I am thinking of a new jib this winter. What are the advantages of a Tri Radial over a panel cut jib? How about fabric? Any one have experience with square weave dacron? Worth the extra money? This sail would be used mostly for racing.
Does any one know the E measurement for a triton 7/8's rigged? I listed mine at 13 but the sailmaker says he saw it as 14. what exactly is the E?
We unfortunatly made the mistake of coming in first in class among the slow boats with spinnakers at our club this fall. We got a nice framed picture of our boat. I wonder how many pictures I could get for $1400.00 ( the cost of a new jib)?
Could there be anything more foolish then trying to make a triton sail fast at great expense to win a picture of it? Probably not but It gets me out sailing every thursday and I almost always have fun. Even in the summer when there is no wind, rusty crew, a good spinnaker set is cause for amazement and we're happy if were not in last place.
Sorry for the digression. Any input on the sail and phrf questions would be greatly appreciated. As to input on the latter question appreciation for it will be determined on a case by case basis:)
Brock
tri radial sails and E Phrf
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The Good Goose
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Tim
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Brock,
I know you received an "E" measurement answer on the Yahoo list, so I won't go into great detail there, but the official specs are 13.0'. The boom itself is usually right around 14' in total length, leaving 12" for adjustment and outhaul tackle--the proper amount.
Good sails are everything, particularly when racing. All things being equal, newer, higher-end sails will pull ahead every time. Of course, in the real world where minute mistakes and changes occur when sailing, all things are never equal, but one does what one can if they want to win the silver (or the photos!).
How competitive is your fleet? What sort of sails are the other competitive boats using? To me, these local conditions dictate, more than anything, what sort of sail you should consider. Then, go for the best sail that is commensurate with those that the other boats in the fleet use. I think there is little or no benefit to the ultimate racing materials (like carbon or Kevlar or Spectra or whatever else they're using) on a Triton, as these sails just won't make enough of a difference. But the very best in Dacron certainly is well worth it, in my opinion.
Frankly, this goes for cruising as well.
There's no doubt that the higher end fabrics, rather than just plain Dacron, will provide you with a better, faster sail--at least to start. Fabrics like square-weave Dacron, Mylar, Kevlar, carbon, etc. all are stiffer and lighter, and hold their shape better initially, which is why they are favored for racing sails. However, it's important to note that these fancier sails lose a lot of their advantage in a relatively short time--a couple seasons or so--as the material starts to break down and loses that initial crispness. The sail still looks good, but simply doesn't have that performance edge any longer.
I feel that with many of the racing fabrics, a competitive sailor has to be prepared to buy a new sail every couple seasons or so to remain at the top of the game. These sails require careful handling as well, as sloppy folding will accelerate the breakdown of the materials' advantage.
A tri-radial sail is a better cut. The multiple small panels, aligned to the general stress pattern of the sail, help hold the sail's designed shape much better than a crosscut. For racing, I wouldn't hesitate to specify tri-radial, and I'd be surprised if a sailmaker didn't also recommend this cut. They cost a little more, but not a lot more. Regardless of your ultimate material choice, I suspect that tri-radial is the way to go.
Beware, though: once you get this spiffy new tri-radial genoa, you're of course going to want a new mainsail to match!
I think for a new sail that you know will be used for racing, you ought to go for a very nice sail--sort of a toy, if nothing else. Nice sails are worth their weight in gold, if only for your own pleasure.
I specified a tri-radial Dacron mainsail for the Daysailor rig, and was very pleased with the look of the sail. It was only flown a few times in a very short season, but I wouldn't hesitate to go tri-radial on all new sails, even for cruising.
I know you received an "E" measurement answer on the Yahoo list, so I won't go into great detail there, but the official specs are 13.0'. The boom itself is usually right around 14' in total length, leaving 12" for adjustment and outhaul tackle--the proper amount.
Good sails are everything, particularly when racing. All things being equal, newer, higher-end sails will pull ahead every time. Of course, in the real world where minute mistakes and changes occur when sailing, all things are never equal, but one does what one can if they want to win the silver (or the photos!).
How competitive is your fleet? What sort of sails are the other competitive boats using? To me, these local conditions dictate, more than anything, what sort of sail you should consider. Then, go for the best sail that is commensurate with those that the other boats in the fleet use. I think there is little or no benefit to the ultimate racing materials (like carbon or Kevlar or Spectra or whatever else they're using) on a Triton, as these sails just won't make enough of a difference. But the very best in Dacron certainly is well worth it, in my opinion.
Frankly, this goes for cruising as well.
There's no doubt that the higher end fabrics, rather than just plain Dacron, will provide you with a better, faster sail--at least to start. Fabrics like square-weave Dacron, Mylar, Kevlar, carbon, etc. all are stiffer and lighter, and hold their shape better initially, which is why they are favored for racing sails. However, it's important to note that these fancier sails lose a lot of their advantage in a relatively short time--a couple seasons or so--as the material starts to break down and loses that initial crispness. The sail still looks good, but simply doesn't have that performance edge any longer.
I feel that with many of the racing fabrics, a competitive sailor has to be prepared to buy a new sail every couple seasons or so to remain at the top of the game. These sails require careful handling as well, as sloppy folding will accelerate the breakdown of the materials' advantage.
A tri-radial sail is a better cut. The multiple small panels, aligned to the general stress pattern of the sail, help hold the sail's designed shape much better than a crosscut. For racing, I wouldn't hesitate to specify tri-radial, and I'd be surprised if a sailmaker didn't also recommend this cut. They cost a little more, but not a lot more. Regardless of your ultimate material choice, I suspect that tri-radial is the way to go.
Beware, though: once you get this spiffy new tri-radial genoa, you're of course going to want a new mainsail to match!
I think for a new sail that you know will be used for racing, you ought to go for a very nice sail--sort of a toy, if nothing else. Nice sails are worth their weight in gold, if only for your own pleasure.
I specified a tri-radial Dacron mainsail for the Daysailor rig, and was very pleased with the look of the sail. It was only flown a few times in a very short season, but I wouldn't hesitate to go tri-radial on all new sails, even for cruising.
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Figment
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How does your club handle rating adjustments? Are you adjusted forever, or do they just hit you with 20 seconds for the next series (a la Mudhead)?
How disciplined do you realistically think you'll be in the use of new sails? Will you bother to have a racing suit and a cruising suit, or will sails be sails? Changing the main every time out is a little nutty, but I know lots of guys that have "fair weather race only" foresails.
Tim's advice is spot-on. Tri-radial makes sense, but the fabric choice will need to reflect the intensity of your competition. Personally, I'd rather have an excellent, attentive sailmaker using mediocre material than have an out of town discount house put together a kevlar mess. Spend the money on the skill and after-sale service, not the material.
Out of curiosity, what other boats are in your class?
I ask because both of the fleets I race in are all too fast to make triton racing fun. The highest phrf is somewhere around 240, the next highest is 215, etc. Racing a 270 boat against a bunch of 180s is less than ideal, no matter how the math works out in the end.
How disciplined do you realistically think you'll be in the use of new sails? Will you bother to have a racing suit and a cruising suit, or will sails be sails? Changing the main every time out is a little nutty, but I know lots of guys that have "fair weather race only" foresails.
Tim's advice is spot-on. Tri-radial makes sense, but the fabric choice will need to reflect the intensity of your competition. Personally, I'd rather have an excellent, attentive sailmaker using mediocre material than have an out of town discount house put together a kevlar mess. Spend the money on the skill and after-sale service, not the material.
Out of curiosity, what other boats are in your class?
I ask because both of the fleets I race in are all too fast to make triton racing fun. The highest phrf is somewhere around 240, the next highest is 215, etc. Racing a 270 boat against a bunch of 180s is less than ideal, no matter how the math works out in the end.
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The Good Goose
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this is the competition
:4 Discards:1 To count:3 Ratings:PHRFTOT Entries:5
Rank Fleet Boat Name Boat Type Sail No Helm Rating FMW1 FMW2 FMW3 FMW4 Nett
9/1 09/08 9/15 9/22
1 D Good Goose Pearson Triton 522 Richardson 250 1 2 1 3 4
2 D Impulsive Able Poitin 24 20512 Ray 195 2 1 3 2 5
3 D Swan Song Pearson 26 1607 Johnson 213 3 3 2 1 6
4 D Ginny Marie Sabre 28-1 4 Couture 216 4 4 4 4 12
5 D Contact Sailstar 321 Padula 228 5 5 5 5 15
the phrf for the sailstar is wrong it should be 304 or something like that. We are usually fourth over the line. Thank goodness for the sailstar it keeps us from DFL often. The fall was breezy 6-10 which is a pretty competitive wind for us.
We are no where near as competetive as the mudheads. I think one of the slow boats in the mud heads had Kevlar sails when I raced. The key for us is to minimize tacks work really hard on the windward legs to maximize speed. Hope the wind doesn't die downwind . We are often 1st or second in class around the first mark only to watch as the fleet pulls ahead. We are pretty close to the pearson 26 if there is a decent breeze . There is a C&C REdwing that usually races as well.
Does Sanibel still race? We could occasionly beat them but usually finished in the bottom third of the slow boats. We were almost always the last boat over the line. Jolly Mon used to slay us. I think our best finish was second or third. Probably due to some weird windshift on the route the faster boats took.
That being said we had agreat crew and we had a blast.
Brock
:4 Discards:1 To count:3 Ratings:PHRFTOT Entries:5
Rank Fleet Boat Name Boat Type Sail No Helm Rating FMW1 FMW2 FMW3 FMW4 Nett
9/1 09/08 9/15 9/22
1 D Good Goose Pearson Triton 522 Richardson 250 1 2 1 3 4
2 D Impulsive Able Poitin 24 20512 Ray 195 2 1 3 2 5
3 D Swan Song Pearson 26 1607 Johnson 213 3 3 2 1 6
4 D Ginny Marie Sabre 28-1 4 Couture 216 4 4 4 4 12
5 D Contact Sailstar 321 Padula 228 5 5 5 5 15
the phrf for the sailstar is wrong it should be 304 or something like that. We are usually fourth over the line. Thank goodness for the sailstar it keeps us from DFL often. The fall was breezy 6-10 which is a pretty competitive wind for us.
We are no where near as competetive as the mudheads. I think one of the slow boats in the mud heads had Kevlar sails when I raced. The key for us is to minimize tacks work really hard on the windward legs to maximize speed. Hope the wind doesn't die downwind . We are often 1st or second in class around the first mark only to watch as the fleet pulls ahead. We are pretty close to the pearson 26 if there is a decent breeze . There is a C&C REdwing that usually races as well.
Does Sanibel still race? We could occasionly beat them but usually finished in the bottom third of the slow boats. We were almost always the last boat over the line. Jolly Mon used to slay us. I think our best finish was second or third. Probably due to some weird windshift on the route the faster boats took.
That being said we had agreat crew and we had a blast.
Brock
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Figment
- Damned Because It's All Connected
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- Boat Name: Triton
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SANIBEL still races, and when they don't take some huge gamble that doesn't pay off, they do very well. They actually took a bullet late in the summer series when the wind shifted 40 degrees and the windward-leeward became a fetch-reach. Hard to beat a centerboard boat on a day like that. And of course it's one of the prettiest boats in the fleet.
JOLLY MON still slays most of the class. I think that may be about to change, though. Twice this past summer we rolled right over the Fleet Measurer's boat (not realizing it was him until too late), which rates 15 seconds faster. Geordie's expecting an adjustment in the spring.
I think they should just move JOLLY MON up into class 2, though. Being the most weatherly boat in the first class to start gives a HUGE advantage when racing on corrected time, because we rarely if ever have to contend with any kind of dirty air on the first leg. Personally, I think it would be nice to have some company at the mark roundings once in a while.
JOLLY MON still slays most of the class. I think that may be about to change, though. Twice this past summer we rolled right over the Fleet Measurer's boat (not realizing it was him until too late), which rates 15 seconds faster. Geordie's expecting an adjustment in the spring.
I think they should just move JOLLY MON up into class 2, though. Being the most weatherly boat in the first class to start gives a HUGE advantage when racing on corrected time, because we rarely if ever have to contend with any kind of dirty air on the first leg. Personally, I think it would be nice to have some company at the mark roundings once in a while.
Well, there you go. Expensive materials don't guarantee success on the racecourse.[/quote]I think one of the slow boats in the mud heads had Kevlar sails when I raced.
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Figment
- Damned Because It's All Connected
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um, yeah. Probably should've explained "mudhead" for the masses....
www.mudhead.org
The Mystic River Mudhead Sailing Association is a fantastic club-with-no-clubhouse, oriented entirely to on-water activities, primarily focused on racing. I don't know of any other clubs that can get 60+ boats out for a race on a weekday night.
Though we missed each other by a year (I think) Brock used to race GOOD GOOSE against the boat that I crew on Wednesday nights, JOLLY MON.
www.mudhead.org
The Mystic River Mudhead Sailing Association is a fantastic club-with-no-clubhouse, oriented entirely to on-water activities, primarily focused on racing. I don't know of any other clubs that can get 60+ boats out for a race on a weekday night.
Though we missed each other by a year (I think) Brock used to race GOOD GOOSE against the boat that I crew on Wednesday nights, JOLLY MON.
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Tim
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So true. Nothing beats a really good sailor on the racecourse. There are some local guys here who could win (and have won) sailing some of the biggest PsOS you've ever seen.Figment wrote:Expensive materials don't guarantee success on the racecourse.
And there are some big spenders who just can't get across the finish line anywhere near the top.
Skill first, boat preparation second, fancy-dancy stuff last.
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Tim
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Absolutely beautifully. It makes no difference. Higher-tech materials (Kevlar, carbon, etc.) will last less long when subjected to the rigors of furling on a headstay (rather than being babied by careful folding and storage), but that's not an issue for cruisers who will choose Dacron regardless.How well does a tri-radial jib work on a furler...
When thinking about furling headsails, many people's thoughts seem to be still stuck in 1975, when furlers were junk and couldn't hold a sail shape to save their lives. Today's furlers--and the sails thereunto attached--are stellar performers.
Cruising boats deserve the best sails for their intended service too. The notion that somehow cruisers should--and could--get by with less is ridiculous to me.
My future sails (for cruising) will be all tri-radial.
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The Good Goose
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"you guys make racing seem like fun"
I think the things that make racing fun are having a fun crew and a low key skipper. My Idea is that on a rainy thursday night the last thing I would do is go sailing. When I race I do go out and I almost always have fun. I think when it starts getting competetive and you care more about winning then having fun its time to get out.
Brock
I think the things that make racing fun are having a fun crew and a low key skipper. My Idea is that on a rainy thursday night the last thing I would do is go sailing. When I race I do go out and I almost always have fun. I think when it starts getting competetive and you care more about winning then having fun its time to get out.
Brock
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Shark
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I think all sailors can benefit from a bit of racing experience, especially newbies. There's nothing like racing to teach you the basics of sail trim, boat handling and rules of the road in a hurry! It also makes you go out and sail under less than ideal weather conditions which will further add to your level of confidence. I agree with an earlier comment that attitude is everything. The right combination of captain, crew and type of racing is paramount. If it stops being fun, do something else.
Lyman
Lyman