Weatherhelm

[Triton106]

Hi All,

I sail Triton 106 (Blossom) on SF Bay and don't have a lot of experience dealing with the excess weatherhelm issue. And in the summer time we have winds in 20+ knots with gusts up to 30+/- in the afternoons the majority of the time. The only technique I know to deal with weatherhelm is to reef. So most of the time it seems that I am the only boat out there with a reef or I will have two reefs in when everyone else only has one or none. The worst part is that I still get overwhelmed when gusts pickup.

I have read the postings on this forum and Yahoo Triton Group. It seems that other techniques are: (1) move the mast forward a couple of inches (out of question for me due to the complexity of this modification), (2) bend the backstay, crank up the outhaul and downhaul, or (3) change the rudder configuration (not entierly out of question for me but I prefer not having to deal with that).

I have already a slight bend in the mast so I am not sure how much help bending the mast further will help with weatherhelm. My outhaul and downhaul are usually pretty tight. So I am considering adding a third reef to deal with the summer conditions here on SF Bay. Just wondering if that is a common approach or if anyone has tried it and find it effective in reducing weatherhelm. Also, I would appreciate any other ideas to deal with this issue.

Separately, when I am on broadreach the back of the boom rides up pretty high. So high as a matter of fact that when I tack or jibe it will hit the back stay or get stuck there. I tried tightening the boom vane but it is still too close to the backstay when tacking. So I plan to cut about six inches from the boom (there is room between the boom end fitting and the foot of the main). Has anyone out there done it? Does anyone foresee any issue with cutting the boom short?


Thanks and best regards,

[dasein668]

The Triton has a huge mainsail area. Reefing at 20 knots is not only helpful with the helm it's just plain prudent. You won't go any faster with a full main in 20 knots than you will with a reef. In fact you'll probably be slower, or at least be making a ton more leeway.

The fact is, these boats with a large mainsail and small foretriangle are going to have quite a bit of helm. It's just the way it is. I wouldn't worry about what others are doing, but rather only worry about what is necessary to make YOUR boat sail well. With a Triton that usually means a reef at much more than 15 knots true.

Frankly, if the wind is really 20 knots true with gusts over 30 knots, most any boat should be reefed. If they aren't they are almost certainly overpowered, imo.

Do you have a full roach on your sail? Is it starting to get baggy? Both of those things could contribute to helm as well.

[Ceasar Choppy]

I'm rusty on this but I think you want to decrease the rake or bend in your mast (move it forward). Adjusting your lowers, esp. if you have double lowers, you can tighten up the fwd. lowers. If your boom is hitting the backstay, it sounds like your mast is bent too far aft.

Do you have a traveller? You might try easing it to leeward to ease some of the weatherhelm temporarily.

Do you have end boom sheeting?

[Figment]

Backstay tension to induce mast bend should have no affect on rake, which is primarily set by the forestay. The bend will, however, depower the sail a bit and relieve a bit of weather helm.

106, don't feel bad about being reefed before everyone else. It's just the way of the Triton. If, when reefed down, you're underpowered and still have weather helm, then I'd say you have a problem to solve. But if you have plenty of power then just keep on reefing, flattening, and luffing the main until you have the helm balance under control.

Of a far far greater concern is this report that the boom contacts the backstay in a gybe!! good god man that sounds like three different disasters waiting to happen!

A previous owner shortened my boom by a foot. I don't think the boat misses it.

[Triton106]

Thanks Nathan, Ceasar, Figment,

I appreciate your feedback. It seems that the consensus is that (1) I should learn to live with the weatherhelm on Tritons and adapt to it, (2) reef early and reef often, (3) perhaps add a third reef.

I don't feel bad about being the only one reefed nor did I mean to imply that I was the only one reefed when it is blowing 20+ on the Bay. As matter of fact I actually saw someone else flying a storm trisail on Sunday. I was just frustrated that with two reefs and partially furled working jib I was still getting overwhelmed when the gusts pick up. I pull the tiller so hard that I am afraid it might break.

The sail is a little aged (ok maybe more than a little) so that shape is pretty baggy. I can either have a local sail loft recut it and add a third reef or buy a new one. Either option will cost more $$$. And I just spent $$$ in Svendsens on the mast step, spreader, radar, etc... It just never ends but I guess you all know that.

Any opinion on recut vs. buying new sail? When is it more economical to buy new sail? How about a storm trisail instead of a third reef? Thanks again for your experienced advice. BTW, I will perform the surgery on shortening the boom soon. It is a little scary when it hits the backstay.

Best regards,

[Robert The Gray]

hey ray,

on what point of sail does the weather helm show up, close hauled or on a reach. the reaching is tough with the small fore triangle of the triton.

on my triton I have to reef the sail very tight. do you have winching capabilities on the halyard, tack and clew? I raise my main and then tighten the tack and clew alternatingly getting the foot of the sail very flat. I was not able to do this until I lead my lines to a set of clutches and a winch. this allows me to get things really snugged down. If you could estimate the belly of the sail when you are feeling over whelmed, and if it is bigger that 2 feet then the sail is not tight enough.

Do you have a boom vang? It seems that if the boom is so high as to foul the back stay then it is way to high. A vang will pull the end of the boom much further down.

I know when reaching home to berkeley from the north tip of Angel Island it is a wrestling match. I have to keep right on top of the boat and have at times been forced way up and have had to blow the vang a bit to get her back down. I have used my second reef a couple of times when i really haven't been able to get up wind. that's on those days when I go play around Point Blunt on a wicked ebb. mucho moisture and heeling. I know it is blasting when I have to stand on the leeward coping as I cannot control the tiller sitting down.

get your halyard up to a point and get the tension on the sail with the tack and clew. I do not use a hook at the tack, I find I cannot get enough tension on the sail from the halyard alone. good luck.

I am on the "m" dock at berkeley where are you?

r.

[Triton106]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for sharing your experience. It's good to know I am not the only one getting slapped around on the Bay. My boom sit on a track (I guess that is pretty common for Tritons) so I have a 2:1 purchase on the downhaul. My main halyard leads back to the cabin top which I keep cranked up pretty tight. My outhaul is on the boom on a 3:1 purchase so it is pretty tight too. But I still have a significant belly. When you say 2 ft I am not sure if you are referring to the depth or the width? I think it is about 1 ft deep although I have not measured it.

I do have a boom vang but it is not effective for two reasons: (1) it's on a 3:1 purchase but not on a winch and the line is pretty thin so it is hard to hand crank it tight, (2) the vang attachment to the boom is on some kind of sliding (yes, it slides on the boom) bracket and when it slides forward the angle of the boom vang to the boom is not 45% anymore so I lose all of the leverage. I plan to install a haund so that it will not slide anymore.

As to which point of sail the weatherhelm is worst it is probably worst on a beat to beam reach when the whole rail just goes under water. It's a little better if the wind is aft of beam. But if I am not anticipating the gusts it can still whip the boat around and force me into the wind. Ususally at that point I just spill the main to regain control.

I actually moved from Berkeley Marine Center to Brisbane a couple of years ago and then recently moved to Grand Marina. Guess what I found in Grand Marina. I saw "Head Over Heals", "Juno" and one other Triton which I don't recognize. So there are four Tritons that I know in Grand Marina now. BTW, I love what you did with your Triton. You have got some serious skills. I only wish mine look half as good but I am working on it. I just FINALLY put in a teak and holly sole. The fiberglass sole has been bothering me for a long time. But it does nothing for my weatherhelm issue :-)

Best regards,

[A30_John]

I was just frustrated that with two reefs and partially furled working jib I was still getting overwhelmed when the gusts pick up. I pull the tiller so hard that I am afraid it might break.

Try dropping the main entirely and see how the boat handles under the headsail alone on various points of sail.

Any opinion on recut vs. buying new sail? When is it more economical to buy new sail? How about a storm trisail instead of a third reef?

I have the same dilemma... pay $$$ remove the huge roach on my four year old main, or get a new sail. I've opted for the new sail (which I can't currently afford). In the meantime I reef early and reef often. My new sail will have a third set of reef points.

[Figment]

Use the search function on this forum a bit. I have a vague recollection that somewhere along the line George Jones told us all about the various reefing and stormsail arrangements he tested on his Triton in different wind ranges.

Right off the bat, though, I'd double the purchase on that downhaul. This may help you depower the sail, or it may simply move the draft aft and exacerbate things, but it's the first move I'd make.

Other tritoners please chime in on this heavy weather helm stuff. I've NEVER experienced anything so heavy as what Ray is describing. I'm gaining new appreciation for my short-footed main.

[Case]

Triton 106, Fix the Vang before doing anything else! The vang set up you explain sounds awful. I bet that vang system is the main reason why you have the problems you have.

I sail a Sea Sprite 23. It is an Alberg design with a massive mainsail for its size. It can have massive weather helm while reaching while having no vang.

I added a vang. It reduced the weather helm big time and it made adjusting the mainsheet much easier (the SS23's mainsheet is upside down V shaped, over outboard motor... not that effective). With the vang, the boom barely rises.

Fixing the vang is not only for weather helm, it is also a safety feature. Hitting the backstay when the boom rises in a gust is unsafe, absolutely unsafe!

Before you buy any new blocks, fix the existing 3:1 vang so it doesn't slide around. I have a hard time imaging what your vang system looks like because the descriptions of it sound so strange... photos? Anyway, try to stop it from sliding with machine screws or maybe sail stops if its in a groove. Tighten it down before you go sailing and leave it alone and see if it helps with your helm issue. If you have to tighten down the 3:1 vang while sailing, crank down the mainsheet 1st then the vang 2nd in order to be able to do anything with the vang. 3:1 is too pathetic to be able to adjust while under load unless in very light winds. Do all of this before buying any new stuff (other than screws or whatever to stop the vang from sliding).

A working vang (which you don't have, from descriptions) won't solve all of your weather helm issues but it should make it more manageable.


- Case

[bcooke]

I think the early Tritons < ~100 had a lot more problems with weather helm than the later ones like mine (#680). My Triton actually doesn't have excessive weather helm. Then again with my old rigging I never put the rail in the water for long either. That will change soon.

I seem to remember a discussion here on the board concerning the placement of the mast. My mast sits over the main bulkhead- not directly over but relatively close- I think some of the early boats (just heresay) had the mast up to a foot aft of the bulkhead.

Where does the mast sit on #106? For what its worth moving the mast really wouldn't be a huge deal but that would be my lastchoicenothingelseseemstowork option.

I have a cheesy boom vang too. Or I did. I plan on getting one of those cheap-but-excellent Garhauer boom vangs before I launch next spring. But then with a powerful vang one might need a stronger boom than what originally came with the Triton. The vang is cheap but the boom is a bit more...

-Britton

[Ric in Richmond]

It isn't a wooden boom is it?

Be careful with a vang if it is as you can overload it.

You have a traveller?

If so use the traveller to depower in the puffs. Keep your leach tension with the mainsheet.

Works for me.

I'd also check mast rake.

Does the sail have a ton of draft? Maybe you can get it cut flatter?

Wish it blew like that here!!!!

[Triton106]

Hi Guys,

Thanks again for many many good suggestions. This is what I am going to do as my next project: (1) fix the boom vang attachment, (2) shorten the boom by about 6 inches, (3) add a third reef point and cut the sail a little flatter, (4) replace the vang sheet with larger diameter line that is more comfortable to handle.

I also noticed in the responses that Robert who also sails on the SF Bay have similar weatherhelm issues and those of you who sail out of NE or Florida don't have this issue. I am guessing that in addition to my lack of experience to handle a weather helm situation the local condition also play a big part. So, I am interested in feedback from those of you who sail out of other areas if your weathhelm is as bad as I describe when it blows 20+ to 30 knots. I think the way Robert describing it as a wrestling match is pretty accurate. I also know my dock neighbors that sail Catalinas also avoid the area on the Bay that I am decribing when it is blowing.

To answer the questions that came up Blossom's mast is placed directly over the main bulkhead and is pretty straight (no rake forward or backward). It will be hard to move since it will entail moving the mast beam support etc... It's boom is aluminum and not wooden. It does have a traveler but the slidecar is not attached to any traveler sheets. It needs to be manually moved. Once the boat is heeled over in the situation I describe it is pretty dangerous to move the slidecar to leeward since there is tramendous force on the slidecar stop.

Once again thank you all for your feedback. I will update you on the results of my boom and vang modification.

[bcooke]

Sounds good.

While one could find 20 kts + on the East coast without searching too hard you are right in that the prevailing winds are generally below that in the summer. We don't have day after day of strong winds so we only give up the occasional sail by avoiding the heavier stuff.

One thing I forgot to ask is how large is your jib? If you are sporting a 170% as was popular back in the old days, then that could be adding to your weather helm. I think the CP is pretty far aft on those sails but I could be wrong there. Most Triton people around me go for a 130-140% jib for all around sailing. In 20+ kt winds I would use a 100% or less.

And when I say it is easy to move the mast I am definitely NOT including repositioning the mast beam. I was just thinking a couple of inches either way or perhaps moving the mast closer to the support beam if if was way out. You are right; moving the mast beam would be a whole different undertaking and not one I would recomend either.

-Britton

[Triton106]

Hi Britton,

I have a working job (about 100-110) on the furler all year round due to the conditions on the bay. In a blow I even reef that to 80-90% with two reefs in the main.

I used to sail on my roommate's Catalina 38 in Southern California over 10 years ago. I don't remember ever having run into heavy weather like here on SF Bay. It seems that every time I go out in the summer it gets up to 20+ in the afternoon in the exposed part of the Bay which is generally north of the Bay Bridge and south of the Marin headlands. When I sailed out of Brisbane before there are also slots where it blows up to 20+ between Hunter's Point and the city. If I stay in the lee of the city it is not as bad and weatherhelm is not noticible.

Thanks again for sharing your experience and ideas.

Best regards,

[Triton106]

Hi All,

Just a follow up to more accurately describe the boom vang attachment on Blossom. I read Spur's book again and it turned out that the attachment is called "clip" and is used by booms that are on roller reefing. Spur explains in the book that the clips can be quickly detached from the boom before reefing. The guys at Svendsens made that comment too when they worked on my mast but I did not pay attention to it. It seems that a PO converted it from roller reefing to jiffy reefing at some point but kept the clip attachment. I wish I had a digital camera that I can take a picture to show what it looks like. I am interested to learn if anyone else out there has that gizmo.

Best regards,

[The Good Goose]

My triton seemed to have the helm issues you have when I first got her. I raked the mast forward and that helped alot. I also moved the mast an inch or two forward and that helped as well. Having a really tight forestay also helped alot. I have a 7/8s rig and had to prebend with the jumpers to get this but it was worth it. I usually sail in winds over 18 with the main luffing slightly on the forward third. Not slatting but just a little backwinded.
I think the advent of roller furling on the jibs has dramatically decreased reefing of mains on boats. The newer boats have small mains and can reef the jib and still handle pretty strong wind. If I am cruising and it is blowing above 20 I usually have both reefs in. I think if I was in wind over 30 I would like a third reef. I only sail in wind that high by accident so I don't encounter it often. I have raced with full main and 170 in 25 knots and the helm wasn't too bad but we had alot of weight on the rail or I think it would have been.

I think most new owners of tritons who have sailed on other boats are suprised by the tritons helm. I know I was.I really didn't like it for the first few weeks I owned the boat. I learned to keep the main flat let it luff a little and now it is not an issue at all for me. I would say I never pull on the tiller with a force where I feel I might break it and I often did those first few weeks. Raking the mast forward was huge. Try it and I think you will notice a big difference. Next time the mast is down move the step an inch forward and I think that will help as well.


The winds are lighter on the east coast so we don't do as much sailing above 20 but I think most every east coaster I have talked to had some helm issues.

Brock Richardson

[Triton106]

Thanks Brock. You and others convinced me that I should try raking the mast forward a little. Unfortunately, I just had my mast serviced (to put on the Harken furler and a new pair of spreader). You mentioned that in order to rake the mast forward you have to prebend the jumper. Why is that?

[Tim]

The weather helm in Tritons is an unfortunate design element. There are ways, all described nicely in the above posts, to minimize and reduce it, but the Triton will never be on the list of the "Best-Balanced Sailing Boats", unfortunately. One learns to live with it, but it's certainly not my favorite feature of the boat.

One thing about the Triton rig is that the boat was designed for use with very large overlapping headsails: 170%. The large mainsail balances much more effectively with a large headsail like this.

Typically, no one uses sails this large anymore, and the smaller headsails tend to exacerbate the already-existing weather helm issues on Tritons. Reefing the main will better balance with a smaller headsail.

A single reef is essential once the wind starts getting up over 15 knots or so. This will greatly help balance your boat and reduce the helm. Ensuring that the mast is at least perpendicular to the waterline, or even raked forward a bit, will help reduce the natural tendency towards weather helm, but won't eliminate it either. Don't bother moving your mast step: it won't make enough of a difference to make it worthwhile.

I was surprised to find how much aft rake my mast had as originally set up. A few years ago, I moved the masthead forward (by reducing aft rake) quite substantially and this did have a positive effect on the weather helm. Because of a rigging mistake of mine this past spring, the mast ended up raked a bit forward of perpendicular, and I have not noticed any change in the amount of weather helm as a result, so there's only so much this change will do. But if you find your mast is raked aft, getting it to a perpendicular state may make a noticeable difference.

Here's what I did. (Link)

[The Good Goose]

With a 7/8s rig to get a tight headstay without bending the mast aft you need to put a prebend in the mast with the jumpers. This allows for a tighter headstay while keeping the mast straight. To rake the mast forward you don't need to do this. It is only to increase the tension of the headstay. To Rake the mast forward let off three or four turns on the backstay turnbuckle then tighten the forestay turnbuckle three or four turns and repeat until when you step back from the boat the mast is just slightly forward of perpindicular.

Hopes this helps
Brock

[Triton106]

Hi Tim, Brock,

Thanks for the tips. Brock, as soon as I submitted my last posting the answer became clear to me. I was tired and did not think through before hitting the submit button.

Tim, I thought I had read your website thoroughly but obviously I missed the one page you pointed out. Thanks for confirming the benefit of raking the mast forward and the step by step instruction on how to do it with a furler. I have a Harken which has an integrated turnbuckle but I am sure the basis steps are the same.

Best regards,

[The Good Goose]

Ray
I went out for a sail tonight after work and had enough wind to test the tritons weather helm. It was fifteen gusting to twenty on the way out. I was beating into the wind with full main and 110 jib. The boat handled it well. Had to dump the main a couple of times in the puffs. I noticed that if I kept the tiller steady in the puffs that even though it seemed she would go up into the wind she stayed on course as soon as the heeling changed to increased forward speed. small tiller adjustments seemed to do the trick. main way down on the traveler eased until it is just getting backwinded.

On the way in the wind freshened I was running and it got kinda hairy Ii'd say the gusts were near 25. I definately needed a reef. Once the boat hits hull speed downwind it gets pretty squirrly. It was really puffy and the boat really tried to round up. I was too scared to jibe so I would come about when I needed to. It was very difficult to do this single handed as the tiller was difficult to hold in position . If I hadn't been headed in I would of absolutely put in a reef maybe two. I would say the triton becomes unmanageable downwind in gusty conditions over 20 without a reef. I wouldn't say I was worried about breaking the tiller but I was pulling pretty hard. I think if I'd been beating the boat would of still been manageable by letting the main luff a little. I think it would have been marginal on a reach. Bottom line if it is windy put in a reef or two or three. I have been out in stronger winds then this when reefed and found the helm fairly neutral.

I had forgotten how scary the triton can be downwind when it pipes up. Once that main is all the way out there is not alot to do to controll weather helm but reef. the problem is increased when single handing as any move away from the tiller results in an immediate rounding up. It seems I usually find myself in this situation close to home and by myself. If I am on a long trip I watch the wind and when it pipes up I reef early. If i'm with another person I'll reef even if close to home. Alone I'd rather fight it out in the cockpit then up at the mast. It's hard to remember that its not the end of the world if the boat rounds up although it does get to a point where you wonder if youll ever get it back downwind again.

Just remembered none of my reef lines are run. That would of been a pleasant surprise if I had decided to reef. Guess I know what i'll do before I go sailing next time I'm at the boat.


Brock

[jollyboat]

previous post deleted

[jhenson]

I'm kinda curious what effect on weather helm, if any, moving the forestay forward a foot or so onto a sprit like was done on Dorothy G. Are there other modern sloops that have a fractional rig and sprit combination, or is this only done with masthead rigs?

Also, how effective have rudder modifications like the one on the Daysailor been on reducing weather helm?

Joe

[Triton106]

Hi Brock,

Your decriptions of how the Triton handles in different headings and wind conditions are very consistent with my experience. Having no reefing in winds gusting to 25 will definitely make me feel very uncomfortable. As you said when one is single handing and heading home sometimes I am too lazy or scared to attempt putting in reef. The only thing is that here on SF Bay it's not uncommon for winds to gust up to 30+ during summer months in certain areas where it is exposed. In that case even with two reefs tucked in I still have to "wrestle" the tiller to prevent it from rounding up. I think the reason I feel as if the tiller is going to break maybe due to the fact that it is not laminated. It's carved out of a single piece of solid wood (I think teak). I also find that when the wind is on the quarter and heeling is not as bad the weather helm is more managable. I am definitely going to add a third reef. I will report back to the group how it handles after it is done.

Best regards,