumb the vent with a whistle and move the diesel fill back alongside the vent. Maybe I should plumb both fills together to eliminate the thinking required to put the fill side against the dock.

Sloth, so far, after seven seasons, has won out. We top up only twice a season.

[Rachel]

... really ??? ... which part ... the horrified looks, the ever widening rainbows on the water, or the Eco police???

I just got a sense of "Wink, wink, and we know those silly tree-huggers will be keeping their eyes on us, so let's make sure to keep them off our backs, eh?" vs. actual concern. That may not be what you meant, but it's how it came across to me, reading it, and it made me feel a bit sad.

As long as I'm clearly not "cool" anyway...

When you refuel, keep a squirt bottle of dish detergent topside and if some does make it in the water...give it a few squirts.

When I was first ocean sailing, that's what I heard too. I later found out it's not recommended, because it breaks up the oil and makes it sink (whereas an absorbent picks it up). Here is some info from Boat U.S. Foundation for Boating Safety & Clean Water (I realize Skipper599 is in Canada, but since this is addressing physical phenomena...).

Never treat a fuel spill with dish soap or any other dispersant. This illegal practice “sinks” the fuel causing it to settle to the bottom and contaminate soil.

Oceanconservancy.org agrees:

Accidents happen. Be prepared with absorbent pads to clean oil or fuel spills. Dish soap doesn't work. It just causes those liquids to sink and contaminate the bottom.

That was a good point about the vent. My experience is with vents in the cabin-side, where it was pretty easy to place a fuel diaper just beneath it on deck. I can see where it would be trickier on the transom.

The Boat U.S. article also mentioned this, which I had never heard of. Sounds interesting, if it could be adapted to one's particular vent (article was aimed at fuel dock operators, hence the opening line):

Consider offering tools boaters can use, like bilge socks and absorbent pads, for sale at your fuel dock or ship’s store. Hand out or encourage the use of an absorbent pad around the deck fill to catch spills. Use a fuel collection device suction-cupped over the vessel’s fuel tank vent to catch seepage.

Rachel

Edited to add:
PS: I just re-read Quetzal's post. Isn't it annoying when something like that is set up (or worse, changed) so as to require two people and not one? I had that experience with water-tank fillage. Boat #1 had a deck-fill and the vent overflowed into the galley sink. At a dock, one person could fill the tanks, and even at that had to only keep a cursory eye on it (staying nearby so as not to waste water, but not watching it like a hawk). Boat #2 had no deck fill, and so you had to lug a gross hose down into the saloon, and then it was a two person operation, with one at the tank, below, and the other up top on the valve. Any slight mistake and you had water in the saloon or (dry part of) the bilge. Aggravating. (Actually, you could make it a one-person operation by adding your own nozzle to the dock hose, but it was still a pain.)

Another thought I had after reading Quetzal's post, is - have you seen the combo fill/vents Tim is putting on his Fisher? I have no experience with how those work, but the vent is inside the upper fill tube. I wonder if that would work out under pressure/filling, and let vent spills just head on down into the tank? Let me see if I can find a photo...

I think it's this one:


And ooh, I found a Boat U.S. test article! Great, we don't have to be the guinea pigs :) I have only skimmed it so far, but it looks like it may include some useful information:

Boat U.S. article in which they test vented deck fills

[Figment]

is this milk sour?' Once the idea is in your head.... you can't get it out.

here, taste this... tell me if it's gone bad. :D

[Skipper599]

... really ??? ... which part ... the horrified looks, the ever widening rainbows on the water, or the Eco police???

I just got a sense of "Wink, wink, and we know those silly tree-huggers will be keeping their eyes on us, so let's make sure to keep them off our backs, eh?" vs. actual concern. That may not be what you meant, but it's how it came across to me, reading it, and it made me feel a bit sad.

As long as I'm clearly not "cool" anyway...

When you refuel, keep a squirt bottle of dish detergent topside and if some does make it in the water...give it a few squirts.

When I was first ocean sailing, that's what I heard too. I later found out it's not recommended, because it breaks up the oil and makes it sink (whereas an absorbent picks it up). Here is some info from Boat U.S. Foundation for Boating Safety & Clean Water (I realize Skipper599 is in Canada, but since this is addressing physical phenomena...).

Never treat a fuel spill with dish soap or any other dispersant. This illegal practice “sinks” the fuel causing it to settle to the bottom and contaminate soil.

Oceanconservancy.org agrees:

Accidents happen. Be prepared with absorbent pads to clean oil or fuel spills. Dish soap doesn't work. It just causes those liquids to sink and contaminate the bottom.

That was a good point about the vent. My experience is with vents in the cabin-side, where it was pretty easy to place a fuel diaper just beneath it on deck. I can see where it would be trickier on the transom.

The Boat U.S. article also mentioned this, which I had never heard of. Sounds interesting, if it could be adapted to one's particular vent (article was aimed at fuel dock operators, hence the opening line):

Consider offering tools boaters can use, like bilge socks and absorbent pads, for sale at your fuel dock or ship’s store. Hand out or encourage the use of an absorbent pad around the deck fill to catch spills. Use a fuel collection device suction-cupped over the vessel’s fuel tank vent to catch seepage.

Rachel

Edited to add:
PS: I just re-read Quetzal's post. Isn't it annoying when something like that is set up (or worse, changed) so as to require two people and not one? I had that experience with water-tank fillage. Boat #1 had a deck-fill and the vent overflowed into the galley sink. At a dock, one person could fill the tanks, and even at that had to only keep a cursory eye on it (staying nearby so as not to waste water, but not watching it like a hawk). Boat #2 had no deck fill, and so you had to lug a gross hose down into the saloon, and then it was a two person operation, with one at the tank, below, and the other up top on the valve. Any slight mistake and you had water in the saloon or (dry part of) the bilge. Aggravating. (Actually, you could make it a one-person operation by adding your own nozzle to the dock hose, but it was still a pain.)

Another thought I had after reading Quetzal's post, is - have you seen the combo fill/vents Tim is putting on his Fisher? I have no experience with how those work, but the vent is inside the upper fill tube. I wonder if that would work out under pressure/filling, and let vent spills just head on down into the tank? Let me see if I can find a photo...

I think it's this one:


And ooh, I found a Boat U.S. test article! Great, we don't have to be the guinea pigs :) I have only skimmed it so far, but it looks like it may include some useful information:

Boat U.S. article in which they test vented deck fills

Wow! ... there was certainly no "wink-wink" from me Rachel ... maybe I should feel hurt and sad now as it would appear I have been pre-judged here ... but let's not quarrel over perceived notions. I fully support environmental responsibility and I'm fully familiar with what happens if one uses dish soap to dispel the rainbows. Not unlike what the authorities used when fighting that massive BP oil spill ... wonder where all that oil went?

But, back to the subject at hand. I particularly like the look of the angled combo filler used by Tim. Looks as if it would fit my coamings nicely. Also, when equipped with a whistle, the sound will be right there in the fill tube when filling.

I've not found one marked DIESEL. I wonder if it becomes a "sealed" system when the cap is closed, thus preventing entry of air and creating a vacuum with falling fuel levels during engine operation or, can air enter via the cap as in automotive fillers? ... otherwise, why no DIESEL fillers? ... Maybe they're out there, but I haven't found them.

[Rachel]

Wow! ... there was certainly no "wink-wink" from me Rachel ... maybe I should feel hurt and sad now as it would appear I have been pre-judged here

Skipper599, I didn't mean to "pre-judge" you. I was just reacting to what I read, which I subjectively interpreted - obviously inaccurately. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.

I'm fully familiar with what happens if one uses dish soap to dispel the rainbows. Not unlike what the authorities used when fighting that massive BP oil spill ... wonder where all that oil went?

I really never researched what they used, although I have read snippets here and there suggesting it was pretty toxic. Somewhat hypocritical if it was soap or had the same effect as soap (of "encouraging" it to contaminate the bottom/soil). Of course the whole event was just over the top in the suckegement department. Horrible.

[Skipper599]

Come on people, don't allow this forum deteriorate to the level of others I occasionally frequent. I believe we aspire to higher standards here on Classic Plastic.

Please, - let's stick to the subject and hear other people's opinions on what works for them. I'm about to replace my two fuel fill ports with something of better quality and hopefully, help in the containment of fuel overfill. I'm looking for suggestions or opinions on what to spend my money on. Can anyone tell me if there are DIESEL fillers like the angled ones used by Tim, in the photo produced by Rachel?

[sscoll]

I read about half the posts here then pretty much skipped to respond and apparently missed the pissing contest. My thought here is that you should have something absorbent on hand when fueling for the final droplets and do your fueling quietly so you can hear when the tank is close to full.

I do my own fueling and don't visit with the fuel dock folks when there's flammable fluids pouring into my boat.

Steve

[Skipper599]

Ok, I found the Angled filler marked diesel, and if it's good enough for Tim, it's good enough for me and that's what I shall purchase. My local chandlery does not carry it so I guess I'll have to buy them on-line.