Re-powering with an outboard

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Der Alte
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Re-powering with an outboard

Post by Der Alte »

OK, thanks again for all the advice on re-commissioning my Yanmar 3QM30 on the hard. The engine is now (apparently) running, thanks to the liberal application of cash.... I ended up grounded by flu, and since I'm staying in a temporary furnished apartment while I wait to get her launched (I'll be living aboard), it made sense to get the yard to do it.

Oh, and of course I hate engines, working on engines, big rusting engines, engines that barely fit in my boat, engines that are so d**** huge that you can barely work around them, engines that keep causing trouble, etc....

So, now I'm seriously tempted to get a long-shaft high-torque outboard on a high-lift bracket on the stern. Am I crazy?

Complications:
  • * The boat (Westsail 32) weighs in at about 22,000 lb
    * She has a canoe stern
    * and an outboard rudder
    * and a Cape Horn windvane; so I'm looking at a fairly off-centre installation (but this could counter the prop-walk...?)
    * I have about a 7-mile motor to get to the sailing, but at least the water on the estuary is about dead flat, even in a gale
On the plus side, I'd be able to reclaim about 1/4 of my interior space, and maybe even fit a cockpit lazarette!!!!! Wow! I've heard about boats that have those, and they seem so handy... ;-)

Cheers!
Ian Smith
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Post by Mark.Wilme »

Could you make one of those "wells" so it sticks down through the bottom of your hull. I'll see if I can find a pic of what I mean on the web.

EDIT : Of course I could, first result on Google, this is what I meant

http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/outboard.htm

(Makes winterizing and servicing your auxilliary a lot easier)


pics below :


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Mark.
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Post by Mark.Wilme »

Oh c'mon, I just re-read the article and at the very botom of the page, what do I find ?
Atom Voyages ? 2003 by James Baldwin. All Rights Reserved.
Website Design ? 2003 by Lackey Sailing

this guy gets everywhere !!! (grin)
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Der Alte
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No well for me...

Post by Der Alte »

Yeah, I read Baldwin's article a while ago. But that wouldn't work for me... a full keel and keel-hung outboard rudder means there's nowhere for the outboard to go down through the hull.

Plus one benefit I'm looking for is to stop dragging a huge wheel through the water when I'm sailing.... ie. take out the prop, glass up the aperture (the huge hole between the keel and the rudder) and lose a whole pile of drag (hopefully).

Cheers,
Ian Smith
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Post by Tim »

Now, don't take this wrong, but I really don't think you'd ever see any noticeable or measurable reduction in drag from removing the prop from a Westsail 32. Westsail 32s are all about drag and wetted surface--and I say this without any intention of bad-mouthing the boat. It's just more of a fact. There's so much inherent drag, and the boat will never be a stripped-down lean machine, that the drag induced from the current setup can be considered virtually nil. It takes a lot to affect the performance, positively or negatively, of a boat with the D/L ratio of a Westsail 32.

I'm sure exhaustive calculations could prove me wrong in every instance, but I generally consider the amount of drag produced from fixed, three blade, aperture-mounted props on full keel (or modified full keel) boats to be so minimal as to be ignored. There are so many other inefficiencies in the underwater designs of these sorts of boats that the extra drag from an aperture or propeller, to the extent it exists, has no practical effect on the boat, and certainly no more or less harmful to performance than the inevitable less-than-perfect sail trim, or mast tuning, or algae on the bottom, or 12 jerry cans of fuel, or wheels of Brie and fine wine in the bilge, or what have you.

In a perfect, theoretical, scientific setup, I am sure one could prove that, all things being equal, a full keel boat with no prop or aperture would be marginally faster than an identical, traditionally-propped setup. But in the real world, these differences, to the extent they exist, just don't play a big roll in the actual sailability of the boat. (Please note that I'm not talking about fin keel boats with exposed shafts here...I believe prop drag to be a much more important factor in those designs.)

Outboards work to power a lot of boats, but they just aren't for every situation. In theory, you can push any boat with an outboard, but in practice outboards deliver power very differently from something like a diesel engine, with its high torque and ability to deliver that torque cleanly and efficiently to a large propeller mounted well beneath the surface (and therefore in more "solid" water). One important factor in comparing the power from a diesel with that from an outboard is to look at the power and torque produced at lower RPMS. Outboards tend to produce their power only at very high engine and prop speeds, compared to diesels which excel at producing high amounts of power in the lower ranges. This is why diesels are so well suited to heavy boats.

From a purely practical standpoint, the only way I could conceive of an outboard even physically fitting--and therefore being able to operate--on your Westsail, with the stern configuration and the gear you have, would be some sort of side mount, perhaps along the lines of the one used on the Alberg 30 Jean de Sud, owned, of course, by the inventor of your Cape Horn self-steerer.

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You could come up with calculations as to how much power your 22,000 lb. Westsail truly needs in order to achieve hull speed under power. I certainly wouldn't go any smaller than this minimum, since calculated and theoretical minimums don't take into account propeller slip, inefficiencies at transferring the calculated power to the propeller itself, and other factors; therefore, you need a margin of additional power over and above that minimum, in any real-world situation. I don't think the outboard would be very efficient at powering your boat, particularly set off to the side in this sort of manner, so you'd have to have something a bit larger to account for this loss in efficiency.

In my opinion, you'd have to own stock in an outboard company to want one badly enough in this situation to make these efforts worthwhile. The money would be far better spent either overhauling your diesel or replacing it. Diesels are wonderful things, and take so little to keep happy. Instead of hating the engine, learn to love it. A loved engine is a well cared-for (rather than hidden and neglected) engine; a well cared-for engine is a happy engine; a happy engine leads directly to a happy boat.

The high topsides of the Westsail would make operating the engine challenging in any mounting location, but all the more so on some sort of side bracket. You'd almost certainly need remote controls, which leads to wires and cables hanging off the boat as well, increasing clutter and complexity.

What you're suggesting isn't impossible by any means. I don't think it's a good idea, nor would it be very fulfilling in the end, but don't let that stop you! Outboards have their place, and can be used as emergency or temporary means in just about any situation, but as a permanent or long-term "solution", they fall short for many reasons, particularly when significant engineering might be required to even allow one to hang off the boat somewhere.
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Der Alte
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Hmmmm....

Post by Der Alte »

Tim wrote:Now, don't take this wrong, but I really don't think you'd ever see any noticeable or measurable reduction in drag from removing the prop from a Westsail 32.
Hmmm, interested to hear you say that. I have no idea, of course, but I'd assumed that the drag from my existing monster prop would be significant... it's a 17" 3-blader, with huge fat blades. Of course, as you say, a Westsail is pretty draggy in any case, but at least most of the wetted surface isn't opposing the water flow like the prop is.
... the extra drag from an aperture or propeller, to the extent it exists, has no practical effect on the boat, and certainly no more or less harmful to performance than the inevitable less-than-perfect sail trim, or mast tuning, or algae on the bottom, or 12 jerry cans of fuel, or wheels of Brie and fine wine in the bilge, or what have you.
Wheels of Brie... mmmMMMmmm!
... outboards deliver power very differently from something like a diesel engine, with its high torque and ability to deliver that torque cleanly and efficiently to a large propeller mounted well beneath the surface (and therefore in more "solid" water).
Right, I'd certainly be losing the ability to use the engine in rougher conditions... in the SF Bay, it would be about getting in and out of the estuary at most.
Outboards tend to produce their power only at very high engine and prop speeds,
But wouldn't a high-torque O/B address this -- at least to a large extent?
From a purely practical standpoint, the only way I could conceive of an outboard even physically fitting--and therefore being able to operate--on your Westsail, with the stern configuration and the gear you have, would be some sort of side mount, ...
Jean-du-Sud's is interesting... but I was thinking a more conventional bracket, off-centre and adapted to the "slant" of the hull would work...? Something with a good high lift, so the motor could be pulled well up when not in use, probably with assistance from a hoist -- which could then be used to get the motor up on the rail, and then maybe even down into a lazarette.
You could come up with calculations as to how much power your 22,000 lb. Westsail truly needs in order to achieve hull speed under power.
Yikes, I certainly wouldn't be aiming for hull speed! 5 knots would keep me very happy. I was pretty surprised that Gelinas was claiming 6 knots on an Alberg 30 (albeit a much smaller boat than mine) with just a 9.9 HP.
The money would be far better spent either overhauling your diesel or replacing it.
Replacing might be an option, if it was with something smoother and physically smaller -- the 3QM30 is really rough (unlike the 3GM30, say). Hell, I might even be tempted to go petrol- or diesel-electric.
The high topsides of the Westsail would make operating the engine challenging in any mounting location,
Yeah, that's definitely an issue.

Anyhow, thanks for the response, definitely food for thought. But one more piece of data -- while head-down in the bilge today (working around the engine is *such* a pain), I noticed some serious rusting around the bottom and back of the fuel tank. Now, getting that tank out is legendarily difficult... unless, of course, the engine goes first!

Cheers,
Ian Smith
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Post by Figment »

Outboard rudder.... Would it be TOTALLY insane to just whack an outboard motor onto the rudder? Yeah, probably.
I'd be inclined to mate a pair of electric motors, so that the only outward appearance (above the waterline) would be the cable. The boat could almost certainly swallow adequate battery capacity in the bilges.

I wouldn't approach it from a drag-reduction standpoint, though.

WS32 has weight and drag in spades, but that doesn't mean they can't get up and GO in the right conditions. I got positively ROLLED by one at the end of last summer on a broad reach. I held him off for as long as I could, but that wasn't very long at all, in the end he just trucked right over the top of me and it was all I could do to tuck into his wake and ride his coattails for a while.
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Post by Duncan »

You might want to take a look at this one at Torresen Marine
Saab 6 hp with feathering prop.

I think it might suit you to a "tee" - hand crank, smaller, bulletproof reputation, etc.. As far as drag goes, I would think that the more drag you have, the less "extra drag" you want, so the variable pitch prop would be a a very nice bonus.
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Post by Tim »

There is always a variety of schools of thought on the engine selection process. All I can do is offer what I think is a pragmatic view of the situation at hand. I'm not much into theory or math; it's all about the practical and logical aspects for me.

I sincerely doubt you'd end up being happy with outboard power on your Westsail, for a variety of practical reasons (such as convenience of use and the challenge of bracketing it successfully), plus the in ability of any outboard to deliver the character of power that a small diesel engine can. There's more to it than printed numbers. Diesels simply produce a character of power that is ideally suited to heavy loads. I'm not an engineer, and can't delve into why or how this is; I just know that it is. That's enough for me.

If you want to go electric, then that's a whole separate topic with its own pros and cons, and I certainly don't know much about electric propulsion systems for sailboats. If you have the space to spare and the funds to install one of the systems on the market today, and these systems suit your needs for the boat, then it could be an interesting option for you.

Today's diesel engines (that is, engines designed and built in the 1990s or beyond) are just in an entirely different class than the engines that preceeded them. They are smoother, more efficient, and quieter. If what you hate is the rustiness and roughness of your old QM, you'd almost certainly be far happier with the improved qualities of a current model.

I'm not advocating "extra" drag, but instead am attempting to keep the idea of potential "drag reduction" to be had on a boat like a Westsail 32 in the proper, practical, and realistic perspective. Simply put, I just don't think you'd never notice a difference in actual sailing abilities with or without the aperture and prop, regardless of the nearly certain fact that a theoretical calculation would point to, logically enough, a small drag reduction if the prop were removed and the aperture filled.

Likewise, while weight savings is always good, the potential weight savings from going to an outboard is such a small percentage of your displacement as to be negligible. One advantage of a boat like yours, in fact, is her ability to handle the weight of cruising equipment and stores with such aplomb. Lighter-displacement boats can suffer terribly, performance-wise, when loaded to the gills.

A 6 HP motor is definitely insufficient for a 22,000 lb. Westsail. Oh, it would push it...slowly, and eventually. Forget about maneuvering. And a folding prop doesn't have the bite required for a boat of the weight and shape of the Westsail. Your boat needs low-end torque, and a propeller design (and location) that is optimized to transfer this torque efficiently to the water. For comparison's sake, an 8400# Triton requires about 8 or 9 HP to achieve 5 knots under power in smooth water (if I remember correctly).

My most general opinion on engines is that if one is to have one at all, it should be the best it can be: well suited to the boat, easy to use, reliable, and powerful enough for whatever situations might reasonably be encountered.
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Re: Hmmmm....

Post by Robert The Gray »

Der Alte wrote:Right, I'd certainly be losing the ability to use the engine in rougher conditions... in the SF Bay, it would be about getting in and out of the estuary at most.
With the tidal currents getting up to 5 knts plus at times, the presence of islands and headlands to create wind shadows, the amount of very big ships that pass through the central bay, and the heavyness of your boat make it seem that being without power or under powered would increase the stress of sailing. To get from the Fortman Marina in the Alameda esturary to good clear wind in the summer would take me an hour motoring at 5 knots, if I had a tide against me it would take longer. Conditions on the bay, while never like the ocean, can often still be challenging. We have several places where wind and tide can oppose each other within a narrow channel that must be used for commercial shipping. I have had greenish brown water over the bow in steep steep chop. In some conditions there is no way an outboard will stay in the water much less give you enough power to be manouverable. One of the joys of a larger boat is taking non sailors out for the day to see the sites and enjoy the water, if underpowered or engineless the captain has very few possibilities. Great destinations on the bay are the city front and angel island. Both these locations can have strong currents across the entrances. I have had to motor at 5 knots to make 1 knot headway against a 4 knot current to get around a windless point while dodging the ferry traffic, I would never do that with a 5 ton boat being pushed by a motor on a stick.

In certain places an engine is only for when the wind dies, unless you are ready for the inevitable delays and dangers that come with engineless sailing in a tidal area, then keep your motor. In my first boat it took me 6 hrs. to get home instead of 1 because I could not get through a wind shadow against a contrary tide. This wind shadow happens to fall across the refinery docks and I had no capacity to get out of the way. It makes a good story now, but at the time I was cold, hungry, and I do not like to upset the working people on the bay.

If one gets a big wagon one must also get two horses, or stay in the valley.

this is just my two cents about sailing the bay with an underpowered big boat.


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Post by s/v Groovy »

I'll second the opinions above,keep the diesel and try to love it. When deciding to buy our boat, having been recently re-powered with a Yanmar 2GM20 with 150 hours, was a big selling point in my opinion.

How about a third option, an Electric Inboard. It would use the same location / shaft as the diesel, much smaller, some say less complicated, and maybe just as good for short trips. Add a solar panel to keep the battery bank topped off, and while you are sailing some systems will actually use the turning shaft to generate power to re-change the batteries. I don't know if this technology is there yet, but it is an Idea I would contemplate if I didn't have a basically brand new diesel already.
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Post by Chris Campbell »

While I agree that a 6hp outboard is unlikely to do the job satisfactorily, it might do it acceptably, depending on how it's used. I recently read "Camera on the Banks", and noted with great surprise that a 102 ft. fishing schooner was able to make 3 knots under tow from a dinghy powered by a 3 hp outboard! I'm sure that was a very torquey motor (early outboards were very high displacement for their given power) with a reduction geared prop, but still, pretty remarkable. There are diesel outboards around, and while I couldn't put my hands on one quickly, I'm sure there are outboards with reduction gears swinging large props available as well (there are plenty of barges that use outboard power, workboats, etc. - there's a demand...).

The Seagull outboard would probably drive your boat in flat water with light air - only trouble there is they don't make them anymore, and they're environmental disasters (10-to-1 fuel to oil mixture!). But the notion of a large, slow turning prop on an outboard is what's desired.

I'd vote for diesel/electric if money's no object, though - I think large battery banks with three modes of charging (wind/solar/diesel) for power is the best of all worlds. That said, I'm waiting for my engine to die and storage technology to improve before I go that route...
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Post by Duncan »

Tim wrote:A 6 HP motor is definitely insufficient for a 22,000 lb. Westsail.

I agree, whoops! I realized afterwards that the engine I had pointed out was rated at 6 hp., whereas the Saabs I had been thinking of usually seem to be rated more like 8-10 hp (continuous). My point of comparison is roughly one continuous shaft hp per ton, e.g. Tom Colvin's Kung Fu-Tse, 25 tons with a 22 hp Saab diesel. On a 41' waterline, this gave roughly 5-6 knots, so it's certainly not hull speed.

I am aware that the "mainstream wisdom" calls for considerably more power. I think there can be some good reasons for this, e.g. when the engine is being used to satisfy high electrical demands. Another one might be when people require that they can travel at hull speed against bad weather/adverse tides. On the other hand, it can also push people into more complex and expensive engines that run underloaded most of the time.

Nevertheless, I don't think there's any one right answer, or that I know it. There are always trade-offs and preferences: mine just run to low revving, simple engines that run at their best speed most of the time.
Tim wrote: And a folding prop doesn't have the bite required for a boat of the weight and shape of the Westsail. Your boat needs low-end torque, and a propeller design (and location) that is optimized to transfer this torque efficiently to the water.
The prop mentioned is a variable-pitch one, not a folding prop. One of the disadvantages of fixed-pitch props is that they are only right at one rpm, whereas variable pitch can be tuned to conditions and speeds. Given the choice, I'd love to have a variable pitch prop, but they usually cost a fortune.

Anyway, I don't claim any expertise. I just have a set of personal preferences that say that Saab with the variable-pitch prop is a real gem! It would probably be much better in a boat weighing less than, say, 12,000 lbs., though. My apologies for mistaking its 6 hp for the usual 8-10.
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Post by Tim »

Duncan wrote:
Tim wrote: And a folding prop doesn't have the bite required for a boat of the weight and shape of the Westsail. Your boat needs low-end torque, and a propeller design (and location) that is optimized to transfer this torque efficiently to the water.
The prop mentioned is a variable-pitch one, not a folding prop. One of the disadvantages of fixed-pitch props is that they are only right at one rpm, whereas variable pitch can be tuned to conditions and speeds. Given the choice, I'd love to have a variable pitch prop, but they usually cost a fortune.
My mistake. I misread what you wrote and somehow turned that into "folding". Sorry about that. I agree that variable pitch propellers are often the ideal.

Actually, that calls to mind a realistic alternative for boats with propellers in apertures that might be looking to minimize drag and improve powering efficiency: the feathering prop. Some are even variable pitch, but generally they're simply set on gears that allow you to pivot the blades so that they present their narrow sides to the water flow when not in use.

Varioprop USA is one company making these feathering props. They also make true variable pitch propellers, if that's something you're interested in.

This company has some innovations that help specific and challenging situations, particularly this unique 4-blade feathering prop that is specificially designed for installations where there might be limitations on the room into which a prop can fit, such as in many apertures. I am seriously considering one of these when the time comes for my Allied Seabreeze, though that rebuild is still a little ways off. In fact, the 4-blade version of this feathering propeller was originally designed specifically for the Seabreeze, which has a very small aperture that cannot be easily enlarged; the boat also has a need for larger-diameter propellers when they are repowered with diesels, however.

Link: Varioprop USA
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Post by Summersdawn »

Resale.

The outboard may work for you, but I suspect you would have trouble convincing others it was right for them. It may take a long time to sell your boat when the time comes, as most people would think it was greatly underpowered, and might find the aesthetics of an outboard not to there taste.
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Post by grampianman »

Just to add to this exchange;
I had a 4hp long-shaft Johnson on my 23 footer and in ideal conditions can get the boat to 5.5 knots (GPS proved) at full throttle. This I found to be inadequate when I was bucking wind and current on the Caloosahatchee river here in SW Florida. I have since re-powered with a 9.9 hp extra long shaft and feel this will give me power in those kinds of conditions.

I never felt comfortable under way in the conditions described above, using the 4hp, because I knew I had no extra rpm's to call upon to get me out of any situations which could arise. When you are the slow boat and all the stink-potters are roaring past you leaving huge, heaving wakes as they pass, it doesn't take much to be pushed into the shallows, etc.

I'm not posing as an expert; many good things have been written so far in this thread. My take, if you are concerned about the drag and can't afford the expense of the folding/feathering prop is to go to a two-bladed prop. You could then lock the shaft in position with the prop held vertically behind the deadwood of the keel and therefore not in the waterflow.

Or just keep the three-bladed prop and go sailing.

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Two ways to go... Yamaha or feathering prop

Post by Mike E »

Since the main problem seems to be drag the easiest way is to switch to a feathering prop which is what I did on my Westerly 31. The engine is a V-P MD2030 rated at 29hp. Not all the available choices would fit the boat configuration. A little over a year ago these were my three choices and th prices. You will want to compare them to my outboard choice and it's price.

Vari-Prop out of Annapolis at $2900
Max Prop out of Washington State $2400
Kiwi Prop out of New Zealand $1250

All three blade feathering systems and all in US dollars

I chose the KiwiProp for a couple of reasons, price being part of it. Also it uses three carbon fiber free floating blades.

On the previous boat a Westerly 26 I ended up with probably the only hull that never had an inboard. Needing a new OB I opted finally for the Yamaha T9.9 that was in 2002 and it ran me $2200 with the six foot tiller extension and the 25" shaft. Fixed in the straight ahead position the tiller extension was mounted on the sailboats tiller making throttle and shift easy to use. The reduction gear in the T series gave me a better power curve than say the Honda 27" shaft and that power curve gave me better fuel consumption than the Honda. I had no need to go faster than the hull speed so the Honda would have wasted a lot more fuel. The heavy weight mount made for 100 plus pound outboards finished off the installation.

In retrospect I would stick with Yamaha four strokes BUT much prefer the diesel inboard. In going down the Pacific NW coast even the 25" shaft depth seemed insufficient at times but when the winds were zero I had little choice. It all worked fine though. For the Yamaha use the standard prop it's pitched just right. Also I think in 8 and 15 HP but the 9.9 is really closer to 12HP. Cost more to begin with but saves a lot of money in the long run.

There's some choices for you...oh and if you choose the feathering prop ensure it's matched to your engine and transmission. Buying new will get that for you, buying used, if you can find any its by guess and by golly.

Do NOT get a folding prop. They are really bad in reverse and not that great going forward.

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