New Triton Stanchions and Railings

[bcooke]

I am starting to look forward at my next series of deck projects and I am thinking about my stanchions and pulpits. My current system is okay but I would like double lifelines and I prefer the welded stanchion bases to my current stanchions with screws holding the tubing to the bases. Also, after dining on Glissando this past summer I really like the way the lifelines by the cockpit can be removed without removing tension to the rest of the lifeline system.

So I am thinking 2 new stanchions per side to accomodate the double lifeline and two "gate" stanchions at the aft terminus of the lines.

Anyone know the proper angle for the Triton stanchions or do I need to get off my lazy butt and measure it myself?

Now for my really wild idea... I don't like how the mainsheet lies across the lifelines when the boom is out. Most boats are rigged this way but I am looking for an improvement. What I was thinking is that I can reduce the length that the stern pulpit wraps around the sides i.e. making it flatter and keeping the pulpit aft of the mainsheet run and put in a second set of gates just forward of the pulpit bases. Maybe I need a drawing for this (note: I added one). The concept would create a V-gap in the lifelines right where the mainsheet runs and would allow the mainsheet a straight run to the boom. This setup might also allow me to widen the mainsheet traveler base slightly for a dubious improvement in performance.



Thanks Dasein for allowing me to draw all over you :-)

Any thoughts? Am I crazy? (limit this query to the current question please)

-Britton

[dasein668]

A couple thoughts:

1) permanent gates make it challenging to really get a good cover on the boat. OK if you are indoors or under a shed, but if you want to put a "regular" cover on the boat the stupid things really get in the way and make it difficult to get a good smoothly shedding cover. Not impossible, but difficult. The further forward your forward gate is the worse this becomes. It used to be a nuisance for me, but after moving the gates forward during last winter's projects, it became a real problem.

2) I think that the notch thing is, well, I'll say it: crazy. I mean I think it would probably sort of work if you got the placement just right, but I think you will find that that placement is waaaaay forward of where you are thinking that it is. I think that you would end up with a notch a) right where you want to step aboard; b) right in the spot where you spend most of your time and thus want greatest security; and c) I think you may find that you run the risk of catching the sheet on your pulpit/gates in the case of light wind+rolly seas or accidental gybe thereby possibly ripping things apart. (How's that for a run-on sentance).

Please ignore the elephant abuse. Also note that the main isn't even fully out in this picture.

[The Good Goose]

If the lead of the mainsheet is important to you I would spend my money on moving the traveler to the cabin top. I think everyone would miss the nicely led mainsheet on your system because they would be too busy trying to figure out why the life lines were so screwy. I don't know if a dodger will work with a cabin top traveler. If it will or if you don't need one I think mid boom sheeting has a lot going for it.

I have to say I have never noticed or thought about this issue on my triton. It seems to have no effect on sail handling I think the only concern is asthetic.

Brock Richardson

[Robert The Gray]

I have found that if my traveller is all the way to leeward the main sheet rest heavily on the life lines, if I hitch the traveler to windward it comes off the lines. The gap in the line system would make lee cloths that much harder to install. I feel the lee cloths can make a cockpit snug in a breezy anchorage. perhaps more so than the dodger because the triton cabin top is quite high and boats tend to tack at anchor causing the wind to come over the sides more often than over the bow.

r

[Robert The Gray]

nathan,
I noticed in your photo that you lead the dinghy painter under your taffrail. Was this a designed use? do you worry about any upward pull on that line? Have you had any chafing problems? I am in the midst of designing my mizzen boomkin and I was curious if you found any challanges to leading lines off the aft deck. I can imagine tying to a point off the stern above the boat, or for a moment towing a higher vessel.

r

[dasein668]

The painter arrangement leaves somethign to be desired for sure. While I think the design of the taffrail kicks-butt in terms of aesthetics, it's not particularly functional.

Chafe has been a problem for the paint, not for the painter. I rounded that after edge over, about 1/2 inch radius so it doesn't seem to chew up the line. The line does munch the paint though. I can't bring myself to put big gaumy chocks up on that taffrail though. I may ultimately end up installing nice integral rail chocks mortised into the toerail back there.

[bcooke]

I think that the notch thing is, well, I'll say it: crazy.

Whew! A refreshing breath of honesty. Okay, I will just drop the whole idea. Somehow I was thinking I was losing some downforce with the mainsheet held up by the lifelines and seeing the sheet bent over the lifelines just bugged me. As for the downforce. Well, that is one more reason for a Garhauer rigid vang I guess. The slot for the sheet would be difficult to engineer for all conditions and it would look screwy no matter how hard I tried to fix it.

Also note that the main isn't even fully out in this picture.

And the traveler is on the windward side where it cannot provide much downforce to begin with. Isn't the purpose of the traveler to get the sheet in a more vertical plane under the boom so it can pull down and straighten the leech?

I think everyone would miss the nicely led mainsheet on your system because they would be too busy trying to figure out why the life lines were so screwy.

Okay two votes for being crazy.

I think mid boom sheeting has a lot going for it.

True. And one very big bad thing in my case. It would require a lot of re-engineering of everything else and since the current sheeting system works, I am loath to change it.

So why do permanent gates interfere with the winter cover more than the stanchions? Aren't they at the same height? Are we talking the same things? When I say gates I am thinking of a stanchion with an extra leg thrust out at an angle to provide more support to the stanchion in the fore and aft plane (longitudinal?) I would use these gates so that with the lifeline at the cockpit disconnected the lifeline forward of the gate would still be under tension.

Thanks.

-Britton

[dasein668]

And the traveler is on the windward side where it cannot provide much downforce to begin with. Isn't the purpose of the traveler to get the sheet in a more vertical plane under the boom so it can pull down and straighten the leech?

Actually, the traveller is centerline, which is where I tend to leave it when cruising in moderate conditions with the family aboard. As has been mentioned in previous posts, the short throw of the Triton traveller means that in most conditions the improvement in sail shape is minimal. I use it when I'm sailing alone mostly, and in very light airs to maximize sail shape, or heavy airs to help spill extra wind if I havent' reefed enough and I'm on my way in.

So why do permanent gates interfere with the winter cover more than the stanchions? Aren't they at the same height? Are we talking the same things? When I say gates I am thinking of a stanchion with an extra leg thrust out at an angle to provide more support to the stanchion in the fore and aft plane (longitudinal?) I would use these gates so that with the lifeline at the cockpit disconnected the lifeline forward of the gate would still be under tension.

Yes, we're talking about the same thing. If you use stanchions that are also permanently mounted, they will cause the same troubles. On Dasein, my stanchions can be removed from the bases, while my gate cannot. With the stanchions (and gates, if possible) removed, you can have a steeper, smoother tent which will shed snow better. (Southern types can just ignore us northern wackos).

[bcooke]

Aha! So that is why I have those little screws at the bases of my stanchions. Those little screws that are forever loosening up, causing the stanchion to wobble. And I thought they were just cheaply made...

I have always had a 'working' tent over my boat so the stanchions actually help in the construction. I never thought about the day when I could just put the boat to bed for the winter and forget about it until spring :-)

With the small traveler throw I suppose one could almost go back to a fixed block instead of a sliding traveler and save a bit of gadgetry without sacrificing much performance.

-Britton

[dasein668]

With the small traveler throw I suppose one could almost go back to a fixed block instead of a sliding traveler and save a bit of gadgetry without sacrificing much performance.

Absolutely.

[bcooke]

But travelers look much cooler :-)

[Figment]

Depends on your approach to light-air sailing. If your tendency is to fire up the iron when the breeze drops below 8kts, then no, you won't miss the traveler.

Short though the traveler is, it's useful for milking that little extra bit of mojo out of a light breeze. Light sheet, traveler way up, lotsa twist in the sail.

[The Good Goose]

Britton
On my triton I mostly use the traveler when close hauled. In this situation the mainsheet would be far enough inboard that it wouldn't interfere with the life line. I just realized after rereading your post that my life lines don't go aft to my stern pulpit. Probably explains why it hasn't been an issue for me. They aren't there.

As for your removable stanchions. They can be made much more stable by drilling and through bolting. If you use an acorn nylock for the nut and align your bolts fore and aft you can keep them from snagging stuff. Those allen screws are useless and dangerous. I have twice had pulpits come loose when I was leaning on them very scary.

One solution to your problem could be using two gate posts on each side. Set them close together where you plan to enter. then use two shorter life lines to go aft to the stern pulpit. Have a pelican hook on the top one and unclip it if you are on a point of sail where the sheeting angle is particularly annoying.

Sorry about piling on. I didn't mean to be so flip. You raised a valid concern.

Brock Richardson

[bcooke]

Sorry about piling on. I didn't mean to be so flip. You raised a valid concern.

Oh, I have pretty thick skin and I expected worse. Good thing Tim is too busy with his house/barn/work/tractor projects to check in as often. I knew it was a far out question but it has been bugging me and the forum has just been so quiet lately that I thought I should do my bit to keep it alive :-)

Now I remember thinking about a short removable lifeline where the sheet passes over. Somewhere in my head I dropped that idea overboard when I realized my stern pulpit is just made up of screwed together pieces and I could adjust it however I wanted. I should have stuck with Plan 'A'.

I agree that those little set screws are a poor design. I know that someday I am going to lean into a stanchion and I will gain a surprised look in my face as I go over the side clutching the top half. That is why I was thinking I would replace the stanchions with a one piece welded design. Maybe I will try the bolt trick first. You may have just saved me a few hundred bucks. First beer is on me :-)

I just realized after rereading your post that my life lines don't go aft to my stern pulpit

Do you have any pictures posted that show your lifeline setup?

If your tendency is to fire up the iron when the breeze drops below 8kts, then no, you won't miss the traveler.

Actually. I wake up the the fire breather when the wind goes over 8 knots. Sailing is scary when the boat leans over like that!

-Britton

[bcooke]

Oh, and Nathan, you are sick, torturing that little elephant like that!

[dasein668]

Oh, I have pretty thick skin. . .

He'd have to in order to cruise with Tim and I for over a week in that pit..er...I mean boat of his! ;-P

That is why I was thinking I would replace the stanchions with a one piece welded design. Maybe I will try the bolt trick first.

Works great, and I think the ability to remove said stanchions is a plus. Versitility, baby!

[dasein668]

Oh, and Nathan, you are sick, torturing that little elephant like that!

Gavin sucks on his ears when he sleeps. Trust me, it would be cruel and unusual not to have washed him and hung him out to dry!

[The Good Goose]

Britton
I don't have a picture of my life line set up but it is very basic.
the line goes forward from the bow pulpit, through the two stanchions and terminates at a pad eye on the deck near the winches. I always thought I would change it. some one gave me a stern pulpit so I installed that and with it in place I feel pretty secure without the lines going all the way aft. The only times I have slipped or felt uneasy on the boat have been forward of the cockpit or standing on the stern deck. with this set-up those areas are covered. My life line can also switch position on the bow pulpit from high to low. I like this for racing as we don't have to skirt the Genoa. I always say I'll switch it back for cruising but I never do it except on long trips.

Brock Richardson

[Tim]

Britton,

I'm glad you were so easily convinced to drop your notion of the notched lifelines for your mainsheet. It saves me the need to heap abuse on you! :<)

Seriously, that design would have been frought with problems, and was a mainsheet tangle waiting to happen. I could just see the tackle hooked tightly around a stanchion in your groove during a jibe, or some other maneuver. Bad idea.

Besides, by the time you let the main far enough out to where the sheet interferes (so to speak) with the lifeline, there's little downforce left in the sheet at all. (Which is why you need a vang.)

Regarding the lame setscrews in stanchion bases: I replaced most of mine a couple years ago with pan head machine screws, which I thread through the same holes and into the stanchions. Through bolts would be ideal actually. Note, however, that the setscrews, by pushing against the stanchion tube instead of into it, help tighten the fit in the base. So I only installed one machine screw at each location (to hold the stanchion securely), and left one setscrew to tighten the stanchion in its base. The screw alone still allows wiggle motion, though the stanchion can't pull out.

Through bolts would accomplish both aspects, BTW.

[MikeD]

A quick question:

When adding a stern pulpit (pushpit), are "gated" stanchions necessary? Could I get by with well-bedded and backed standard stanchions immediately forward of the pushpit? It seems the only real need for the gated ones would be when the life-lines are unhooked, which is usually at the dock or boarding and things aren't too tense...

[Tim]

The main purpose of a brace is to oppose the tension of the life lines leading away from the opening, when the gate portion is slackened. The proper lifeline setup includes stops (or end terminals, ideally) at the opening side of the gate stanchion so that the lifelines do not slacken on either side of the gate opening; this is unsightly and unsafe. So the brace holds the stanchion in position better and prevents the 2' moment arm from tweaking the base. Lifelines are supposed to be tight, or they're almost more of a hazard than help, so the potential is there for some pretty significant force at the top of the stanchion when the gate is opened. Loose lifelines have no place on a boat, ever.

The braces also add some support to the gate stanchion when one is using it to pull themselves up from a dinghy or swimming ladder. It's best to not pull on the stanchion, but let's face it: everyone does.

If you have those lifelines that fully slacken when the gate is released...well, I guess the concerns above don't apply. I don't like this system, particularly when it's so easily overcome with the proper lifeline installation and hardware, but it's pretty common. I'd recommend having lifelines that terminate on each side of the gate (or the one side, as applicable), along with braced stanchions at the opening.

Gate braces that slip right over existing 1" stanchion tubes are available; this is what I have. A fully welded 1" tubular gate brace is better, but these little ones acheive the necessary results. West Marine's price for these silly add-on braces is ridiculously high, though. ($75) While they weren't that expensive when I bought mine 5 years ago, I wouldn't go that route again--I'd choose a fully welded brace with additional deck base--but I guess these afteremarket ones are less expensive than the requisite stanchion/base/brace assembly that would be needed otherwise, and do the job adequately.

[MikeD]

West Marine's price for these silly add-on braces is ridiculously high, though. ($75) While they weren't that expensive when I bought mine 5 years ago, I wouldn't go that route again--I'd choose a fully welded brace with additional deck base--but I guess these afteremarket ones are less expensive than the requisite stanchion/base/brace assembly that would be needed otherwise

Much less expensive apparently. My quote from TiQ: "Gate stanchions with bases start at $175.00 a piece."

Ouch. I may need to look into the "add-on" pieces, although I still need the 2 stanchions to "gate" also... hmmm.

[Ceasar Choppy]

Try Garhauer.

http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=59

The gates are about $30.

[Tim]

Much less expensive apparently. My quote from TiQ: "Gate stanchions with bases start at $175.00 a piece."

Considering that includes the brace, base, and stanchion tube, that's not bad when compared to a thin add-on piece alone for $75, not including the stanchion or base.

The Garhauer gate brace, similar (identical, more or less) to the Schaefer one I mentioned, is only $30.25--certainly a better option! Check out the Garhauer stanchion bases and tubes, too.

[MikeD]

Yeah, I saw those! I'm thinking, if I can find one, I could get someone's cast-off Ariel or Commander stanchion (original), if they've upgraded, and add a Garhauer gate.

Although, I suppose stanchions from early Pearsons were probably "standard" for all their boats, huh? Anyone got a couple?

Here's a pic of mine. It has a welded loop at the top and is 24" tall...

[Matt B.]

I actually happen to have a picture of the lifeline gate setup on Firecracker:



Not ideal, but you can see the stanchion is a standard one with an extra loop near the top. The lifeline comes from the bow pulpit back to this stanchion at the end of the cabin, then drops to a fitting on the outside of the hull coaming. It's tight all the way through the line. The gate runs from another stanchion behind the camera on the coaming, a little lower than the foredeck stanchions, and shackles to that loop on the aft side of the stanchion in the picture.

Works well, seems solid (I'm not heavy but I tripped and caught myself on the gate line the other day) and doesn't require a different stanchion.

[MikeD]

That's a creative solution!