Lavac installation in a Triton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:58 pm

Okay, warm your keyboards. Here comes another multi-page thread on our favority topic...

A couple of questions concerning a Lavac head in a Triton.

I know the plumbing needs a vented loop in the system. Can this loop be inches above the waterline or does it need to really be up there. I ask because I would like to stick the pump and plumbing in the "medicine cabinet" behind the head in the Triton but at higher angles of heel the highest spot is really at or just above the waterline. I don't think anyone else has gone this route (probably because it is a dumb idea) but just in case...

Based on past threads, a couple of people have chosen to use PVC pipe for their head plumbing. How is this working out?

Can a single pump be used for flushing the tank and emptying the holding tank (and maybe as an additional bilge pump) or does the plumbing just get too complicated to be worthwhile?

With several Lavacs installed in Tritons, any special comments or suggestions before I make my own series of "errors to learn from?"

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:13 pm

The vented loop is fine in the "medicine cabinet", up as high as you can get it under the side deck. If the boat is ever heeled so far to port for the loop to be below the waterline for sufficient duration to establish backflow, you have bigger problems than an overflowing head.

The PVC hasn't been in place long enough for its benefits to shine yet. When the hose starts to stink but the pipe is fine, I'll let you know, but that shouldn't be for a few years yet. I will say that the pvc has an advantage on the installation end because you can dry-fit the entire assembly and fine tune this and that before making everything final. The joints come apart and adjust far more easily than hose connections.

Yeah, a single pump can do double duty, and yeah the plumbing does get kinda nutty in such a small space. I'll let Tim do the ranting on the frustration of working with hose and fittings in that space.

My Special Suggestion: Remove the medicine cabinet, do the plumbing thing, and then rebuild the cabinet, which at that point is really just a panel to conceal the plumbing.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:24 pm

My Special Suggestion: Remove the medicine cabinet, do the plumbing thing, and then rebuild the cabinet

Thanks Mike, the cabinet has actually been gone from my boat for quite a while, ever since I rebuilt the aft chainplate knees. All I have left is the cabinet door. While the storage will be missed, hiding the chaotic plumbing will be nice.

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:05 am

I woke up in the middle of the night with another question. My holding tank is located under the port side V-berth. When the boat is well heeled over, is the highest point on the holding tank (inside edge about a foot off the centerline and just below the normal V-berth height) going to be too close the highest point in the medicine cabinet? A vented loop high up on the aft bulkhead would require the boat to go over before the holding tank could fill the whole hose.

Continuing with the heeled over thought, should the holding tank have shutoff valves to keep the contents from "climbing" up the hose as the boat lays over? Would I remember to use the valves when needed?

Those drawings of a simple straight overboard discharge system looks so tempting...

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:54 am

The idea of the vented loop in any line like this is to stop a siphon action, should the device (such as the head) be at or below the waterline.

If you simply close your seacocks (conveniently located right in the head itself, in our case) each time, you'll never need to worry.

The Lavac raw water intake line requires a small air intake at the top of a high loop, in order to make it work properly. This can be (and should be) located at the highest point beneath the sidedeck, which is where mine is located.

I recommend you keep your system AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. This really means that you should route all head discharge into the tank first, then with an outlet that leads both overboard and to a deck fitting. If you place a good discharge pump somewhere convenient, you can easily pump the contents of your tank where you so desire, but forcing all discharge into the tank not only satisfies the law everywhere you go, but also greatly simplifies the plumbing.

I would never plumb a head the way I did on Glissando, ever again--far too convoluted and complicated. KISS is the rule of the day! Live and learn.

I believe you should use two separate pumps for pumping the head and emptying the tank. Not only does this give you a built-in spare, but will also greatly simplify your plumbing. If you choose a Henderson MK IV pump for your manual bilge pump as well, then you end up with three identical pumps on board, making keeping spares onboard easier (one spares kit fits all), and also allowing for immediate switch-out should it become necessary.

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:23 pm

[quote="Tim"]The idea of the vented loop in any line like this is to stop a siphon action, should the device (such as the head) be at or below the waterline.

If you simply close your seacocks (conveniently located right in the head itself, in our case) each time, you'll never need to worry.

Tim,

What was that? I am a little behind on this subjsect as well . . . I can get away without a vented loop on the head if I turn on and off the seacocks with each use - is that correct?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:42 pm

I can get away without a vented loop on the head if I turn on and off the seacocks with each use - is that correct?

Umm.. yeah. Closing the seacocks will prevent the lines from siphoning water into the boat. Unless you are forgetful like me and then the boat sinks the first time you walk away from the head.

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:06 pm

I recommend you keep your system AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. This really means that you should route all head discharge into the tank first, then with an outlet that leads both overboard and to a deck fitting.

Why do I always try to over-engineer this stuff? For some reason I am resistant to the KISS system quoted above because I don't want to put dirty stuff in the holding tank unless I really need to It is an utterly rediculous urge. In my head (the one sitting on my shoulders) I have this system worked out where 4 Y-valves move cleanly and the whole system, powered by a single pump (3 inputs from toilet, holding tank, bilge, 3 outputs to overboard, holding tank, deck fitting), is hidden unobtrusively behind the cabinet. Between this and my recent plans for the freshwater system as posted on another thread I think I need to start going to Over Engineering Annonymous Meetings...

Okay, the KISS system, does the holding tank outlet need a valve to direct the output between the overboard pump and the deck suction fitting or will the checkvalves in the waste pump effectively seal off the overboard line?

-Britton

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:30 pm

Yeah, I get it - I knew that part about the boat sinking if the seacocks are left opened and the head unattended. Just thought that something new was in there somewhere.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:37 pm

Mike, how complicated is your lavac installation? Did you follow Tim's suggestion or will I be seeing you at the meeting?

-Britton

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:55 am

Does the Lavac head require a vent on the high end of the loop on the discharge hose? It doesn't show one in the Lavac manual. The head installation page on the Glissando site doesn't mention one, so I assume one wasn't used.

http://www.triton381.com/projects/restoration/head2.htm

This is probably a silly question, but why wouldn't the line require a vent to prevent back siphoning?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:47 am

My installation, as it stands, is fairly simple. I have, however, set myself up to be able to make it wonderfully complex in the future. The whole holding tank thing is a project that just keeps getting bumped down the list. While I'm technically illegal, I can honestly say that in the two years since installation, I have never actually committed the crime. Too much info? too late. It's a head thread.

Once the paintjob is done and the dust cover is off the deck, I'll get in there and snap a pic of the plumbing layout for you. Rebuilding the "concealment panel" is another of those often-bumped projects, so it's all there plain as day.

John, yes you need a "vented loop" in the discharge line to break the siphon. I haven't looked at a lavac diagram in a while, but I'm pretty sure it's on there.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:58 am

There ya go. Break out the magnifying glass. it's that little bump in the line on the left. the termination of that line is the seacock.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:28 pm

Doh-thanks for pointing it out Mike.

Interestingly, they don't show the vent on the intake line in that diagram. But they make it very clear in the text part of the documentation. I didn't find any reference to the vented loop on the discharge line in the text part of the documentation. Thanks for the clarification. I'm planning to do the installation in the diagram you posted above. It's interesting to note that when pumping out using the deck pump out, the holding tank contents are simply drawn through the inboard pump. It looks like a good installation.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:50 pm

oh, and while on topic of vented loop fittings....

Mine leaks a bit out the top of the vent fitting with each flush. Juuuust a teeny trickle, but enough that I need to stay on top of it so the wife doesn't notice it and get grossed out and declare that she'll never come on the boat again. Pesky.

It's the black plastic kind. I dunno if it's genuine Marelon or a knock-off, I bought it at a tag sale. I'm considering replacing it with well-proven bronze unit. All reccommendations appreciated.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:57 pm

Thanks Mike, your partial confession gives just enough information to assume guilt but not enough to actually prove anything. Very good on you :-) I have always wondered about the ability of the vented loop in the output to keep the bad stuff in so I guess I have my answer.

I got my lavac from UPS today. I assume the special vented intake fitting comes with the manual model. I say assume because someone made a mistake. I paid for a manual model and I received an electric pump. If someone wants an electric upgrade for their Lavac then call me quick before my guilt drives me to confess the error and start the exchange process.

-Britton

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:10 pm

Britton, there are two little bleed plugs that ship in the same bag as the owner's manual and placards. The white one is used if you install your Lavac above the waterline. The black one is used for installations below the waterline. I assume the plug is needed regardless of whether you use an electric pump or a manual pump.

I can't imagine you wanting an electric pump version of the Lavac. At least not without a manual backup. All that would take up a lot of room your boat.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:22 pm

Owner's manual? Placards? I really need to call somebody...

I do want the manual version but the electric version is a lot more expensive so I stand to make some quick cash if I can put aside my morals.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:39 pm

Not all that surprising. I think you ordered that head from Defender at the worst possible time of year. They spend most of March spooling up for their huge warehouse sale, and most of april recovering from it. It took me 3 phone calls just to get a straight answer on whether my bottom paint was a stock item or a special order.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:10 pm

$319.99 at Hamilton Marine actually. I found the manual, placards and the little fittings. They were stuffed down the toilet. All that is wrong with the order now is that I received the $935 dollar electric version instead of the manual version I ordered.

I hear Defender quoted a lot but every time I check their prices I find the items slightly cheaper somewhere else. I have never had an opportunity to order from Defender yet.

-Britton

Case · Post by **Case** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:59 pm

Actually... Hamilton Marine had a sale last week. It ended last Sunday. I think they probably was overwhelmed just like Defender so hence your "upgrade."

An electric Lavac sure is a nice upgrade! As far I know (could be wrong), they don't consume that much electricity. After all, you only press the button a second or so. Longer than that, your head has problems. So the total electrical draw isn't that much, really. The amount of water consumed is probably less because the electric motor is more precise. Some "head" experts actually recommend the electric versions. Bottomline, your batteries should not suffer excessive drain unless you have an extreme case of the diaherras. I could be wrong, though.

But on the other hand, I seem to remember you saying you want to sail all around the world. So that means you will be far away... when the head decides to play a joke with you. You would need to bring a spare electric pump which is $$$. Cheaper to bring a few spares parts of the regular toliet pump. It's usually best to keep things as idiotically simple for the long voyages. It's ultimately up to you.

If you do decide to return the electric pump, perhaps try to get Hamilton Marine to throw in a free spare part as a thank you gift?

- Case

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:18 am

Wow, I didn't realize there was such a difference in price.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:19 am

bcooke wrote:Owner's manual? Placards? I really need to call somebody...

I do want the manual version but the electric version is a lot more expensive so I stand to make some quick cash if I can put aside my morals.

-Britton

I sure wouldn't want the electric version. What an unnecessary complication for such a simple chore.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:32 am

A30_John wrote:Does the Lavac head require a vent on the high end of the loop on the discharge hose? It doesn't show one in the Lavac manual. The head installation page on the Glissando site doesn't mention one, so I assume one wasn't used.

http://www.triton381.com/projects/restoration/head2.htm

This is probably a silly question, but why wouldn't the line require a vent to prevent back siphoning?

It does, technically. And if one has a boat where the head allows backflow siphoning, it's considerably more important to have an antisiphon vent installed.

But I can't imagine putting a vent line in the head discharge, for this reason:

Figment wrote:Mine leaks a bit out the top of the vent fitting with each flush. Juuuust a teeny trickle, but enough that I need to stay on top of it so the wife doesn't notice it and get grossed out and declare that she'll never come on the boat again. Pesky.

In my case, closing the seacocks is one of those things that I always remember to do. They're right there in plain sight, in my case. If they weren't, I'd relocate them so that they were. Seacocks for everything should always be easily accessible.

It also helps that the Henderson bilge pump used in the Lavac system acts essentially as a check valve in the discharge line, as it does not allow water to flow backwards through it. I do not get any water in the head if I leave the intake/discharge valves open, at least when the boat's at rest. When cruising, we sometimes leave the seacocks open when at anchor, though they're always closed when underway as a safeguard.

bcooke wrote:Here comes another multi-page thread on our favority topic...

Again and again, this is proven. But I still don't understand why these head topics always garner such lengthy threads--longer than any other. Bizarre.

My next installation will have a simple manual Lavac plumbed directly to a holding tank, which is in turn plumbed directly overboard (and to deck). The manual pump for emptying the tank will be located very conveniently in the head for ease of use. Simple, no fuss, and it does everything you want--and it's even legal, though staying legal for this silly regulation is the least of my worries, frankly.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:16 am

Tim, thanks - this is very timely. The head is going in this week and I'll try this installation.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:39 pm

Hi folks,

I wasn't going to post because I'm on a ridiculously expensive card at an Internet cafe. But then Britton starts a head thread - he *knows* no-one can resist those...

I just wanted to pop in with an opinion about the "pump out through holding tank" setup, and that is that if you do plan to spend time offshore or out of the U.S. (and I realize that many people/boats do not plan to do that), it is *really* nice to be able to pump straight out, without going through the holding tank (I've been on one boat with each set-up).

The offshore benefits are probably obvious - you can clean out your holding tank and then just leave it pristine. But it's also nice in many foreign places where they don't have pumpouts whatsoever, and it's up to each boat to "manage" their own waste.

Oh, I always end up having to get descriptive here, eventually. Heh.

Well, oftentimes in an anchorage, it's fine (I realize I'm treading into opinion territory here) to pump #1 overboard, but you might choose to keep #2 in the tank until you get to a better location, or at least until an outgoing tide. So it can be handy to be able to pump some... sessions overboard while also pumping some into the tank (which you are trying not to fill up, of course).

An alternative is to pee in the sink or in a special jug, of course (do mark it as such... ;-)

Okay, stopping now.

--- Rachel

PS I've been away for a couple of weeks on a delivery trip from the BVI to Norfolk so I have got some serious catching up to do! We had fine sailing the first week or so, but then a front developed into something more, and the 40+ knots of NE wind forecast for our Gulf Stream crossing did not look all that fun, so we diverted to Bermuda, where we've been since Tuesday, and await a suitable weather window. Wireless access has NOT caught on here, in general.

Oh, droolworthy boat note: We are docked on the outside of the pier at the Royal Bermuda Yacht Club (not my usual style, as you might have guessed), and just a couple of hours ago "Palawan," a 73-foot, Ted Hood-designed Little Harbor pulled in behind us, bound from Antigua to Newport to do the Newport-to-Bermuda race in June. I generally find smaller boats more interesting, but it is neat to see it, and I *think* it might be the same "Palawan" that was in the Rolex Ocean Race. Suddenly "our" 64-footer looks small ;-)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:20 pm

But on the other hand, I seem to remember you saying you want to sail all around the world.

That definitely wasn't me. I am much too afraid :-) I like the idea of coastal cruising my way up to Newfoundland and down to the Bahamas. If I am feeling a bit perky maybe a trip to Bermuda.

... well okay, I DO harbor secret fantasies of an ocean crossing but as I get older I am realizing that I am not going to be able to fulfill ALL my fantasies. I need to be selective with my limited time.

I did toy with the idea of keeping the electric pump. My concience would bug me though unless I paid properly for it and I don't have that kind of cash for what is (to my mind - personal opinion) a limited upgrade. Even if I had an electric pump I would want a manual backup and I simply don't have the room for that much stuff in my tiny boat.

Rachel, Bermuda isn't the worse place to get stuck. Don't expect me to feel sorry for you :-) Glad to hear that it is going well. (SPOILER)Last I heard from you, you were running from a huge gas explosion. Sounds like an exciting trip so far.

As for peeing in the sink... Well, I don't know about others but I wash my dishes in the sink and then I eat off my dishes. I have heard that recyling pee can be done reasonably safely but I would prefer to leave that as an academic question. Even if I DID try to continue that line of conversation I think someone's supreme editing powers would finally drop the hammer on my often excessively open minded and wildly divergent postings.

Last year I actually did use a little jar since my alternative was the rapidly filling five gallon bucket (I think it took the other boys a few days to figure out what I was dumping every morning...) but the whole point of the Lavac installation is to act more socially acceptable. Chatting with the neighboring boat while dumping the jar over the side makes for some interesting looks and guarantees that I will continue to sail solo on all my future cruises.

As for keeping the holding tank empty by pumping straight overboard, I agree but I am not sure why I hold to that thought. Maybe I worry about filling the little 16 gallon tank before I get an opportunity to dump overboard, maybe I am just being silly (it has happened before) Simplicity has a lot going for it.

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:22 pm

Oh, and I am curious if anyone has had a smell problem when the output loop has a siphon vent installed. I assume it would but I have been wrong before. Do they make anti-siphon fittings that can be plumbed overboard?

-B.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:37 pm

I agree with Rachel's points. For a boat that is definitely headed offshore, a direct overboard head discharge seems like required equipment.

For the coastal sailing that all of us do, and most of us will never exceed, a direct overboard pump can still be OK a lot of the time, if you don't broadcast it. (Like this.) But of course it is illegal in all coastal and inshore waters in the US. So a tank is also required, if undesirable. Never mind the politics on either side of this particular legality.

The problem is that it becomes more and more complicated, when coastal cruising, to maintain a direct-overboard discharge along with options to pump into the tank, and/or to manually pump the tank overboard, if desired, or to a shoreside facility. This capacity isn't a requirement, but given the sorry state of so-called pumpout stations, at least where I sail, it seems a requirement to have some sort of self-sufficient manner of ridding the boat of this waste. Having these myriad options means that the plumbing becomes necessarily complicated.

But there are times, in gunkholes or in areas with less tidal flushing action, or many more boats close aboard, where withholding waste on board is necessary, if only dictated by good manners. Then, one is faced with the near impossibility of ridding themselves of this contained product later on, often with inconvenient, inoperable, inaccessible, or nonexistent pumping stations. What is one to do, from a practical standpoint?

This is why I now favor (after doing it the Rube Goldberg way on Glissando) the KISS method I described above--all waste into the tank, and the tank easily discharged overboard. This more or less means that one can discharge overboard at any and all times, if desired, with one extra pumping step. It seems, to me, to be almost as easy this way, but has the added benefit of meeting the legal requirements in a very simple way, while still allowing all the discharge options of the Rube Goldberg method.

Again, never mind the legalities and politics here. We all know that from a practical standpoint, in many areas of the country, one simply cannot rely on shoreside stations, and we further know that whenever it rains, the shoreside storm sewers dump far worse contaminents into the waters than 1000 cruising sailboats ever could. So it's great to withhold waste if it's practical, but for a lot of us it would simply mean we might as well stay home and forgo cruising altogether--at least till harbors start installing dump stations at one's intended anchoring point, like at an RV campground, into which one can simply plug a nice hose. I'm not holding my breath!

So I favor making a simple system that meets US laws for coastal sailing, but can still easily pump elsewhere if desired, or if legal.

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