Light air mainsail collapse

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:26 pm

As I've probably mentioned a handful of times previously, my main is a secondhand Shields main, it's a smidge long in the foot and the shape is getting bag-ish, but the cloth and stitching are still in very good condition.

What's recently become quite annoying is that the weight of the reef patches will cause the leach to collapse when broad reaching in light air.

Is this something any of you have experienced?

I can't tell if this is something that would happen anyway with the vang-supported boom or if it's really exacerbated by the reef patches, which were added in the past few years, not designed/built into the sail originally.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:12 am

I don't know how you can consider running that old main with that spiffy new Oceanus genoa at the other end of the boat.

Start the chant: new main...new main...new main...

(Is that helpful? Probably not; I'm handy that way.)

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:49 am

New main was the best 1800 bucks I ever spent.

Ever.

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:52 am

Do you have battens of any sort in that main? I've got to believe that if your leach is collapsing than there is something wrong with the main?either in construction or condition. That just doesn't seem right. Unless you are talking about more of a slatting conditon due to the wind getting rolled out of the sail in very light conditions. That's something else altoghther though.

Perhaps Brian will have some insight here?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:03 pm

I'm pretty sure that a new main complete with batten/car/track system will easily double the total of my winter shopping list.

Yes, I have three of the standard (36-40" or so) battens along the leach. The collapse happens right at the forward end of the battens. That solid heavy roach created by the battens and reef patches collapses forward into the (aforementioned "bag-ish") belly of the sail.

Part of me thinks that this could be remedied by extending the top batten to the luff, but I dunno that it makes sense to pump any more money into modifying this sail.

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:37 pm

Yeah, I can't remember having that problem. Sounds like the sail is probably getting blown out? (you used the word "baggy" after all!)

Certainly full length battens would prevent that kind of collapse, and there are plusses and minuses to full battens just like everything else. It doesn't sound to me like pouring money into this sail would be dollars well spent, however.

David VanDenburgh · Post by **David VanDenburgh** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:21 pm

What about removing the battens and going with a hollow roach? You could do that yourself and, voila, problem solved. I think it's a rather insignificant amount of sail area - most cruisers seem to live without it - and it eliminates one of the most chafe-prone areas of the main. Just a thought.

David

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:38 pm

Damn the chanting!

though the cost still seems prohibitive, I'm starting to think "new main new main new main", and I'm realizing just how little I know about full-batten systems. Can anyone point to a good source of info on the topic?
What's the deal with partial-full batten systems (very long battens that stop just short of the luff)?

I assume that I'll need to factor a track&car system into the total cost of this move as well. What other ancillary costs might I be overlooking?

Post by **dasein668** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:00 pm

While a track/car system is nice it's hardly necessary on a Triton. Even with full battens.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:59 pm

I have full length battens but no special track system.

A track system would be very nice though. Retracting lazy-jacks would also be nice to control those unruly long battens. I definitely will have the lazy jacks when I go out next time.

I can still see the smug look on Tim's face as he nonchalantly drops his main in a quarter of a second (Strong track) neatly onto the boom (lazy jacks) and then stares curiously as I pull my sail down and then try to contain it as it spills all over the deck and resists any attempt to lay cleanly on the boom.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:56 am

Figment wrote:I assume that I'll need to factor a track&car system into the total cost of this move as well. What other ancillary costs might I be overlooking?

You don't truly need a track and car system just because you have full battens. That said, full battens do introduce quite a bit of forward pressure at the luff, and the slugs need to have hefty attachments to prevent damage over time. Originally, the slugs on my new main were lashed in place and suffered greatly under the forces of the battens. I was frequently relashing.

However, if you have any inclination to want a track system, get it at the same time as your new main so that the sail can be built to incorporate the proper batten ends and slugs/cars. You'll save substantially in this way. The cars come along with the track, whichever system you buy, and don't really incur much additional cost in terms of building the sail. Converting later, however, requires some labor--which one could do themselves, of course, if so inclined. But it's better to just incorporate them from the getgo.

I decided I didn't need the Strong track when I first had my main built, and ignored the advice of my sailmaker to install it at that time. When I added it last year, at not-insignificant sail modification expense, I received a kind "I told you so" from him.

I can highly recommend the Strong track. It's not cheap, but compared to something like the Harken Bat Car system, it's very reasonable. If your sail is built with the Strong track in mind, it won't cost much more than if you built it for traditional cars, so the main upgrade in cost is the cost of the Strong track--around $600-$700.

The sail fairly crashes down when you let fly the halyard--great for those mooring and anchoring eposodes under sail. I love it, and would never go without, now that I've "seen the light". I now consider an aftermarket track system to be part of any rigging upgrade for future boats.

You don't have to go full batten, either. I like them because they hold their shape well in all conditions, and they can support a full roach--which is a debatable asset (or hinderance) to a Triton. The sail never slats in calms or when using the mainsail while powering. Sometimes, in very light breezes, the top batten won't invert immediately when tacking, but usually this snaps into place within a couple minutes.

I suspect that the partial-full battens you are talking about are designed to minimize the harsh forward-facing stress on the luff and sail cars that I mentioned earlier.

I was thinking more about a real answer to your leech collapse, and think that it is more a symptom of worn-out and soft sailcloth being unable to sustain its shape at the hard spot forward of the batten pockets. This is typically the first place to show real signs of a sail's age and wear and tear. And your leech may not truly be rugged enough for those add-on reef patches, which would exacerbate the problem.

Nothing (nothing) improves the sailing quality of a boat more than new sails. Of course it makes sense, given the fact that the sails are what drive the boat forward, but it's amazing how noticeable the difference truly is. Lots of sails that still look good are actually far past their productive years, and the performance difference realized by new canvas just blows the mind.

This is unfortunate, because it only serves to accelerate the time interval between future new sail purchases!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:35 pm

Tim wrote: I was thinking more about a real answer to your leech collapse, and think that it is more a symptom of worn-out and soft sailcloth being unable to sustain its shape at the hard spot forward of the batten pockets. This is typically the first place to show real signs of a sail's age and wear and tear. And your leech may not truly be rugged enough for those add-on reef patches, which would exacerbate the problem.

Ayup. I noticed that yesterday when I had laid the sail out on the floor for the end-of-season foldup. While some parts of the sail are still quite sturdy, the area forward of the battens is remarkably soft.
Good call.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:30 am

Behold; the power of the chanting...

I've decided to pull the trigger on the new main.

A few different sources have suggested that better shape is obtained by only doing the top two battens full-length, and leaving the bottom two at 1/3 length.

This may be a coke vs pepsi thing. I've done a little bit of homework but I haven't been able to turn up any solid argument either way. Help.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:02 pm

Figment wrote:Behold; the power of the chanting...

I've decided to pull the trigger on the new main.

A few different sources have suggested that better shape is obtained by only doing the top two battens full-length, and leaving the bottom two at 1/3 length.

This may be a coke vs pepsi thing. I've done a little bit of homework but I haven't been able to turn up any solid argument either way. Help.

Good call on the new sail. You're enough of a speed guy that you'll truly appreciate the improvement in your sail shape over the old rag. What the boat wants, the boat gets.

My own opinion is that if you're going full batten, then go full batten. I think the benefits realized from the top two battens also applies to the bottom two.

That said, I've never sailed a partially-full battened main. I've seen them, to be sure. What I do know is that I really like my full batten main (all four battens). If you were in the America's Cup, some additional testing would be called for. But you're not.

I guess one of the best sources for an answer on this, which applies to your specific situation, would be the sailmaker building the sail. These guys know what works best for the way that they build sails. A bunch of bozos online don't really know, right?

It's probably as much Coke vs. Pepsi as anything. (Coke being the "all full batten" camp, of course.)

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:03 pm

Tim wrote:(Coke being the "all full batten" camp, of course.)

Ain't that the truth!!! Hehe

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:48 pm

Cease the chanting.

(yes, I know the battens are set a bit tight.)

Post by **Tim** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:29 am

Nice! Nothing like a fresh new sail. But where's the Triton logo?

I suppose it's the "sun-behind-the-clouds" lighting that makes the material look so much darker than I expected. Isn't it more of a light cream color? In the photo, that looks almost like Kevlar.

How are you liking your new Strong track so far? When do you cave for the lazy jacks?

And, finally, one more question: does your sailmaker put a telltale on the bottommost batten, or leave it off? Mine leaves it off, and, frankly, it drives me nuts. (but since I only notice it when I'm sailing and the batten is out of reach, 6 seasons have gone by and I haven't stuck one on myself...)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:23 am

The triton logo and numbers were omitted in the rush to completion. I'm glad for it now, I'm not so sure that the numbers were a great idea. The logo will get there.

Yes the color is completely misrepresented. I'm just so giddy that I threw up whatever photo I had.

The strong track is as wonderful as advertised. Julia, having forgotten about that particular change, even commented after the first hoist that it went up very quickly. Likewise the takedown was a matter of holding the halyard in one hand to control the rate of descent while the left hand directed the flakes. Butter.
I'll go for lazyjacks about the same time that I go for roller furling. ;p

That's not a telltale. It's a batten velcro extraction lanyard. Yes, I absolutely intend to tag a few onto the leach.

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Mon May 21, 2007 1:34 pm

Sir Fig in the forest,

While pretty and all, love those belly telltales, what desperate readers are dying to know is, how does it sail? Is it really all connected, fun and boat speed, I mean?

R

re: forum rules.
I have no idea how to punctuate those sentences.
Mea Culpa Aquatisus ;)

r

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon May 28, 2007 8:05 pm

Yes. Sail shape and fun are connected.
Adjustments to this sail have immediate impact on the boat. Even Julia (love her, but she's rather ham-handed at the helm) commented that she immediately felt "something" when I took a honk on the cunningham the other day.

pics in better light.

I think I might need to add a slug to that cunningham grommet, though.

Post by **dasein668** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:11 pm

That's a nice looking sail, Mike!

Post by **Tim** » Tue May 29, 2007 6:38 am

Looks great--nice shape.

Who's the sail loft?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:30 am

The loft is called Kappa Sails.

I admit that I started doing business with Clarke primarily as a function of convenience (location location location), but he really is a pleasure to work with and I endorse his work wholeheartedly.