I'm going Waterlift

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Figment
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I'm going Waterlift

Post by Figment »

Though this project is still in the less-than-adventurous stage, here's what I have so far.
I have a plan of action, primarily informed by an installation diagram and parts list generously provided by fellow Tritoner Bruce Hough.

I have a copper monster, removed from it's home of the past 46 years, looking quite forlorn on the ground beneath the boat.
Image
That was the easy part, once again thanks to access provided by absence of icebox.

I have a muffler, vetus NLP40 used via ebay a couple of months ago..
Image
Tim wrote:
Figment wrote:The gooseneck component of the waterlift exhaust was waiting for me when I got home today. It's not exactly "bling", but it'll do.
Details?
I have a gooseneck, Vetus LT40 via the good folks at Torresen.
Image

Still to come are the new exhaust flange and water injection fittings, hose, clamps, and a few custom-fit support brackets and platforms. Oh, and the actual assembly and installation, of course.
I'm debating a seacock at the discharge, and a check-valve after the muffler. At the moment I'm thinking that the seacock is unnecessary, but the check valve might be a good idea.
Last edited by Figment on Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bcooke »

I agree that a seacock on the outlet is probably unnecessary. With the outlet on the counter, a good loop under the poop deck is easy to install and should stop anything but a boat flipping wave from coming in.

That said, I am going to put a seacock on my outlet. What the heck.

Wouldn't a checkvalve get pretty sticky being in the dirty exhaust all the time?

What is the gooseneck for? My installation doesn't have one.

I look forward to seeing how you will support your exhaust. When my exhaust eventually fails, I will have to come up with something better.

Just a thought. One of the reasons I put in those extra hatches in the cockpit was to make replacing the exhaust easier. With the icebox area closed off, access to the A4 exhaust becomes problematic.

-Britton
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Post by bcooke »

P.S.

I am so glad I never had the pleasure of a copper "monster" jacketed exhaust. Ugh. Now if I could just figure out how to quiet down my blower motor I would have a true "whisper drive" system.
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Post by Figment »

You plan to see much bigger water in your boat than I plan to see in mine. If I were building for big water and extended periods under sail, I'd do a seacock too.

The gooseneck is a nod to the danger of backsiphoning without the seacock.
It performs the function of the "high loop" just before the outlet, but the greater volume (vs plain ol' hose) allows a baffling effect, allows it to swallow a bunch of water before it has to send any back down the line. I suppose it also provides some further sound muffling as well, but that's a secondary priority.

Of course, there isn't sufficient height beneath the poop deck to allow it to stand upright, but I'm ok with that. I plan to let it lean it inboard, which will make it more effective when heeled far to port, when it will be most necessary with the outlet submerged.

The check valve I have in mind is a Centek, designed for exhaust use. Looks like a mini-muffler. Moyer seems leery of the backpressure, but the Triton doesn't exactly need every ounce of power the A4 can deliver, and I think I'd rather have the safety factor in place and fall back on removing it later if backpressure turns out to be a real issue.

I don't have any elegant plans for the supports. They'll be knocked together from whatever hunks of plywood I have on hand and 'glassed in place. And zipties. I predict that there will be zipties.

PS: copper monsters build character!
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Post by Tim »

I think the check valve would be redundant in your system, and see no reason why you should install one. The fancy high-volume gooseneck assembly you have purchased will be more than adequate to prevent any water from backflowing through your exhaust; a regular high loop is actually sufficient in nearly all cases. The extra insurance of the gooseneck seems like a reasonable plan, though, if not strictly necessary.

To me, check valves in any system just add one more likely place for failure. For the sort of coastal sailing you do, seacocks or check valves are not called for. Exhaust outlets positioned in the counter are far less likely than straight transom-mounted outlets to suffer from back flow even in a seaway since they are typically submerged, but vertically; some water probably enters the outlet, though minimally, but the submergence actually cushions the opening and prevents following seas from forcing their way up as easily as they might in a transom-mounted outlet.

I installed a bronze inline valve in my exhaust line when I built the system in 2001, but have never closed it for any reason. It was a nod to the possibility of taking the boat further afield at some point in the future, but I don't see a need for such a closure in any boat that remains in coastal sailing and wouldn't bother with one on any boat that had no offshore plans.
Image

Remember also that the waterlift chamber provides significant backflow protection, by virtue of the size of the reservoir, the internal baffling, and my unscientific belief that air and water present in the chamber must also provide its own pressure that helps prevent water from easily entering the downstream portions of the exhaust under typically-encountered conditions.

The old copper exhaust was pretty much a direct pipeline to the engine from the counter-mounted outlet, yet never seemed to create any backflow problems despite having virtually no backflow precautions in place. So the higher-tech (as it were) waterlift should be even more effective.

Powerboats often have check valve-type mufflers installed since their wide outlets, located at or near the waterline, typically get water forced backwards into them when backing down, or in following seas slapping against the boat. Plus, the whole systems tend to be nearly horizontal all the way to the engines themselves. Sailboats don't tend to have this type of problem. I don't think I've ever seen a check valve of any type in a sailboat exhaust. Waterlift chambers effectively provide the same protection on their own.

None of this is intended to minimize the potential of water being forced backwards into a shut-down engine. It is possible, and it has happened, of course. But one has to look at how the susceptible systems were designed. I suspect that in the cases where this happens, either extraordinary weather was to blame, or else one or more components of the exhaust system were improperly installed, poorly designed, or missing entirely.

You already have sufficient safeguard in place with the waterlift muffler, and the baffled gooseneck provides even additional insurance. It'd take a lot to force water up and through that device, as well as the waterlift. I don't think there's a call for any additional components to try and prevent a problem that's already being prevented, and is pretty unlikely in any properly-designed exhaust system to begin with.
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Post by Figment »

Well, it doesn't take much to talk me out of spending another $75.
(make that $100 including hose clamps)
I knew there was a reason I hadn't ordered the check valve yet.

Britton, I just realized what your exhaust suppport "when mine eventually fails" comment was about. You're referring to that long upward pipe assembly that you have cantilevered off the engine flange, right?
I'm going to try to avoid that whole deal.

I'm planning to run only the water line in a high loop with a siphon break, then back down to an injection point in the exhaust just after it exits the manifold. The exhaust itself will have a rather low/shallow run to the muffler, as short as Vetus allows.

Hose.
I've not yet done any homework on the hose. Hardwall, softwall, oldschool black rubber or newfangled siliconized stuff? What's most appropriate for this kind of installation?
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Post by Tim »

Hose.

You should use hardwall hose specifically designated as "certified marine exhaust hose". This'll be the hard, heavy stuff with the wire helix inside, and is designed for the type of long run you're looking at (usually longer than 4X the diameter of the hose). You need hardwall so that you can bend the hose as needed without fear of kinking and collapse. I personally prefer the heaviest wall, thickest stuff available, though it's horrible to work with in tight confines. But exhaust hoses shouldn't be messed around with. Exhaust leaks from cheap hose can ruin your day in a hurry.

The silicone stuff is for high temp, high performance applications. One look at the price of this stuff and you won't worry about considering it anymore.

FWIW, ABYC offers few specifics in terms of hose selection, in case anyone was worried about that. ABYC P-1 is more concerned with the overall safe exhaust system design.
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Post by bcooke »

Well, yes, I do suspect my installation but I was also thinking that all exhaust systems exist in a very corrosive environment and they will all fail. You could go all stainless steel but I think that would be rediculous and even they fail after awhile. Since my little foray into the field of automotive maintenance I have done lots of exhaust work. No matter how hard you try it doesn't really last that long.

I was just thinking about you blocking off your icebox area and wanted to remind you to keep an alternative entry point in mind. Plus, I just thought I was being clever by thinking of it and adding the access and wanted to let everyone else know how clever I thought I was ;-)

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Post by Tim »

Britton, you're so clever!
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Post by Figment »

Tim, what's going on with the foreground pipe fitting in that pic above? Did you reduce the hose diameter for some reason?
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Post by Figment »

I think I have my exhaust path figured out.
My favored place for the muffler is immediately aft of the engine, slightly to port. Unfortunately, that's only about 3" of hose between manifold and muffler, and I think Vetus probably has a good reason for their minimum 12" distance.

In consideration of this, the next best place is directly above the stuffing box.
This is counterintuitive to me, to deliberately install something in such a way that it hinders access to something else.

But then, there are a lot of boats out there with REALLY crappy access to their stuffing box, so I'm on the fence. Is this a mildly flawed idea, or fatally flawed?
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Post by bcooke »

Mine is tight on the inside edge of the port cockpit locker. Access is a breeze and it isn't in the way.... too much.

Well, you could always slide the muffler out of the way without disconnecting the hose to get access to the stuffing box. Unless you needed emergency quick access to the stuffing box I would say this would be fine. It might be an aggravation though.

I vote "Mildly flawed". Anything is better than the original installation which was definitely a "Fatal flaw".

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Post by Tim »

I think it'd be nuts to put something over a stuffing box, knowing full well that it's a bad idea. Production builders cram things in because that's seemingly what the market demands, but it's bad enough to have to deal with an existing installation that offers poor access; given the opportunity to do better during a refit, why shouldn't (or wouldn't) we?

I'm all about access for critical components, no matter what compromises it requires in other areas. If the systems aren't accessible, then they get neglected and can cause some real problems in a tense situation. It's easy to say now that it might be only a minor aggravation, but when you really need access to that thing, you don;t need unnecessary complicating factors.

On that note: do you still have that tiny original deck plate for your stuffing box access? Or have you made a change to a larger hatch? That would affect the feasibility of this waterlift location as well, though I still wouldn't really want to see it in the way of the stuffing box.

While routine maintenance may be OK with a full or partial access blockage from a waterlift, what about in an emergency (not that it will ever happen)? Most serious situations are caused by a series of compounding factors that lead up to the final disaster. So while a catastrophically burst stuffing box might be tolerable on its own, if you need to work around a bulky muffler, or try to somehow move it out of the way first, your situation could change drastically.

Worst-case scenario? Sure. Worry-warty? Maybe. But if one doesn't plan for and expect the worst, one is sure to pay for it sometime down the road. Some situations and installations on board cannot be avoided, and nothing is ever perfect. Still, it's important to do the best possible job and not knowingly cut corners; there are more than enough opportunities to do something less than ideally just because we didn't know better.

Speaking of which:
Figment wrote:Tim, what's going on with the foreground pipe fitting in that pic above? Did you reduce the hose diameter for some reason?
Yes. I shouldn't have, though it hasn't caused any issues. The exhaust outlet on the engine is 2" But I had a 1-1/2" through hull for the engine exhaust that was already installed (and the boat nearly complete by the time I reached the exhaust-installation stage), and I didn't want to change it to 2".

I wouldn't do this again; I know better. Every project is a learning experience, and one never stops learning. I did a lot of things 6 or 7 years ago that I wouldn't do again, whether it's because something didn't work, or I discovered a better way, or because of myriad other reasons. Fortunately, this particular error in judgement hasn't caused any issues, but despite that it was a poor idea and I'd never recommend that anyone follow this particular example!
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Post by Figment »

The location above the stuffing box was primarily driven by a desire to drop the muffler as far below the water injection point as possible. Perching it atop that funny little flat spot just ahead of the rudder post (assuming this is common to all Tritons), only loses a couple of inches of height, and leaves clear access to the stuffing box. dingdingdingdingding we have a winner!
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Image
Pardon the dust. I'd just finished grinding away the cockpit drain tubes.
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Post by Tim »

That's a great location for it. Nice work.
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Post by Figment »

Image
Now how pretty is that?

Image
I tried to wedge the gooseneck up and to the right of the knee, but it became a LOT of effort for very little gain.

Image
Water line with siphon break may be relocated later, but I'm going to call this one DONE.
(well, except for anchoring the muffler and gooseneck. I ran out of ginormous zipties today.)
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Post by Tim »

Nice clamps!

Do you think using the gooseneck was worth it versus a simple hose loop?

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Post by Figment »

After I gave up on the notion of wedging it up to the right of the knee (and man it was SOOOOO close to working), the installation was really zero-effort, so it's simply a matter of it being worth the hundred bucks or not.

I have no basis for evaluation at this point, of course, but I'm going to say "probably". I've grown sick enough of the straight-pipe exhaust that every little bit of extra muffling is pure solid gold. On some dead wind-less day midsummer I'll run that hose direct to the thru-hull and let you know if there is any appreciable difference in the sound.

The whole thing of preventing water from backing down through the system is really secondary for me, but it's cool to know that it's there.
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Post by Figment »

Followup:
Preliminary results are positive. I test-fired the engine prior to launch on Sunday. Between the wind and rain on the roof of the shed and the mechanical sounds of the engine (all hatches and covers wide open), I couldn't hear the exhaust.
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Post by Mark.Wilme »

You are in ?

Last Sunday ? Tax day storm Sunday?
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Post by Figment »

Sorry. Poor wording.

The test-fire was Sunday, prior to the launch which is a few days yet.
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Post by Tim »

Welcome to the quiet world of soothingly spashing water instead of a constant raspberry!
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