Replacing the S/S standing rigging with Galvanised ?

krissteyn · Post by **krissteyn** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:35 am

Was wondering if the knowledgeable forum-ites here would shoot my idea down with a waterspout ?

After reading Moitessiers books about self sufficiency, I am thinking of replacing my 35' ketch's original '74 S/S rigging & swaged fittings with a combination of galvanised wire , thimbles and double clamps , new turnbuckles and short lengths of heavy S/S chain (for fine adjustment) between chainplates and turnbuckle - with suitable "attachments" to piece it all together.

This I can do myself , 1 at a time. I was going to get a new S/S forstay as well - possible setting up a twin forstay rig as I dont use roller furling.
This being the only thing the rigging shop would do.

I am at Indiantown FL - can anybody suggest a suitable place to order/supply all my requirements ?

will be splashing early March and am due in Nassau end March...

Kris

The existing rigging/turnbuckles are so old, I would not be keen to salvedge much - just keep a few as spares.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:01 am

I think Moitessier's info is pretty dated.

Swageless fittings are easy and very strong, (and re-usable though keeping spares is pretty easy too). Thimbles and clamps are far less strong and more prone to failure.

Stainless wire is stronger and much less prone to corrosion. If you were in a pinch in some backwoods area you could use your swageless fittings with whatever was around but here why not go with the best? It only takes one rigging failure to ruin your whole day.

maybe you can explain how the chain is used for fine adjustment. I don't understand that bit. Turnbuckles can provide very fine adjustment on their own.

Brian Toss' s Rigger's Apprentice is an excellent reference book and probably deserves space on every cruising boat.

-Britton

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:53 am

yeah, that is not recomended. the rig on any boat is something to pay considerable attention to. as it was mentioned, if in a jam rigging something up with what is on hand would be admirable, however, seeking out inferior equipment as permenent replacement is not recomended. if this about either about money matters or wanting to try your hand at rigging there are many very good systems on the market that can be used. as for the money, though materials are costly, they are only a fraction of labor costs so your savings will ultimately be found in your labor.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:11 am

Thimbles and clamps? You mean wrap the wire around a thimble and secure it with those bolt-on U-clamps? Yeesh.

As others have said, stuff like this is great in a pinch, but to install something like this in a modern world as a permanent setup is just not a great idea.

A lot of traditional boats use 7x7 galvy wire that is permanently spliced to the thimbles. This is acceptable, as a proper wire eye splice is as strong as the wire itself. But u-bolts and things like hand-swage (nicropress) fittings don't belong in the repertoire of permanent rigging. This wire will also stretch more significantely than stainless, and might make it challenging or impossible to properly tune and set up a modern aluminum spar.

I'd go with 1x19 304 SS wire (the nearly unversal rigging wire) and swageless (Norseman, Sta-Lok, Suncor) terminal ends, and purchase a spare length of wire and additional fittings to keep on board if you need emergency spares. If you find yourself somewhere in the world where only mild steel wire, chain, and u-bolts are available to make an emergency rerig, then great...but to do so with modern and superior material readily available is anachronistic and asking for trouble. Self-sufficiency is great, but it doesn't mean that poor choices in materials need be made either.

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:14 pm

Bernard's masts were salvaged telephone poles, Joshua was a custom steel hull with a plexiglas dome on top. I loved his book, The Long Way. How he arrived at his decision to abandon the first solo nonstop round the world race was as good as anything by Thomas Merton. He gave it to Robin Knox Johnson. An evocative account of a man taking himself to the abyss and moving further. Hell of a book. As far as his rigging advice..... Dated and unnecessarily anachronistic. He was French. Either just get rid of the spars and spend $2000 on the engine and fuel system, or keep it a sailboat, and spend what it takes to handle the loads with grace. There is a lot of money a person can save through his own efforts without resorting to substandard materials. I would suggest budgeting for learning. Rigging systems are most efficient when the level of force is uniform throughout. Replace to original design standards unless they were subpar for your intended use.

r

MQMurphy · Post by **MQMurphy** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:04 pm

Kris -
Ted Brewer had an article in Good Old Boat last year comparing the relative strenghts of galvanized wire vs. SS - I'll see if I can find it. There was a factor for upsizing the galv rigging to make up for different (read 'less') strength. I have a friend who lived/sailed on the west coat (of US) in the early 70's - he said all the hippies had their rigging held together with nicopress fittings . . .
All in all, I tend to agree with the advice you've already gotten here - you aren't in the boonies in a make-do situation, so might as well give yourself a little peace of mind.
PS - my advice isn't worth too much, I haven't been at this very long. I do read a lot, though. ;-)

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:17 pm

I was a bit surprised at the strong negative reactions (not that I claim any expertise).

My understanding (until now) has been that galvanized wire is an acceptable alternative, for which there are some advantages: it is said to be easier to inspect visually and to replace without special tools, and less prone to sudden failure. On the other hand, I have heard that sometimes you need to order "the good stuff" from England, and that it requires maintenance. I have also heard (but not seen for myself) that Brian Toss speaks favourably of it, and that it is used more in Europe than in North America.

I guess I must be missing something (I usually am), but I'm not sure what it is.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:32 pm

I don't think there's anything immediately wrong with the idea of galvanized wire vs. stainless. I think the flaw in the proposal is the use of bulldog clamps. Even if you don't have the patience for a liverpool splice, molly hogan splicing is dead-easy and far far better than bulldog clamping.

I think Britton has a good point about modern swageless terminals. I've never used them myself, but I'm under the impression that they're a well proven system that's quite user-friendly.

Personally, I'd go with Spectra rigging on the user-friendly aspect, though I've no idea of how the total costs compare.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:23 am

I sailed my 35 foot trimaran for 4 years with glavanised wire and nicropress fittings. Worked fine. You just have to accept the fact that maintanence is a constant. The big reason I chose it was I crewed aboard a race boat owned by theguy who made the wire- I got enough to rig the boat two and one half times, for free.

As I said, it held up well, but today I'd sure not use it, particularly on a monohull. On my tri, I had a WIDE staying base with no spreaders , double backstays, double headstays and double lowers. Main and mizzen. And the rigging loading was nowhere near as high in static conditions as a spreader rig would be.

I just last year rerigged Tehani. I used stalocs, which are simple to do, and bought an entire roll of wire the size needed. The roll gave me enough left to replace any two wires on the boat and wound up costing much less than buying "by the foot"

I'd follow Tim's suggestions on this one- rig with good wire, carry a length along to replace a couple, get some Stalocks and a few extra cones and rig up. Then you won't need to worry about it, other than normal maintainance, for the next ten years or so, depending on where and how you sail the boat. The Stalocs will cost more than the wire, but with new cones, those are reusable.

Oh - and add a toggle under every one of those turn buckles.

Oh - and except for a pure emergency- those bulldog clamps have absolutely NO place on a yachts rigging, period.

As for a source in Florida- look into Lewis marine. They have offices in Lauderdale and Pensacola. When I was over there I had an account with them- pretty complete supplier.

krissteyn · Post by **krissteyn** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:48 am

AHH HAA - I knew I could count on you guys to set me straight !

I am returning to Florida (from south of the equator) next month and wanna hit the deck running...

I will be selling/upgrading in a few years and judging by the re-action here, non SS rigging would be a big negative. So , will go with the flow...

Never having attempted rigging before, will be a strong learning curve with a few holes in my hands during the process.

Any more comments would be appreciated - especially where to cut costs - the exchange rate from my local to $us has left me 25% poorer in the last year.

Kris
kris

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:50 am

...glavanised wire and nicropress fittings. Worked fine.

True. Tarred hemp works too. And I certainly don't want to question Bernard's choices. I am sure he has reasons (remembering of course that he probably wrote his recomendations in an earlier, more technology constrained time) and his sailing abilities are clearly beyond question. I just feel that there are better alternatives and short of a really good reason (like getting the materials for free) one should always choose the options that benefit the boat the most.

I think it is John Vigor that writes about his bucket of luck. Every time he does some maintenance on his boat or upgrades to a higher standard of materials and/or systems he argues that he is adding to his bucket of luck so that when the time comes he can withdraw a bit to get out of a bad situation. Every way you can improve your boat gives that extra measure of safety and security.

Also, as you say Kris, when it comes time to sell the boat it might be a bit tricky explaining why you chose galvanized rigging over stainless.

Now how does that chain tensioning thing work?

-Britton

P.S. If I remember right, Mssr. Moitessier was under considerable financial constraints for much of his cruising time. That probably contributed to his choice of rigging.

P.P.S. Those pesky exchange rates can sure make life interesting.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:55 pm

But you left out my first line of the NEXT paragraph-

"As I said, it held up well, but today I'd sure not use it"

Please don't make it sound as if I was recommending glavanised.

krissteyn · Post by **krissteyn** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:06 pm

The tensioning / using chain...

If the wire round the eye begins to fray / rust/ fail , shorten the line and insert a longer length of chain - very quick fix... according to Bernard :<)

thanx for all the input - will certainly be looking at sta-loc fittings with new turnbuckles - seems a shame to waste the old turnbuckles which are perhaps the only bit I like (very heavy duty) but the new T/buckles will have different fittings. I never like swaged fittings.

When I come to upgrade - I can smile and say the experts were instumental in the installation of such fine rigging...

Now - I need to find a reasonable source. And a very good hacksaw blade !

is there any comment on the quality/source of the wire itself ?

kris

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:12 pm

forget the hacksaw. Get yourself a 4 inch angle grinder and fit it with an .045 cutoff wheel. That goes through stainless wire like a hot knife through butter.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:13 pm

Charlie wrote:But...

Hehe, yeah, I mentioned to a forum member this afternoon that my comment could be interpreted for more than I intended and that I should rush home and fix it. Too late I guess. I was just using your words as a beginning into my next thought not that I was thinking you recomended the idea. I will try not to mis-quote you next time :-)

-Britton

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:01 pm

we're cool

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:24 am

I am still confused: I would be obliged if anyone could correct or comment on the "facts" that I have identified so far:

* Galvanized wire rope is less subject to metal fatigue from cyclic loading, as well as to stress corrosion and crevice corrosion.
* It therefore seems less prone to sudden unexpected failure. It would appear to avoid the uncertainty, inspection difficulties, and frequent replacement philosophy which seem to apply to stainless?

* Several sources indicate that if galvanized is properly maintained, then it has a longer, more reliable working life. http://www.bosunsupplies.com/Fatigue.cfm
*A NASA document says that Nicopress sleeves will hold military grade 7 X 7 aircraft cable until it breaks.
( http://www.csbf.nasa.gov/documents/gondola/gond3.pdf ) This also appears to be supported here: http://www.bosunsupplies.com/NicopressSwage.cfm

One offset to this is that 1 X 19 stainless has a higher safe working load for the same diameter than 7 X 7, and that galvanised is not available in this construction. On the other hand, 1 X 19 is less flexible, which would seem to make it more vulnerable to cyclic stress loading?

So far my web-based research indicates the trade-off is maintenance twice a year in order to gain longer life, greater reliability, and lower cost. I guess there is also the issue of competent installation and of market perceptions - if a technology is not widely used, then that obviously creates a barrier.

I am sure something accounts for the popularity of stainless (low maintenance, smaller diameter of 1 X 19?) , but so far, I am not "getting it".

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:16 am

Duncan,

I think aesthetics are probably a big factor. Which is more "yachty"? Nice bright shiny stainless steel wire going into a sleek end terminal, or dull gray (rust streaked?) galvanized wire wrapped around a thimble and held in place with nicopress sleeves?

Regards,

Tim

Post by **Tim** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:23 am

I don't think anyone really indicated that 7x7 galvanized wire rope was an unsuitable material, when properly installed and maintained. What was mentioned was a concern over the proposed use of bolt-on clamps to secure said wire.

I believe the reasons for the general widespread use of 1x19 SS wire in the yachting industry might revolve around the issues below, at least in part. This is pure rumination on my part, and based on no real information other than experience in the boating field:

1. A perceived need for less maintenance; the perception (untrue, as we all know) that stainless steel is maintenance-free and corrosion-free drives a large portion of the market. It goes along with newfangled, low-maintenance material called fiberglass. The fact is that most 1x19 SS wire holds up for a very long time despite having absolutely no maintenance at all. Despite being an ill-advised pursuit, we all know that there are lots of boats with 20- or even 40 year-old SS rigging.

2. The wide acceptance and use of machine-made swage terminals. These are fast and cheap. Fast and cheap equals gold in the manufacturing world. Hand splicing, the best way to secure 7x7 galvy wire, is extremely strong, but time-consuming and a skill not known by many.

3. 1x19 SS wire has lower stretch and higher strenth for a given size. I think this suits the advances in spar and sail technology better. The smoother 1x19 also has less windage and weight aloft. Since virtually all changes in yachting originate with the yacht racing side of things, it's logical that materials that suit racers better (low stretch, lower windage, high strength) would trickle down to all aspects of boating, particularly production boats.

4. Aesthetics probably do play a role.

5. Plenty of boats still use galvanized wire. These boats tend to be wooden, with wooden spars. I think the galvanized wire is a better fit to boats of traditional construction. I don't recall ever being on a fiberglass sailboat with galvanized wire rigging, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

6. I admit that I was unaware of testing showing the excellent strength of Nicropress fittings, and that perhaps I based my comment on a lack of information. But despite that, I would suggest that it is very easy to make a poor Nicropress connection, and more difficult to make one that is as strong as the tests show. I think the real concern with these is that they could be poorly executed in the hands of an unskilled person, and therefore might be less ideal.

7. The initial reasons for using SS wire might not have necessarily been entirely logical, nor because of a true shortfall of the galvanized wire. But this is how many things become commonplace. Maybe one's not better than the other, but certainly there are pros and cons to each.

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:22 pm

Tim and Tim, thanks very much for the feedback and comments. The more I learn, the more there is to learn, of course, but I think I have a better handle on things now.

This is a big help, as one of my boats has original rigging that is overdue for replacement. I am selling it this spring (I hope): from the comments here, I think marketability suggests stainless, regardless of what I might do if I was keeping it.

The other one's rigging has six or seven years of seasonal use since being replaced, and was recently pronounced ok, so I think I have a little time. On the other hand, it has stainless chainplates that haven't seen the light of day for forty years, so I think they are much more likely to be an immediate issue!
Thanks again, much appreciated.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:04 pm

Kris,

I just went through this a couple of years ago when I did it myself. A couple of tips I learned along the way:

1. riggingonly.com-- best prices out there and great advice.

2. Make sure you know the pin sizes on both the deck (chainplates) AND up on top of the mast... DO NOT assume they are the same size... don't ask me how I know this.

3. When I ordered the stays and shrouds, I had only the tops swaged and added an foot extra foot of wire to each. I used mechanical swages on the bottom (Hayn Hi-mods) which were so easy it took a mere 20 minutes per to install.

4. As far as measuring and cutting... I had premeasured with some guestimating when the rig was up but once the rig was down I needed to replace my mast step and didn't know how that would affect height of the mast etc. This is why I left an extra foot of wire on the stays and shrouds.

5. Once everything was ready to go, we attached the tops of the shrouds and stays to the mast. Then the yard stepped the mast and held it up until we could get bottom of two stays attached. We did this by centering the mast and pulling the stay to its corresponding chainplate and measuring a predetermined length for the turnbuckle. Once the yard was done, we continued on the other terminals.

6. Cutting the wire was straightforward. We marked the spot on the wire, mounted the wire on a 2x4 with hand clamps, then cut the wire with a grinder cut-off wheel. We sprayed water on the wire to keep it from deforming under the heat just in case.

7. We went around to each stay one at a time and installed the Hi-mod mechanical swaged terminals and then the turnbuckles. The whole process took the better of the day-- but that is because I had mast wiring issues, new spreaders etc. and a myriad other details to worry about when the mast was re-stepped.

Good Luck!

Shoalcove · Post by **Shoalcove** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:16 pm

I replaced some of my rigging last spring and will do the rest this spring. After much consideration and some free advice from Bob Perry ( designer of my CL35) I went with 316SS and Mi Mods which I got from Rigging Only.
The staff at Rigging Only were great and very helpful. The Hi Mods were straightforward to install. Rig stayed up so far. : ) Sweged fittings seem to have too many issues for me. I cut my wire with a hack saw and it is quick, easy and quiet. Cut a wire sized hole near the end of a 2x2, split the hole longitudinally with a saw kerf, slide in wire and clamp tight. Cut wire by sawing end of 2x2 into the wire. It is easy to measure and leaves clean ends and no heat issues.
I think that quality galvanized and nicro press will do the job but aesthetics suffer the boat design is not "classic" or workboat. OTOH, if looks were the only factor in making decisions, my lovely wife would likely have taken a pass...