Self Drainging Cockpits

[Bluenose]

Reading the post about Triton cockpit drains caused me to think about Bolero's non self draining cockpit. This topic was a big concern for me when this project started. I just couldn't wrap my mind around not having cockpit drains. As it turned out I hardly noticed not having them. In some ways I think Bolero is much nicer without them. Especially compared to my old Bluenose where the cockpit wasn't much higher than the waterline and the drains were pretty small (I always jumped up and down on the bow to get the last bits of water to drain after washing). Little water makes its way into Bolero's cockpit and what does immediately goes into the cockpit bildge so the floor stays dry. In addition the cockpit cover works well for rain. I first thought that putting on and taking off a cover would really be a pain, but it doesn't take much longer than than removing a mainsail cover. In addition having the cover on really helps keep the boat and her acres of varnish clean and tidy.

Hopefully things will get even better this season with a new, and easier to install, cover and a better cockpit bilge pump.

In my mind his was a very good trade. Cockpit drains verses a deep, snug and dry (relative) cockpit.

[Peter]

A lot of Folkboats (original design) have deep cockpits. It doesn't seem to be an issue, as long as you have a cover. In fact it looks pretty cosy, hunkered down there out of the wind!

I guess these two guys at my marina didn't know about covering the cockpit during periods of heavy rain we had last week :-(

[Bluenose]

Peter,

You always seem to have the perfect picture no matter what the topic of discussion. They either needed a cockpit cover or maybe a pair of your drying legs.

There would also be a measure of neglect in order for a boat to sink due to rain. You would have to leave it for some time in quite a storm for it to sink on you. Somewhere I calculated the amount of rain necessary to just fill Bolero's bilge and it was a pretty good sum. The amount require to sink her... well from a marketing standpoint is infinite :)



But since several Shields have sunk I think it is a bit less than this picture.

The ironic thing about sailing Bolero is my worry about sinking, not having any holes in the hull, is the opposite of most sailors worry, having too many holes in the hull.

Cheers, Bill

[Rachel]

Some friends of mine have a Pearson Ensign, which has a deep (non-self-draining) cockpit. What a pleasure it is to sail it, sitting on the teak benches, "up to your armpits" in sailboat :)

They keep theirs on a mooring, just with a fitted boom tent type of cover.

Rachel

[Bluenose]

What a pleasure it is to sail it, sitting on the teak benches, "up to your armpits" in sailboat :)

Rachel,

You really hit the nail on the head with your description. The difference between sailing "on" the Bluenose sloop, which really has too low a freeboard for a self draining cockpit, and sitting "in" Bolero is night and day.





Laura feel much more relaxed in the larger, deeper and more stable Bolero. Although to be fair I really haven't had a chance to push the ole gal yet. I mean the boat of course.

[Tim]

Boats like the powerboat shown above don't sink at the dock because the rain fills the cockpit...they sink at the deck because the bilge pump fails, causing the bilge to fill with rainwater, which then weights the boat enough so that the self-draining cockpit scuppers submerge, which then allows inflooding of water in catastrophic amounts.

Self-bailing cockpits aren't any good if there's any place for rainwater to get into the bilge itself. So many small-medium powerboats have this flaw, and many sinkings occur as a result.

[Tim]

Of course it ought to go without saying here that sailboats with large, non-self-bailing cockpits are intended for inshore use in protected waters, where boarding seas shouldn't theoretically be part of the concern. But I said it anyway.

The only practical concern for sailboats with non-self-bailing cockpits is high gusts of wind that historically have been known to submerge the coamings on many Ensigns, Shields, and similar boats, causing the cockpit to flood and, in many cases, the boats to sink (despite the supposed positive flotation that these boats contain). Obviously, prudent seamanship ought to negate this particular concern for all practical purposes.

[Bluenose]

Of course it ought to go without saying here that sailboats with large, non-self-bailing cockpits are intended for inshore use in protected waters, where boarding seas shouldn't theoretically be part of the concern. But I said it anyway.

The only practical concern for sailboats with non-self-bailing cockpits is high gusts of wind that historically have been known to submerge the coamings on many Ensigns, Shields, and similar boats, causing the cockpit to flood and, in many cases, the boats to sink (despite the supposed positive flotation that these boats contain). Obviously, prudent seamanship ought to negate this particular concern for all practical purposes.

I have this distance need to roll my eyes and say "yes Dad". But of course Tim is spot on. And of course he causes me to think and ask questions.

Weren't most of the boats that visit this forum designed for protected coastal waters? The other thing that I have often wondered about is what makes a boat like the Shields more likely to be knocked down and flooded? Her low freeboard, her large sail area, the fact that they are raced with full sails in atrocious conditions? The Shields has a ballast ratio of 67% so it seems you would really have to work pretty hard to knock one over.

The other question that I have pondered before is just how effective are self bailing cockpits. I have often read about smallish cruising boats that have gained a few pounds that will start taking on water with a full cockpit of guests. Boats like this seem to have a small margin of safety since it seems that they might find an equilibrium, after a breaking wave, with a cockpit water depth that is higher than the bridge deck. Large cockpit drains in this case might be a two edge sword.

All that said, I do take the very real possibility of flooding and sinking in Bolero quite seriously. Initially I had even designed an emergency high capacity pumping system to try and pump out a flooded but still, barely, floating hull (like in the marketing photo above). I developed a real respect for the quantity and weight of water in a flooding situation (in the Shields I estimated something like 10,000 pounds).

The funny thing is that I never really thought about flooding in the Bluenose even with her massive cockpit and pair of 3/4 inch cockpit drains.

[David]

<<The other question that I have pondered before is just how effective are self bailing cockpits. I have often read about smallish cruising boats that have gained a few pounds that will start taking on water with a full cockpit of guests. Boats like this seem to have a small margin of safety since it seems that they might find an equilibrium, after a breaking wave, with a cockpit water depth that is higher than the bridge deck. Large cockpit drains in this case might be a two edge sword. >>

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here. If you mean the weight of the water in the cockpit will depress the boat into the water enough that large cockpit drains will not clear the water--essentially the water level in the cockpit would be the same as outside the cockpit--which I would call swamped, then I disagree with your observation of self bailing cockpits. I don't know the size of the Triton's cockpit (smaller than my Bristol's) but my Bristol 29's cockpit is about 36 cubic feet up to the tops of the coaming boards. If the cockpit filled with water from a wave that would be 2304 pounds of sea water, which would depress my B29 a bit over 3 inches into the seas. So the drains would still clear the water. In reality the boat moving in seas large enough to fill the cockpit would slosh half that water back out immediately. The drains would clear the rest.

[Tim]

Weren't most of the boats that visit this forum designed for protected coastal waters?

Yes, true enough. But there's a difference between boats with full weather decks, higher topsides, wider beams, closed interiors, and self-bailing cockpits and open, day-use only one-designs with deep, non-self-bailing cockpits and low freeboard, combined with narrow sidedecks, lack of bridge decks, and ease of complete flooding.

"Dad" says so. Eye roll right backatcha.

Practically speaking, no one in a boat with open, non-self-bailing cockpit is ever likely to press the envelope and have this sort of potential problem. But there are clearly limitations to all designs. Stay within those limitations.

The other thing that I have often wondered about is what makes a boat like the Shields more likely to be knocked down and flooded? Her low freeboard, her large sail area, the fact that they are raced with full sails in atrocious conditions? The Shields has a ballast ratio of 67% so it seems you would really have to work pretty hard to knock one over.

Perhaps, yet we know it's happened in several documented cases in a number of similar one-designs (similar in terms of low freeboard, open cockpits, narrow decks, and non-self-bailing). It may not be frequent, but it happens. We can't point to the same known documentation of this happening to the "other" boats in the same sorts of situations. Remember, we're not talking offshore here.

It's really common sense, now. Are you really wondering, or just asking in an academic sense?



This does not tend to happen to "other" boats--i.e. the "coastal" boats sailing in the same conditions that happen to have higher sides, wider beams, self-bailing cockpits, and so forth. I am stopping well short of saying it can't or won't happen, but there are many more design factors in place to prevent it.

I saw the same thing as befell Shields 231 in the photo above happen to a local Ensign a number of years ago, the difference being that the boat was not completely sunk and lost--just swamped. Sure, human error tends to lead to these issues, but then doesn't human error ultimately lead to most issues? Once water gets in, say over the coamings, there's little to stop it from filling the boat if the operator can't correct the condition with quick action. Boats with full weatherdecks and the other features are certainly more forgiving of flooding in this situation.

[Quetzalsailor]

Seems to me exceedingly desirable to let the water out of a boat as quickly as practicable. A ton of water in a slow-draining cockpit will affect handling and would leave the boat more vulnerable to the next wave. A slow-draining cockpit will let the leaks at lazarettes, etc., feed more water below than would a momentarily-filled cockpit.

If the cockpit floor is too low then it will begin to fill with excess crew, poor trim or under power. Not usually too serious, but unsettling and occasionally uncomfortable.

However pretty a low-freeboard open keelboat is, and I certainly would not avoid owning one, I'd always be fretting about swamping it. I'd be happier to have enough flotation built into it.

The drains on our NE 38 are too small (especially with dog hair in 'em), the sill to the companionway is lower than the coamings.

[Bluenose]

Tim,

I am not trying to stir anything up. I just seem to question everything and I like to think a bit outside the box. Just curious I guess.

Cheers, Bill

[Zach]

I think it is a valid point...

The idea that has been running through my mind, is why not have some stand pipes running up high enough that the boat doesn't fill full of water with folks on board...

But will still drain 80% out, leaving the last bit to keep your feet wet... till you pump it out.

I'm considering glassing in some solid tubes at the aft end of my cockpit just in case she gets pooped... but take them up high enough to never let water in.

My angle is that I want to give a shot at running the forward drains out above the water line on each side... theory being that the dynamic water line doesn't let water in the low side under sail. Shouldn't let any in no matter where the outlet is... but water doesn't drain uphill all that quick... Filler'up and it'd take twice as long to drain out the one hole running down hill... (grin)

Hence two more big drains that ought to be short and stout enough to give as much worry as the rudder tube... (Though my rudder tube leaks... maybe I should reconsider. Grin!)

Zach

P.S. I guess there is a point of no return where you swamp a boat, and any drain reverses the flow and lets water in instead of out. Harumph.

[Tim]

Folks, don't mess with what we all know works. Attempting to somehow improve upon what can't be improved upon is just fruitless and will likely lead to unpleasant problems if you proceed.

In a Triton, the drains need to go out the way they go out. Leave well enough alone. Inflooding isn't a problem, so there's nothing to fix.

Really. Leave well enough alone.

[jollyboat]

Ahhh, music to my ears - thanks Tim for putting so nicely what I am screaming about as I thrash around in convulsions at my desk. Yes, Alberg new what he was doing when he designed the Triton and the basics of the boat need to be left alone. You want to do something nice for your Triton, buy it a case of fine beer and a big sandwich and go sailing - you will both enjoy it very much. Just maintaining the established basics of the boat is far more than enough to do than trying to re-invent the boat. ( !!#@$*&%!! - seathing spew, witches brew, convulsions, tantrums, head beating on desk & all that wow)

[Chris Campbell]

And if, while you're out sailing with your sandwich and beer, you decide that you really need to keep your feet out of a bit of water when you've overloaded the cockpit - build a cockpit grating that raises the cockpit level an inch, and you won't notice the water there until you've really overloaded the cockpit.

[Zach]

Different strokes... Grin.

You guys are right. Replacing what is there with like components is the smart, and easy way to go about things. To do something different takes time and money... and is of questionable value. But if you want to have your cake and eat it too, you've first got to bake a cake.

If you want to make a Triton into a day sailor, or ocean crossing boat... there are things that work in stock form, and would work just fine sailing, but beg to be modified for the users intended purpose.

Do the stock christmas trees work? Stock hose length? What came from the factory, is less than stellar yet worked for 50 years. Its all a matter of what keeps you up at night.

Zach - One of those nuts that can't leave anything well enough alone.

[jollyboat]

There are plenty of Tritons that have succefully achieved major blue water cruising feats with very little changes made to the stock configuration. If I were to consider something like an ocean crossing in a Triton I would attend to a few details to ensure a safe and comfortable trip as well but those changes would not stray to far from the basic boat as is. At the end of the day, picking and chosing the time of year in concern to destinations will of upmost importance on a Triton regardless of what has been done to the boat to prepair it for ocean voyaging. With that said, there have been weeks and weeks of perfect weather on the Atlantic where boats far less admired than the Triton could make a crossing without issue, so the real concern is poor weather and no matter what mods are made to a Triton, poor weather will still have the upper hand in determining the level of misery that is on 28 foot boat that was really designed for coastal cruising.