PYI or Pack?

[Quetzalsailor]

Our shaftlog is clearly in need of attention, it desired snugging up several times this past summer.

Given that this thing is in never-never land, and the boat is on the hard, what do the sages think about the alternatives of the PYI shaftseal, repacking with conventional packing, repacking with one or another of the teflons or putty packings?

Folks may recall that I've blathered about the pleasures of reaching the packing nuts and we've discussed the sorts of wrenches useful for the purpose. I found the oddly-angled pipe wrench at a Wilmington DE store; it's a favorite of sprinkler installers and is made by Rigid, and in several sizes, too.

[Rigel]

I would vote for conventional packing. Simple and affordable.

Is this the wrench you mention?

[Bluenose]

Do you have an online source for this tool?

Thanks, Bill

[barrybrown]

While I'm certainly no sage on the subject, I used a PYI on my last boat for years without a problem and the new ones don't require burping when you launch. I just bought one for this boat, mine is also in an awkward location and it is a plus not to have to deal with a stuffing box. I have also used the dripless packing but not long enough to assess the effect on the shaft.

Barry

[Tim]

My feeling is it doesn't matter that much whether you go with the PYI bellows-type or a traditionally-packed stuffing box, but either way, you need access to it for inspection and emergency situations. Use whichever type of stuffing box you prefer.

I'd work first on improving access to ensure proper maintenance versus choosing something that might encourage neglect.

Personally I come down on the traditional stuffing box side of things. Use one of the new high-performance packings, though there's nothing wrong with the traditional waxed flax either.

Stuffing boxes (of any sort) only fail because of neglect. So inspect it regularly.

[Rachel]

My preference is for a traditional stuffing box. I've heard/read good things about the black, Gore packing (shaped like flax), but have not used it.

That wrench is called an "adjustable offset hex wrench." I think I've heard it called something else, too, but I can't think of it (just used one not too long ago to tighten the pipe-to-hose fittings on seacocks -- very handy).

Here is one source:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/64535 ... Hex_Wrench



Otherwise, what about a thin, offset pump wrench?



Rachel

[Quetzalsailor]

Glad someone came up with the source for the wrench! One negative is that the cast iron model is, predictably, quite heavy. Rigid makes an aluminum version for about 2.5x the money. I did not spring for it on the theory that you only need to fiddle once a year with a properly packed seal, and I do not yet know whether the thing is really small enough.

Rigid also makes these wrenches with the threaded bit at 90 degrees to the handle; now, that really looks odd!

I chatted the PYI around at last Saturday's marina boatyard party, before the booze was speaking louder. The techie has seen several over time. One failed almost instantly from 'failure to burp'; the older models did not always fill full of water because of shaft slope or cutless configuration. The newer models have an extra piece of plumbing. He also said that you can only expect about 10 years out of the bearing surfaces.

[Bluenose]

My preference is for a traditional stuffing box. I've heard/read good things about the black, Gore packing (shaped like flax), but have not used it.

That wrench is called an "adjustable offset hex wrench." I think I've heard it called something else, too, but I can't think of it (just used one not too long ago to tighten the pipe-to-hose fittings on seacocks -- very handy).

Here is one source:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/64535 ... Hex_Wrench



Otherwise, what about a thin, offset pump wrench?



Rachel

Thanks Rachel, the offset pump wrench is just what I am looking for.

Cheers, Bill

[Peter]

One negative is that the cast iron model is, predictably, quite heavy.

All the better to clobber the stuborn lock nut with, and show it who's really in charge!

I've heard/read good things about the black, Gore packing (shaped like flax), but have not used it.

Is that the same as this stuff ?
They're offering free samples, in case anyone is interested.

[Skipper599]

... That certainly looks like a good gland packing ... but I think the offer of FREE samples is aimed at industrial users who are likely to purchase large amounts. I doubt very much that anyone owning a sailboat are about to receive a couple of feet of this revolutionary packing ... heck, you'd never have to buy anymore. ... Anyhooooo, I think I might give it a try because, my shaft and log are brand new.

... I have a real problem I need to deal with, the access to the shaft log is through the hatch in the cockpit sole. The problem being, the hatch is not very wide, and the log is a couple of feet below the surface of the sole. Meaning, I need to stretch my arms another 15" in order to install and/or adjust the packing.

... I was considering making some custom built wrenches to perform maintenance adjustments but, the ad for this product is saying: Install it, make one, possibly two adjustments after initial run-in and then forget it ... for as much as ten years. ... At 76 years of age, that time frame will probably exceed what sailing time is left to me.

[Rachel]

Peter,

Yes, that's the stuff. I haven't used it (yet), but I've heard/read good things about it. A negative I'm aware of is that it is a bit prone to fraying when you cut it, so you need to use a sharp blade and take care.

Rachel

[Quetzalsailor]

Y'all may recall that I've bought Gore's teflon packing for the burner valves on our alcohol stove. There are packing formulations for all sorts of applications. McMaster, as usual, has everything.

Yes, it tends to unwind at the cuts; the stuff I used was flat strands wrapped spirally. Wind it back and stuff it. Probably the shaft seal is tougher, and the cuts more important, since all the instructions speak to three rings neatly butted rather than a spiral wrap three thicknesses deep.

[boatsnh]

I've used the Gore packing since I rebuilt my 4-107 and installed a new aquamet shaft 2 years ago. I had the new shaft & new rudder post made by Rose's marine in massachusetts. These folks make shafts for the ferrys, big fishing boats, and lots of recreational boats and have a wonderful machine shop - They know their stuff. I asked Frankie Rose (he owns the place) about"dripless" stuffing boxes. He made the comment that a conventional stuffing box will never fail with no warning and have worked for years. And I already owned my current stuffing box - the price was right. He mentioned that he has had a lot of folks use the Gore packing and like it -so I tried it. They sell it by the foot off big spools. Easy to cut to size - yep, use a sharp razor - and easy to install. Run it a bit loose, then tightened it down 'till the drips stop, and back off a bit. It stays cool to touch after 4 hrs @ hullspeed motoring and barely drips at all. If you look on the web you can find that the stuff is spec'd for commercial pumps that may run 24/7 with no leaking for a couple years - sounds good to me.

[Ceasar Choppy]

+1 on the Gore packing. No drips!

My last boat had the PYI dripless which was nice-- mostly because it was a pain to get to. This boat, the stuffung box is very easy to get to, so when I replaced the shaft and old stuffing box, $75 for a bronze box was a no-brainer. And the gore packing is a bonus.

[Clint]

My preference is for a traditional stuffing box. I've heard/read good things about the black, Gore packing (shaped like flax), but have not used it.
Rachel

Is this the synthetic packing that you speak of?

[Oscar]

Installed a PYI on my Catalina. It was nice and, indeed, drip free. Still, a microscopic amount of water works its way through when turning. Normally this is not enough to be noted, but I did some long (1000 mile) trips off shore and sometimes had to motor for as much as 48 hours. A very fine mist sprays around, not visible to the eye. Again, normally you don't notice this, but in salt water it leaves behind.....salt. A coating of it surrounding the packing, as much as a foot away. So, after long periods of motoring I would have to hose down the engine compartment to get the salt out.

[Rachel]

Clint,

Yep, the Gore packing is the synthetic that I'd like to try. My "experience" with it is limited to research only, but what I've read and heard have made me want to try it. (Haven't yet though.)

Rachel

PS: What I haven't checked into yet is which of the similar-looking black packings are the actual Gore, and which are not, and whether it matters. There is one with a similar name that I'm not sure about.

[boatsnh]

All of "the black stuff" is not the same. Before I packed mine with the "Gore" brand, I thought I'd order some over the web - I got a small spool of 25 feet - was going to share with brothers/friends and have spares ( I like spares). I was assured the packing was "the same as Gore". well, it was a no go. Gore packing is very hard to the touch, it's not a soft braid - it's also woven into a defined square shape. The other packing was a much looser braid and was woven "oval" in shape. I sent it back, got my $ back and bought a couple feet of it from rose marine in Gloucester Ma. I have seen a decent looking "black" packing at Hamilton Marine in Portland - It did not say gore, but looked pretty good.....That said, I'd be inclined to go for the real Mcoy and not have any second thoughts...Lot's of better places to save a buck.
Mike

[Rachel]

I agree - best to get the real thing. Thanks for confirming that.

On some of these though, it was hard to tell if it was the real thing or not. One would have to call and check (whereas it should be clear without doing that).

R.

(Can you tell I miss being a parts person? :D)

[Quetzalsailor]

Oscar, I suggest you give PYI a call, or re-read the instructions. I recall the instructions for the PYI that I installed in the Morgan 27, years ago, said that the fine spray was expected on first start up after installation, as it polished the surfaces. But that afterwards, if any leaking or spray was noted, to tighten up on the location of the bit on the shaft (slide it to compress the bellows a bit more). Mine never leaked a drop, nor sprayed, nor misted: very satisfactory in a boat that did not have a bilge!

[Oscar]

Oscar, I suggest you give PYI a call, or re-read the instructions.

READ THE INSTRUCTIONS? ARE YOU......never mind, the boat is sold. ;-)

[Quetzalsailor]

Yeah, I know; it takes all the fun out of it. But, when all else fails...

I got teased something awful by a Florida redneck when he saw me reading the instructions while rebuilding the Carter carburetor in my '53 Studebaker. (Single barrel, down draft, otherwise similar to the simple carburetor for an A4.)

[Quetzalsailor]

Work continues and with a bit of progress. I'm most likely to stick with the packing rather than go for the PYI.

I've got the nut off the packing and backed it away, but there's not enough shaft to back it up enough to access the packing for removal. There's about 3/4" clearance. So, I've removed the two setscrews from the flange (so I could get the remains of the wire out of 'em and so I would not fret whether I'd withdrawn them enough) and have attempted to pull the shaft out of the boat. There's plenty of room between the prop and the spade rudder. The shaft moved about 3/16" but is resisting further. I blocked the engine from moving aft on its mountings and I've been levering against the forward face of the prop hub and against the heads of the bolts that retain the two castings in place.

I was able to exert enough force to crumple the relatively light aluminum tubing (old folding chair stock) that I used to block the engine. So it seems that more genteel force is in order. Ideas?? I'll make a puller of my own concocting unless you have better ideas!

Having removed the shaft, the key and the nut will drop into never-never land unless Sue is there to catch 'em. That's in the Plan. I could simply repack and reassemble. However, does it not seem reasonable to replace the short length of hose and the four hose clamps? There's maybe 1/16 lateral play in the Cutless bearing. Seems to me that it's a reasonable time to replace it, too.

LeComte suggests that it's easier to pull the two bolts and remove the stern tube castings. The outer casting contains the Cutless, the inner casting has the flange to which the hose is clamped. Seems draconian to me but pressing the cutless out in comfort has something to recommend it, rather than sawing radially in place and beating the slotted shell out. I did this on the Morgan's strut and a great deal of beating was in order! Comments, too, please.

[Quetzalsailor]

Work continues for yet another weekend (in the rain), but with absolutely no progress and with some definite damage to the subject. Needless to say, I'm pleased as punch!

I built a puller which was intended to grab the propellor and be hammer-driven to induce the prop shaft to come out of the flange on the engine. I blocked the engine in place so that the energy did not simply move the engine on its mounts. Flailing with a small, then a larger sledge served only to move the shaft about 1/16". I also tried prying, using a wrecking bar and an 8' 2"x4". That's 96:1 x all a 140lb woman could exert at chest height: enough to flex the 3' x 3/4" bar about 3/4" in 12"! I also tried prying and banging. My wife was catapulted about 20 feet across the gravel lot before coming to rest on her back when the pry tool dissassembled itself.

When the pry came apart, it clipped the prop and took a eighth inch x 1" divot out of the tip of one blade. None of the blocking methods I used to keep the forces off the engine would stay in place for any amount of time and would eventually 'become shorter' with the repeated force. The exterior bronze casting has a couple mushed places. The bolts fastening flange to engine flange were locked with star-type lock washers. These washers are flattened and the bolts became quite loose. At least, there's now no further risk to the thrust bearing on the engine (something I had not thought adequately about).

I bought a couple large gear pullers, and I have another. I intend to build a puller that will pull on the prop and bear on the stern tube casting. If this fails, I have a Sawzall, and will sacrifice the propellor shaft.

As before, any ideas are welcome!

[Tim]

Time to cut your shaft, and your losses.

[Bluenose]

I have been following this thread and working on a packing issue of my own. In my case I got lucky but it didn't look like it was going to go that route. It was Bolero's rudder shaft that was leaking. I tried everything I could think of but nothing was going to separate the rudder head fitting from the shaft so I could access the packing gland nut. It almost seemed like the bronze parts had completely corroded together.





As a last ditch effort it seemed that if the extended portion of the key was ground off there might be room to expose the packing material under the packing nut. My buddy Craig lended his trained metal working hands and the job turned out to be quite simple. I was just able to get enough space under the nut to access the packing material



After 30 minutes of dental work I was in a much better mood.





I quickly ordered new packing material from McMaster Carr and was able to stuff / wrap the new packing 2 1/2 time around the shaft. Seems good so far. But I will be taking my new offset wrench with me during this weeks splashing.

[bcooke]

I started to remove my prop shaft to re-pack the seal and instead wound up with a new shaft, propeller and yes, a freshly re-packed seal. These things happen.

[Oscar]

I spent a day fighting a shaft once.... PB blaster, MAP gas burner....blaster, burner, blaster, burner, then tap it all around (make music as my former Bethlehem Steel welder/fitter friend says) blaster burner, bang bang.....eventually it gave up. A rust seal is tough to break with a puller all at once....you need to chip away at it. And oh, it was 95 degrees in the shade and 120 in the engine room..... Enjoy the fact that it's not hot yet.....blaster, burner, bang bang....patience....you WILL win.

[Bluenose]

I launched Bolero this week and not a drop of water from the rudder shaft. Thanks everyone for the info & sources.

Bill

[Quetzalsailor]

Well! Victory of a sort.

I built a special puller, all very Rube Goldbergish. I bolted two ordinary pullers, without their floppy grabbers, onto a honkin' steel bar such that each forcing screw bore onto the stern tube casting. I then hung a third puller, this time without the forcing screw, over the bar and hooked onto the propellor nut. (The propellor had popped off a moment before, using an ordinary puller, giving me a burst of enthusiasm and adrenalin.) Tightening the two pullers' forcing screws (shimmed by deepwell sockets) lifted the bar and the central puller away from the boat. Inside, I propped the shaft flange away from the internal stern tube casting. Cranked away 'firmly', tapped the flange....nothing!

I had stopped at the Despot on the way down and purchased a stack of new blades for the Sawzall and a stack of 'cutoff' wheels for the 4 1/2" grinder. (I had to buy washers to adapt my 30-year old Craftrsman grinder to accept the cutoff wheels.) Since the grinder was much smaller than the Sawzall and I was worried about work hardening the stainless steel of the shaft, I went with the cutoff wheel and the grinder.

It was all over in about 5 minutes and used only about 1/16" of the diameter of one wheel to cut the 1" dia shaft.

Now, here's the kicker! Some afficionado of permanance had not only put Locktite or similar goo on the flange bolts and the setscrews, and wired the setscrews, but had put the same goo between the propellor shaft and the flange! It would never have come apart; I only hope that I have not damaged the Yanmar.

A few more minutes and I had the stern tube fittings out since I had little enthusiasm for beating the boat and myself up trying to get the cutless bearing out. I delivered the propellor, the shaft and the castings to Rock Hall Propellor, Long Cove Marina, and we shall see how bad the financial 'hit' will be for a thumbfull of Locktite.

[Quetzalsailor]

Well! Victory of another sort.

Only one more victory required to finish the adventure.

I picked up a new propeller shaft, engine flange, newly installed-in-my-casting Cutless bearing, newly repaired and computer-balanced propeller, new hose and clamps, PTFE packing. Total 'hit' was something like $800.00. Rock Hall Propeller was obviously very skillful and professional, if not fast and inexpensive.

Sue and I then spent about 5 hours reinstalling the bits. I am bruised about the torso from lying on the engine for much of that time. Of the many opportunities to drop tools, bolts, lockwashers, nuts and other components into the hollow deep keel, I only kicked a screwdriver into the wet, distant depths. And that I retrieved on the first try with a bit of scrounged dipstick and a stick.

I'm trying to get the splash scheduled for Friday, when I can be there, and we shall see whether all is well or not. (The last victory...)

My biggest remaining question is how one aligns an engine when you have to lie on it to see the flange. It's on flexible engine mounts so lying on it would change the measurements.

[Chris Campbell]

Congratulations! I don't envy you lying on the engine for hours on end, I can tell you! Must be a relief to have it out of the way, and know that it's all in better shape than when you started, though.

As far as aligning the engine goes, how about using an angled mirror on a stick? Won't get you as close to be as accurate, but also won't have the observation interfere with the observed... Binoculars and an angled mirror on a stick?

Cheers,

Chris

[Oscar]

all very Rube Goldbergish.

Hey, I resemble that remark! Rock Hall? LKIII lived at the Sailing Emporium.....

[Quetzalsailor]

I've seen a Tri resembling yours sailing up Swan Creek and moored near Haven Harbor. If it's you, you've sailed past Q on her Swan Creek Marina mooring.

D

[Oscar]

I haven't had it in the water yet, so it wasn't me. (Lady Kay III was an 89 Catalina 42) I know Swan Creek, very pretty.

[Quetzalsailor]

Victory...mostly.

We splashed the boat on Friday morning. Nothing leaked. I paid the yard staff to set the degree of tightness of the packing (which he'd done many times and I never have done a new installation). Put the boat in forward gear: nothing. Put the boat in reverse: something. The shift 'cable' was bent at the clevis. The yardie could shift by hand but the cable would not do it. Had the boat towed to the mooring and I went off to breakfast and back to diagnose the issue with the cable. Turns out that the clevis which should be simply pinned to the shift lever on the Yanmar was rusted solid. After a moments' further fiddling, I broke the cable at the clevis. Off to the supply houses with the cable, and to another for a clevis. Turns out the cable is a perfectly standard Teleflex. No amount of encouragement would free the old clevis from the shift lever so I sawed one leg and prised it off in pieces. I would never have gotten the remains of the old cable out of the clevis anyway. After a total of about 5 hours lying on the engine in 90deg., 90% humidity and dead calm, all was reassembled and working.

The one thing worth passing on is my trick born of desperation for dis- and reassembling the Teleflex cable clamp. Dropping anything in the engine compartment in this old boat is to loose it forever so: The clamp consists of a top transverse bar bent to fit over the cable and includes a dimple to engage the groove in the cable, a bottom transverse bar, a thicker tapped transverse bar, and the two machine screws w/lockwashers. The Yanmar has a mounting bracket with two slotted holes to provide adjustability to the clamp. The three pieces of the clamp span across the cable and the order is: top, bottom, the engines' bracket, the tapped bar; the screws sandwich the collection together in place. Unfortunately, the bracket is integral with an extension to mount some wiring and is smack up against the back of the block with what looks like an oil pressure or temperature transducer, and a fuel line runs past, too. So, I loosened both machine screws, removed one, rotated the two transverse bars so that I could put a cable tie through the unused screwhole and a lanyard through that out to the world. Assembly required ductaping the two cable-tied loose pieces at the correct spacing and orientation since there was no slipping a finger between engine and bracket to align things or to resist the pressure of the screw as it was trying to thread. With one screw in place, untaped and un-cable-clamped the two bars and rotated them into position for the other screw.

So, I'm sweating copiously, running down cheeks and nose, dropping heavy drops onto my work and the transmission, and I see out of the corner of my eye a drop of water land several inches away from the puddle I was creating. I decided that it was coming from somewhere else but was too exhausted then to figure out from where...until the next morning.

[Oscar]

Oh, you're just having a ball aren't you. I can feel the heat and pain sitting here. Is there any way you can rig a piece of canvas or contractor grade garbage bag under where you are working so that dropping stuff isn't as much of a threat?

[Chris Campbell]

Congratulations on splashing! And on surviving another 5 hour ordeal on top of the engine. I feel your pain - except that we don't have that kind of heat up here (almost ever - definitely not in June) But I have spent time on top of the motor of a Northeast 38.

I decided that it was coming from somewhere else but was too exhausted then to figure out from where...until the next morning.

Is this in another thread? What happened the next morning? I can't take the suspense!

C

[Oscar]

He may be in denial for a few...... give it time.

[Quetzalsailor]

With respect to Oscars' comment that wouldn't it be nice to rig a little something to catch fallen objects. Yes it would be a dandy idea, if it were at all possible. Folks servicing winches speak of cutting and installing some sort of tray around the winch to corral the bits (some of these things apparently fall apart when servicing, a little like bicycle hubs dropping their bearings). A fellow in my marina, at the well-lubricated Saturday night party while trading the day's war stories, spoke about rigging a diaper under his binnacle as he replaced his shifter cable.

An even more compelling reason to add a pan under the engine is for oil. Not only would you become aware of a problem but the potential for environmental soiling and a fine would be reduced. Our old boats are more likely to simply pump bilgewater overboard from their deep keels without much ability to control what they pump. An oil-sorber and fixing the leak seems to keep Quetzal in adequate compliance - no sheen.)

If I, when I, pull the Yanmar from Q I'll certainly think hard about how to add a pan, just like they're required in a new boat. As it is now, there are many generally untidy runs of wire, hoses, cobbled together arrangements of engine mounts (the Yanmar is the third engine in the boat), etc., which would have to be reworked just to satisfy my sense of neatness before I could layup some sort of pan. One of the considerations for a pan is how to get enough clearance under it so that recovery of items and cleanliness can happen; the other is to maintain adequate access to what would remain below the pan. When I pulled the A4 from our Morgan 27, I found sludge, tools and assorted pieces that had collected during the first 28 years; I rebuilt the engine beds so that I could keep it dry, if not clean.