Two Part Anchor System

[Bluenose]

I am trying to think a little outside the box for Bolero's anchor system design and I would love some feedback. My goals are to create an anchor system that will keep my boat safe within the limits of the worst situations that I can project. At the same time weight is a big issue and since I don't have a bowspirt or anchor roller, ease of use is also a concern.

Rereading the great Primary Anchor Selection thread I noticed this quote from Tim:

I freely admit to overkill when it comes to equipping my boat. But everything I do, and all the gear I buy, has the sole purpose of keeping my boat, and her occupants, safe in any conceivable situation. I'd rather have too much than be wanting for something critical. 90% of the time, a 12# Danforth with 6' of vinyl coated chain and 100' of rode will fit the bill...but during that final 10% of the time, watch out!

So my thought was setting up my bow anchor to the 90% of the time scenario. In my case that would be my 16 pound Bruce with 6 feet of vinyl coats chain and 150 ft of rode. In addition I would store 1 or 2 30 ft sections of chain and the largest collapsible Fortress anchor I could fit in the bilge.

My rational for this comes from two directions. First, I think that the 10% of the time occurrences happen with some warning up here in the Pacific Northwest. And second, the primary purpose of Bolero will be daysailing. So the primary purpose for my anchor will be a lunch hook or an emergency brake. Perhaps I might spend one night on this hook if the wind dies and I choose not to row home.

For the times I plan to weekend, I can easily replace the short chain with my long chain and in dire situations I could set the Fortress as a second anchor.

By setting up for the 10% solution I remove some of the weight from the bow but more importantly this removes that 30 ft of deck and topside mangling chain from 90% of my anchor situations.

Well that my story. What do you'all think?

[LazyGuy]

I like your idea except I would go with Fortress and 6 feet of chain versus the Bruce with 6 feet. The Fortress (Danforth style anchor) is designed to work with 6-8 feet of chain while the Bruce is designed to work with significantly more. I have a Bruce and love it but it resides on the bow on a roller with 35 feet of chain. I consider that acceptable for 98% of the time with the remaining 2% being "You are an idiot for being in this situation in the first place." I do have a back up smaller Bruce and an aluminum Fortress along with a rode and the appropriate amount of chain for each but it is a cruising boat. Your boat is sensitive to weight so I would keep the lighter danforth and much lighter 6 feet versus 30 feet of chain handy.

Since you need to go to the bow to anchor anyway, I would consider storing both anchors low and toward the keel. If you need a lunch hook, grab the lightweight Fortress and head for the bow. Staying the night? Time for Bruce. I hate to see a beautiful sleek racing boat with an anchor hanging off the bow pulpit. If you use one everytime you are out, is it prudent to hang it there but if you only use it occasionally, keep it fairly handy below.

On the Sea Sprite 23 I kept the end of the chain lashed to the bow pulpit and the anchor in the bow on top of the rest of the rode. When I needed it, I would pop it right out of the bow hatch and attach the shackle.

The reason I know about the Fortress and 6' of chain was the test Practical Sailor did on anchors a while back. The Danforth and Fortress did significantly worse than the others. The following month the Danforth manufacturer explained that the 30' of chain keeps the shank too low and the resulting geometry keeps the flukes skipping across the bottom. With the 6' of chain per the manufacturer's recommendation, the shank lifts, lifting the heel helping the fluke to grab. EDIT: I just went to both the Fortress and Danforth websites. The Danforth recommends a certain weight and length of chain depending on the anchor (between 3 and 8 feet of chain) while Fortress suggests 6 feet of chain per 25 feet of anchor depth. (This seems ridiculous - keep 3 or 4, 6 foot lenghts of chain on hand depending on where you are going to anchor?) Anyway, short chain, Danforth style. Long chain Bruce.

The Bruce has NEVER failed me. One time I had a hard time setting it in 48 feet of water in the Salt Pond at Block Island but other than that, it has worked flawlessly even the night in Long Island when the wind piped up to 30 - 35 with gusts well over 40. I took a few bearings before sunset and after a sleepless night, I got up the next morning and was in the same exact spot.

Just my opinion.

[Tim]

First, I think that the 10% of the time occurrences happen with some warning up here in the Pacific Northwest.

If you have warning and can optimize your anchor setup in advance, then you're still falling into that 90% comfort category.

The 10% time happens when you're unprepared, unexpectedly, and usually by factors entirely out of your control. Such as, for example, a former America's Cup challenger skipper from a romantic European nation dragging his 60' boat onto you in about 25 seconds.

There's no time to change the setup in preparation for something like this, and the only consolation and means towards a happier ending may be that you have the best anchor setup already on the bottom.

My own way of thinking, therefore, is that only the "real" anchor goes to the bottom each time because you just never know what might happen around you, and how what you're tied to on the bottom might have a real effect on the outcome.

[Bluenose]

The 10% time happens when you're unprepared, unexpectedly, and usually by factors entirely out of your control. Such as, for example, a former America's Cup challenger skipper from a romantic European nation dragging his 60' boat onto you in about 25 seconds.

I have read that story many, many times. And every time I was relieved that you came out of that in the shape that you did. But here is where my vision doesn't get to have that set of belt and suspenders. If I carried the maximum anchor system for my boat for hurricane winds it still couldn't survive a boat of that magnitude dragging down on me. The only way I could do that was to carry an anchor sized for a much larger boat than Bolero. That system could neither be carried from the cockpit or hung from her small bow.

The reality of my last boat and also of Bolero is that my anchor system can only protect my boat from the wind and seas and I have sized the system for 100 kt winds using the Pardey's method to the best of my ability. The forces on an anchor system is directly proportional to the frontal area and about a square factor to wind speed. Bolero's curse, and blessing, is that she has almost no real frontal area compared to most boats. Just about any boat dragging down on us will be a catastrophe.

I have thought about what I would do in the same situation and I don't like my choices. With 25 seconds of warning, in that situation, I guess I would cut my anchor rode fend off the best I could. I have been quite impressed with the sailing abilities of my old Bluenose under bare poles. She could actually sail a bit closer than a beam reach. If Bolero will do that maybe I could buy the minute I would need to get some sail up. Maybe...

What I do know is that it is far easier to plan for the consequences of my own choices than it is to plan for other peoples choices and the resulting consequences.

My own way of thinking, therefore, is that only the "real" anchor goes to the bottom each time because you just never know what might happen around you, and how what you're tied to on the bottom might have a real effect on the outcome.

I may not have been very clear in my earlier post. The 16 pound Bruce is the real anchor in my system. The parts that I am not using all of the time are the 30 ft of chain and any rode longer than 150 ft. The Fortress in the bilge is would be my storm anchor in conjunction with the Bruce. The current plan is to permanently store the Bruce in a forward anchor locker. Well that is if Tim can find a way to get 16 lbs of Bruce into a 10 lb sack.

[suntreader]

Most of the time the problem is not conditions when you anchor, but how they develop afterwards. Unless you are always anchoring for that 10% you're going to get caught. It's like only wearing your motorcycle helmet when the traffic is bad, not effective unless you wear it every time.

I would go with more chain before a bigger hook. I've tried sitting on the bottom and watching the anchor rode in different conditions. With 60 feet of chain and a 7:1 scope made up with nylon I never noticed any substantial pull on a dug in danforth. I could see the chain taking up all the load, pretty neat.

Dave

[CharlieJ]

Seems to me for what you have outlined, your anchoring system should do fine.

But I'd like to interject one thought here. Based on some years of liveaboard and full time cruising experience, I hate, detest, abhor, will not allow on my boat- vinyl covered chain. You can't see if any corrosion is happening under the covering -same reason offshore racing rules won't allow vinyl covered lifelines by the way. It also will not move nor store as well - the coating keeps the links in more of a line.

I'd highly recommend you go with a boat length of good galvanized chain. If you are concerned with weight, use a feet more feet of G 4 chain

By the way, on our 25 footer we carry a 22 pound Bruce on the bow, with 75 feet of chain and 200 feet of nylon. We also carry 3 other different types of anchors- A Hi Tensile Danforth, a 15 pound folding Northill and a small Danforth as an anti swing device. Each has it's own rode with chain and nylon.

But then we tend to cruise into and anchor in places where there are few people around to bail us out should we have difficulties Plus we stay aboard for weeks sometimes. In fact, my wife recently did an 11 day cruise single hand. She can handle the regular anchor quite easily and she's 5'2"

Which is quite different than your planned anchoring.

[Rachel]

I'll second what Charlie said about the vinyl-coated chain. I've seen where this stuff had seriously deteriorated beneath the coating while the coating did not look that bad. I'd also vote for a bit more chain. Even though you're obviously not going to be in coral, or the like, I'd always rather have chain than rope dragging around on the bottom (doesn't take much to cut rope), and the catenary formed by the chain will really help the whole system to work better, in my opinion.

Don't forget to make sure that your shackle(s) aren't the weak link in the system. I like Crosby shackles - made in the USA and each one stamped with specs. They make a high-test shackle that makes it much easier to keep the shackle as strong as the whole system. Their "regular" shackles are also good - if they're strong enough without being to large for you - and have an orange pin. (The high-test ones are all silver/metal colored.) Hamilton Marine sells them, and you can look up specs at www.thecrosbygroup.com

[Bluenose]

First off, thanks everyone for chiming in. I want to change tacks just a bit and back up a little so everyone can see where I started and were I am trying to go.

My current primary bow anchor design is a 16 lb Bruce with 30 ft of chain and 150 ft of 3/8 inch nylon rode. Storm anchor is the Fortress I mentioned with a similar chain / nylon rode. Plus a small danforth as a kedge stored in the cockpit. The bow anchor will be permanently stored in the yet to be created anchor locker.

What I have been trying to find is a way to make my primary system more manageable under sail. So does anyone have experience dropping anchor and setting it entirely under sail singlehanded? Also sailing off the anchor again under sail, again singlehanded.

My experience has been that backing down under sail doesn't get it done in moderate to light wind. So I have been gaining experience sailing on a down wind reach under the main alone and dropping the anchor on the windward side. After letting out the desired amount of scope I slowly snug the rode around the deck cleat. This sets the anchor and spins the boat into the wind. This works pretty well during the set as I can release the anchor and then dump the chain over behind it. But hoisting is another story. I am finding it quite challenging to get the anchor up and stored quickly (and I am also worried about trashing the deck and topside). My current technique and skill, or lack of, would keep me from feeling comfortable performing this maneuver in a crowded anchorage.

The shorter vinyl coated chain idea seemed like a way to quickly get the anchor up and down while under sail. I am convinced that it not the answer so I am still looking.

Perhaps having a dedicated anchor locker and practice, practice, practice is the answer. But I welcome advice.

CharlieJ - what type of boat do you sail?

[CharlieJ]

Tehani is a Rhodes Meridian 25, built in Holland in 1961. She's hull number 10. 24 foot 9 inches on deck, 17'9" waterline, 3'3" draft, 7 foot beam, 5400 pounds displacement.

Here she is in our slip here in Port Lavaca, Texas



We've taken her from here on the Texas coast to Florida and return twice now and before too many more months, will be going on a prolonged cruise aboard, with thoughts of several months in the Bahamas and elsewhere over on the Atlantic coast. I have a Core Sound 20 almost ready for delivery, then a new interior to put into a 25 footer and I'm retiring.Grin.

Here's the boat at anchor in Mosquito Cove near Pensacola Florida-



Have you given thought to anchoring from the cockpit? We have a friend in Florida who has sailed his 18 footer for close to 30 years now. Offshore and inshore. He singlehands often and keeps his anchors in the cockpit lockers, setting them from there. He has a setup where he can attach a rode to the bow without leaving the cockpit. He also retrieves that way. His name is Charles Brennan and he has posted a thorough description of his technique over on the Trailer Sailor board. Go there and do a search under "anchoring" You'll find a TON of reading on the subject.

http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/tra ... /index.cgi

We anchor under sail about the way you discuss, coming in either downwind or on a reach if possible, but also close reaching when needed. But there are almost always two of us aboard. Although my wife anchored ever night but two during her single hand cruise and most of THOSE times were under sail- she HATES running the engine. So it CAN be done if the boat is set up correctly.

One thing though- I only let out about half my expected rode, then I start softly snubbing as the boat continues to move. I don't like applying the load all at once- snub lightly, let out more snubb lightly, let out more. When you are getting close to your expected scope, then snub harder and THEN cleat it and let the boat come onto the rode.

When you are retrieving the anchor, you just pile it on deck and sail out until you have clear water, Then loose sheets and let the boat drift while you take care of the anchor and rode. If you can't get to clear water, you clean the mess up later. And here on the coast we have some MESSY mud to deal with- I always "swish" the rode around as I"m hauling in, to clear as much muck as I can from it before it comes aboard. If the anchor is particularly messy, I'll cleat it with the anchor JUST under water and leave it drag while I sail to a clear place, THEN deal with it. You couldn't do that unless you had a an anchor pulpit and roller- the anchor would bash your hull. Fluke style anchors are particularly bad about that. I also have a bucket ( black rubber feed bucket) on a pennant I use to dip up water to wash down rode, anchor and decks after it's up and stowed.

One thing to watch for with that Fortress. If the boat is moving much over about two knots, the anchor can actually plane and never go to the bottom. That's the reason my friend in Florida got rid of his- he tried to anchor using one offshore to fish and could not get the anchor to sink in a current- they had to add much chain to it JUST to get it to the bottom. Not a problem if you are in a lake I suppose but something to be aware of.

[Duncan]

I often anchor from the cockpit. I cleat the bitter end of the nylon on the foredeck, and run it out through the fairlead, and back down the side. Once she's set, it's just a matter of releasing from the side, no scrambling around.

Snubbing her off as she drifts sideways seems to set the anchor better than a conventional set from the bow.

I also use a 7 kg Bruce, and (never say never) I haven't dragged yet. For tough conditions, I set it on two boat-lengths of 3/8 chain, otherwise one length of 5/16ths. (25', 5,000 lb boat).

Then I set a Danforth or whatever, just for insurance - I haul up on the rode until I'm almost over the bower, then let her drift sideways and back a little. This usually results in the second anchor being at a shallow downwind angle to the first, and keeps me from getting up in the night to check on anything.

Getting underway, as you say, can be a bit of a fire drill if there are other boats close by. Obviously a windlass and a hawse pipe would make that easier, but I am thinking a plastic bucket (to dump the chain in) might make things a bit quicker and cleaner, too.

[keelbolts]

Bluenose,
I have a similar setup on Favona. The large Fortress sits, unassembled, in the bilge. I have the wrenches to assemble it tied to it. I don't want to have to hunt for tools when I need Sittin' Bull. I would add, to your setup, a second rode in case you need them both or you can't get the first one up. Also, I rig a tripping line with a float whenever I drop the hook. Sometimes, it's practically the only way to get your hook up. It saved my anchor once when I had to cut and run. I was able to go back later to retrieve it with the tripping line. It's not hard to make a case for keeping your storm anchor on deck ready to go, but, with very few exceptions, if, while you're onboard, you let storm conditions sneak up on you, you're not much of a mariner. Having said that, my ready anchor is a 25 lb. CQR so I don't often need SB. When SB goes over, I tie the bitter end of its rode around the mast in case the sampson post is snatched out of the boat.

[Robert The Gray]

I can remember my firsts few attempts at single handed anchoring under sail. The first time I realized that it was not a good idea to be on the fore deck with the genoa raised and sheeted in. When the boat self tacks that big ol flat sail will pop right into the briny deep. You can end up having to strip to your skivvies in the cockpit, made the lunch taste better though. I think in this next one happened when I was trying the cross current cockpit launch double bahamanian flip technique that I had read about in the musty sailing how-to classic, Get The H*ll Out of My G*d D*mn Way. Well, I messed it up. I ended up on the stern holding my anchor rode facing backwards while my boat with the main sail up sailed the other way. I couldn't get the rode to the cleat, The rode was slipping out through my fingers, I couldn't walk forward to get the pointy end into the current, the current wouldn't let the boat turn, The blaring paternal soundtrack in my head was shouting IDIOT! IDIOT! IDIOT! The finish of it all is a blur but I now know to tie the rode to the bow first.

bluenose idea. Separate chain and anchor from rode.

store bruce and chain in strong duffel with the rubber anchoring gloves either in cockpit locker, down below, or lashed to foot of mast.
store rode on deck in a sweet little low profile deck box, or in fore peak with hause pipe access.

use high quality quick fastening secure shackle to connect.

r

[Rachel]

I can remember my firsts few attempts at single handed anchoring under sail.

No video of those, I suppose...

... in case the sampson post is snatched out of the boat.

*Shiver*

[Figment]

I was trying the cross current cockpit launch double bahamanian flip technique that I had read about in the musty sailing how-to classic, Get The H*ll Out of My G*d D*mn Way.

ah, so YOU're the one responsible for my single $3.72 royalty check.
Thanks, man!

[Robert The Gray]

f,

glad to help the great cause of curmudgenry!

r

[BALANCE]

Does anyone use a swivel between anchor and chain (using a windlass)?

Seems like it would be the weakest link.

[Rachel]

I think swivels are one of those "Five sailors; five opinons" things. I don't favor them, myself. Running an all-chain rode and a Simpson Lawrence 555 Sea Tiger (horizontal) manual windlass with a CQR anchor, we never found the need for one.

Rachel

[CharlieJ]

I'd like to add here- my nylon rode is spliced to the chain also. There is no swivel anywhere in my rodes. ONE shackle, between chain and anchor. Over the years I've been extremely happy with the back splice nylon rode to chain- never seen ANY chafe there since the back splice is so tight nothing moves.