A New Mast and Rig for Triton

[Triton 185]

I originally posted the Condition of Mast topic in the Questions and Answers Forum......I thought I would move it to Sails, Rigging and Systems because it seems to fit better. I will be getting the used mast in about 3 weeks and it will go onto my Triton. It is set up for a twin headsail sloop. One of the forestays is about 12" lower than the other, as in a Solent stay arrangement. Seldon said it is the correct section for the Triton with the consideration of the additional sail area from adding a bowsprit and another headsail. They also said that I would need only one spreader, not any jumpers, and not the double spreader arrangement it has now.

This is what the new (used) mast looks like:







As for fitting it out...all the standing rigging will be new. I have a set of jumpers, but they are toasted. The main I have is in good shape, the jibs I have will work as the staysail/spitfire, and their configuration will not change as the stay will go to the orginal stem location. I'm thinking that I can use the shorter main for a while until I get a new one and then use it as a backup.

So, my question are:

1. Should I leave the mast 39' (as it is now) or cut it down to the 38' height I have on the boat now?
2. Any thoughts on using the double spreader arrangement the mast is now set up with?
3. What about the jumpers?
4. I am planning on removing the plastic mast base and machining a piece of billet aluminium to replace it. I'm thinking this would be a better way to attach the mast base to the hinged mast step?

As always, any thoughts and feedback are appreciated.

Triton 185

[bcooke]

It is set up for a twin headsail sloop.

Cool!

My thinking is that you should be consulting a professional rigger on these questions. - particularly about the spreaders and # of stays. These are critical high stress points where you really don't want to guesstimate.

So are your forestays going to the masthead or are you keeping the 7/8ths arrangement? I assumed from your post a masthead placement in which case the jumpers should not be part of the plan. Their only reason to be there is to support the forward section of mast above the 'normal' 7/8ths Triton forestay.

My personal opinion is that the rigging is a high stress area with lots of possibilities for drastic and fatal errors to occur. I would definitely go with the pros on this one.

-Britton

[Figment]

They also said that I would need only one spreader, not any jumpers, and not the double spreader arrangement it has now.

I'm inclined to agree. For which boat was this mast originally built?

1. I'd leave it long.
2. If Selden says the spar can span with only single spreaders, I wouldn't bother with the complication of doubles. Just more tuning.
3. Britton has it right. No jumpers if masthead.
4. I abstain.

[Tim]

Seldon said it is the correct section for the Triton with the consideration of the additional sail area from adding a bowsprit and another headsail. They also said that I would need only one spreader, not any jumpers, and not the double spreader arrangement it has now.

They're the builder of the spar and all that, but this statement begs the question of why the mast was fitted with double spreaders in the first place?

My own thought would be that if you're planning to use the spar pretty much as is, then why go around changing everything about it? Complexity of double spreaders and associated rigging aside (which is probably less complex than jumper struts), isn't it just as complex ultimately to reconfigure the whole spar just to reduce the number of spreaders?

If I were going to use that spar as is, I'd use it as is. If you planned on just using the extrusion to replicate the "original" Triton rig (i.e. fractional with jumpers), then it'd be another story.

If you have a rigger you like, it's time for a local consult.

[Triton 185]

So are your forestays going to the masthead or are you keeping the 7/8ths arrangement? I assumed from your post a masthead placement in which case the jumpers should not be part of the plan. Their only reason to be there is to support the forward section of mast above the 'normal' 7/8ths Triton forestay.

I'm thinking the forestay on the sprit is going to the masthead and the staysail stay would go from the original stem to sort of the 7/8th location on the mast. (Imagine that they are parallel to each other) I believe the mast section is solid enough to do this without running backs or jumpers.

I hear clearly the advice on asking a rigger. Thanks.

[Triton 185]

For which boat was this mast originally built?

The mast came off a Gemini 105Mc. It is a cat and can be seen at the following:

www.geminicatamarans.com

When I contacted Seldon and sent them all of the specs on the Triton and the rig configuration I was planning – I was surprised that this mast section was the one they recommended.

[Triton 185]

My own thought would be that if you're planning to use the spar pretty much as is, then why go around changing everything about it? Complexity of double spreaders and associated rigging aside (which is probably less complex than jumper struts), isn't it just as complex ultimately to reconfigure the whole spar just to reduce the number of spreaders?

I am thinking of using the spar without the jumpers, but I have been considering using the double spreaders because they are there already. I have (some) concerns that this could add some complexity to the rig, tuning, and weight aloft, but think the added stability and simplicity of going with what already is - has much merit. The only thing I am thinking of changing, is from the existing Solent stay to parallel forestays. This would allow me to use my original Triton jibs without having to replace them. As well, I think the jib on the sprit would be easier to work......although I think I will have to at least partially furl it when running it past the staysail.

[Triton 185]

Hello....well I finally transported the new mast to my Triton last week. As it turns out, it is actually 40' and not the 39' I was told. I needed to transport it about 100 kms (60 miles). After looking at getting it moved by someone else, I opted to move it myself.



I took our dinghy trailer and added a 32' section of 3" x 3" steel over the top of the original 18' trailer frame. I had 4 large U-bolts made up and also through bolted in several places.



It worked out that I had 125 lbs of tongue weight. In order to hold the mast I made some wood "H" brackets. I capped the top of the brackets, but left some space for protective carpet and to allow the mast to "float" while the trailer flexed.



I contacted motor vehicles to see if I needed a permit and they said I didn't.

I was nervous at first, but the rig ended up pulling real well at highway speeds. Thought this system might work for someone else!

[Rachel]

Cool! As soon as you said "I decided to move it myself," I just couldn't scroll down fast enough. Great rig :)

I moved the mast for my Monty 17 about 85 miles on top of my 1987 Toyota Tercel wagon. Not nearly as much to engineer as yours; I only had to made extra supports that sat on the (nicely flat-topped) front and rear bumpers, plus a flag and light on the tail end.

I only had one bit of excitement when the car started to overheat and I realized I'd put the bottom board of the triangular support right in front of the one bit of grille that really mattered. Sure, the grille ran across the whole front of the car, but that was apparently mostly for symmetry.

Congrats on getting it home yourself, and I'm sure future readers will benefit from your methods.

Rachel

[David]

So are your forestays going to the masthead or are you keeping the 7/8ths arrangement? I assumed from your post a masthead placement in which case the jumpers should not be part of the plan. Their only reason to be there is to support the forward section of mast above the 'normal' 7/8ths Triton forestay.

I'm thinking the forestay on the sprit is going to the masthead and the staysail stay would go from the original stem to sort of the 7/8th location on the mast. (Imagine that they are parallel to each other) I believe the mast section is solid enough to do this without running backs or jumpers.

I hear clearly the advice on asking a rigger. Thanks.

You will definitely need running back stays to offset the inner forestay. As to the double spreader arrangement, it would have been used for inboard chainplates. If you are attaching your shrouds to the original Triton chainplates, you won't need double spreaders at all; however I would guess the spreaders will need to be longer to accomodate the beam of the Triton.

Is the original Triton mast that tall (39 or 40 feet)?

[Triton 185]

[quote]I only had one bit of excitement when the car started to overheat and I realized I'd put the bottom board of the triangular support right in front of the one bit of grille that really mattered. Sure, the grille ran across the whole front of the car, but that was apparently mostly for symmetry.[quote]

I hate when vehicles overheat! Did you wait for the car to cool or did you have to rework your stand? I was thinking of using my truck (in the background) and making a support off the front bumper, but opted for the lower trailer because it would be easier to load and unload.

[Rachel]

I should have said that the car "began to overheat." I pulled over as soon as the needle began to climb, figured out what was going on, and moved the board over to one side.

What sounded too stupid to mention, was that then the board was partially blocking one of the headlights (although not the turn signal). It was daylight, although I did start to feel a bit rushed as it got dusky and I wasn't quite to my destination. I did NOT want to move it all again. I did just nip in before I felt I would have needed my headlights, thank goodness.

Ah, More Mast Moving Memories...

Rachel

[jollyboat]

Nice mast. Keep the mast the same length. Sail area will not gain so much to worry about and you can always reef if need be. You might noticed a slight difference in the heeling action as well the point of hardening up but I doubt much. Keep the two spreaders, removing one set will mean relocation of the single set location. You will not need running backstays but the addition of check stays at the inner forstay mast position is nice to have when beating to weather. Which of course on a cutter rig you will be using the jib and not the genoa in any brisk breeze. This will require a taught headstay with minimal sag and controlled deflection gained through the check stays. I am not a big fan of altering Albergs designed sailplan for the Triton - he knew his business very well. That is not to say that different rigs would not work and obviously there have been many rig changes performed on Tritons that have worked just fine. My personal issues with this are not so much with the abillity of the boat handle this change, but more with what is thought might be gained by the change - given the originally intended work of the boat - i.e. CCA rule defined, coastal cruiser, racer, fair weather family sailor - which it will always be. A Triton is not a Pacific Seacraft, a Nauticat or a Moody - it's a Triton.

P.S. A deck mounted retractable, carbon fiber sprit combined with a asymmetrical spinnaker 7/8ths hoist would allow for the greatest versitillity and overall performance gains on a Triton than any other sprit sail combination.

[Triton 185]

You will definitely need running back stays to offset the inner forestay. As to the double spreader arrangement, it would have been used for inboard chainplates. If you are attaching your shrouds to the original Triton chainplates, you won't need double spreaders at all; however I would guess the spreaders will need to be longer to accomodate the beam of the Triton.

Is the original Triton mast that tall (39 or 40 feet)?

I took some measurments today. It seems that the new mast is 39'6" long. As well the lower spreader is 42" long in comparison to the Tritons original 38" spreader length.

I will post drawing of the spreaders and rig shortly.

[/quote]

[Triton 185]

Hi Tim,

I have made an AutoCAD drawing of the new mast and have also scanned it to a word document. I have tried to post both of these formats, but have had no luck....any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Stephen

[Triton 185]

Albergs designed sailplan for the Triton - he knew his business very well. That is not to say that different rigs would not work and obviously there have been many rig changes performed on Tritons that have worked just fine. My personal issues with this are not so much with the abillity of the boat handle this change, but more with what is thought might be gained by the change - given the originally intended work of the boat - i.e. CCA rule defined, coastal cruiser, racer, fair weather family sailor - which it will always be. A Triton is not a Pacific Seacraft, a Nauticat or a Moody - it's a Triton.

P.S. A deck mounted retractable, carbon fiber sprit combined with a asymmetrical spinnaker 7/8ths hoist would allow for the greatest versitillity and overall performance gains on a Triton than any other sprit sail combination.

I am looking for more sail area for light air. The purpose of the sprit is to allow me to fly more sail. I would love a carbon fiber sprit with a code zero furler, but I am thinking a turned Sitka spar with whiskers and a bob stay is more affordable. (Perhaps you can recommend a place to get a quote on a carbon fiber sprit?)

[Quetzalsailor]

Stephen,

I'm an AutoCAD sufferer, too. Plot your drawing as an Adobe .pdf. Then open it and 'saveas' a .jpg. You can then upload it to any website that will accept an uploaded picture and then enter its address on this website. You can see my simple AutoCAD sketch of a stove on this forum, with pictures, done this way.

You can also plot the drawing, scan it, save it as a .jpg, if you have hand-entered additions to it.

You can convert your word .doc to a .pdf, then convert the .pdf to a .jpg and upload it as a picture as above.

Read the 'how to post pictures' and see if there's a shortercut that does not involve a separate site to host your picture (I never succeeded that way)

D

[Rachel]

You do need to have your image hosted somewhere (else) in order to post it here, btw.

R.

[Zach]

I've found the easiest way to get a picture from a cad system is to do it with a screen shot.

Click screen shot on the keyboard, and paste it into paint... save as a .jpg.

Zach

[Bluenose]

Albergs designed sailplan for the Triton - he knew his business very well. That is not to say that different rigs would not work and obviously there have been many rig changes performed on Tritons that have worked just fine. My personal issues with this are not so much with the abillity of the boat handle this change, but more with what is thought might be gained by the change - given the originally intended work of the boat - i.e. CCA rule defined, coastal cruiser, racer, fair weather family sailor - which it will always be. A Triton is not a Pacific Seacraft, a Nauticat or a Moody - it's a Triton.

P.S. A deck mounted retractable, carbon fiber sprit combined with a asymmetrical spinnaker 7/8ths hoist would allow for the greatest versitillity and overall performance gains on a Triton than any other sprit sail combination.

I am looking for more sail area for light air. The purpose of the sprit is to allow me to fly more sail. I would love a carbon fiber sprit with a code zero furler, but I am thinking a turned Sitka spar with whiskers and a bob stay is more affordable. (Perhaps you can recommend a place to get a quote on a carbon fiber sprit?)

There are a couple of commercial options for retractable bowsprits. Seldon and Sparcraft makes them in Aluminum and Carbon. This is the Carbon Seldon.



Also I have posted a number of Autocad drawings to the forum so let me know if you have any questions.

Edit: I also found the link to JSI which has some other removable bowsprit options.

http://www.newjsi.com/bowsprits.aspx

[Triton 185]

D, R, Zach, and Tim,

Thanks for all your suggestions and help. I have spent lots of time with CAD but not on forums. Thanks for all the suggestions – next time I will be able to post my .dwg myself. This time I bailed and sent the file to Tim.

[Triton 185]

There are a couple of commercial options for retractable bowsprits. Seldon and Sparcraft makes them in Aluminum and Carbon. This is the Carbon Seldon.

Edit: I also found the link to JSI which has some other removable bowsprit options.

http://www.newjsi.com/bowsprits.aspx

Thanks Bill,

I will check out the cost from these manufacturers.

Regarding Seldon – The new Triton mast is made by them and I am in the process of purchasing a new Seldom boom. I will ask for a quote on a carbon sprit. Maybe I can get the full meal deal!

Stephen

PS – Bolero Blue Rocks

[Bluenose]

Stephen,

The retractable bowsprit is one of those things I wanted to want even though I don't need it. I just love the idea of the asym and the bowsprit, and a furler if you really want to ding the checking account. In the end Bolero has been quite nice in light air and I haven't even hoisted a spinnaker or a genoa yet.

As for "Bolero Blue" Tim claim he would paint her any color I wanted... yea right!

It sounds like have gotten some great advice about getting some professional input about the rigging. I did just get a copy of Brion Toss's book and he has a nice section on chasing the loads around the rigging. One of my winter plans (probably not this one) is to try and reverse engineer the Shields to get a good handle on rigging and hull loads. Just my idea of winter fun. In any case I would had to the many recommendations from this forum for his book.

Cheers, Bill

[Tim]

[Triton 185]

As for "Bolero Blue" Tim claim he would paint her any color I wanted... yea right!

It was destined then!

[Triton 185]

Thanks for posting the drawing Tim.

The previous drawing shows the new mast mounted on the Triton. I haven’t measured the distance between the port and starboard chainplates, but guestimate they are about 8’ apart.

I appreciate all of the feedback and the clear recommendations to talk to a rigger – which I haven’t done yet, but will eventually. Since this isn’t going to happen for a while I thought I would ask your opinions on spreader lengths – which I profess to know little about.

I measured my original Triton spreaders and they are 38”. The new masts lower spreaders are 42”. (The mast came off a catamaran)

When I look at the drawing it looks ok to me, but what do you think?

Thanks!

[Tim]

The chainplates are right inboard of the toerail, and the original spreader length causes the shrouds to be essentially vertical/plumb in their run from spreader to chainplate. This is desirable and de rigueur in most spar designs.

4" additional spreader length will cause the shrouds to angle inboard from spreader to chainplate, which isn't necessarily the end of the world but is not very common either, and will also further reduce the already pathetic genoa sheeting angle of the Triton, which may have a noticeable impact on sailing performance.

[Zach]

Hey,

I'm curious what mast section that is, if seldon recommends it. Grin.. and if you've installed it! Bigger Grin.

I'm also curious if the mast is wider than the original, or skinnier... as that'd play into the overall width too, beyond just spreader length.

Thanks! (Looking into a new mast...)

Zach

[Tim]

Thanks! (Looking into a new mast...)

Why?

[Duncan]

I measured my original Triton spreaders and they are 38”. The new masts lower spreaders are 42”...When I look at the drawing it looks ok to me, but what do you think?

If the spreaders have a straight section before the taper begins (most do), perhaps you can remove the mast-end plug, and cut the spreader to the correct length.

[Zach]

Thanks! (Looking into a new mast...)

Why?

The bottom 3 feet of mine is swiss chese with holes... and corroded in a deep gropve around from an boom vang...







Less than confidence inspiring... plus I'd kinda like as taller masthead rig strong enough to fly a huge drifter... (grin)

I'm building a tabernacle, so the lowest bit will get chopped off anyway... but want to know how wide the next extrusion will be so I don't have to work twice.

Thanks,

Zach

[Triton 185]

Hi Zach,

The Seldon mast section is larger fore and aft than the original Triton mast. (I will take some measurements later today)

Seldon said that given the righting moment of the Triton, the elimination of the jumpers, and the twin headsail arrangement, the C193 section (3.18 lbs. per foot) is the best suited, with a single set of spreaders.

The mast I purchased has a double set of spreaders - I am going to keep that arrangement as Tim suggested. That way I don't have to re-configure anything.

I'll get you some more information soon.

Stephen

[Triton 185]

Hi Zach,

The Seldon mast section is 6 3/4" x 4 3/4".

Stephen

[Zach]

Thanks Stephen!