Taming the main
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Taming the main
Anybody have lazy jacks installed. I'd like to see your set up... how high are the cheek blocks. Prefer something simple, maybe just 2 legs?
The main is all over the place when it is lowered and is a real bear to lash alone, other ideas or suggestions?
The main is all over the place when it is lowered and is a real bear to lash alone, other ideas or suggestions?
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I have lazy jacks on the Hinckley. They make most things much easier to do. Sometimes when hauling up the main they get in the way, but for the most part my life is better off for them. I also have a "tides" track on the mast, so it's a one hand job pulling up the main. The boat is 37 LOA, and the hoist is around 42' so it's a big main.
Here is the best picture I have of the set up:
This shows the Cheek blocks all the way up at the spreaders on the mast. There are two rings spliced into the jacks where they meet lower down.
It's a simple system, but works very well. The one downside is that you need to ease off on both lazy jacks as you haul up on the main. Anyway, keep in mind that both those pictures are old, so everything is in better shape now.
Noah
Here is the best picture I have of the set up:
This shows the Cheek blocks all the way up at the spreaders on the mast. There are two rings spliced into the jacks where they meet lower down.
It's a simple system, but works very well. The one downside is that you need to ease off on both lazy jacks as you haul up on the main. Anyway, keep in mind that both those pictures are old, so everything is in better shape now.
Noah
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- Tim
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I installed some simple retractable lazy jacks this year, after years and years of avoiding them. I described parts of the installation at the following link, but the page is incomplete. The system is easier to install and to use than it is to describe, so if it's confusing and you want more answers, feel free to ask.
http://www.triton381.com/projects/maint ... st05-2.htm
I am completely sold--I love them. I have only two legs at the bottom, which is enough to capture the large main, though a little spills out at the aft end. After a few sails, I decided that it wasn't worth adding the complexity of an additional leg; the two work just fine. The first leg attaches about 4-5 feet aft of the gooseneck, and the second leg 10' aft of the gooseneck. On my boat, this avoids the after leg interfering at all with the reefing setup; slightly further aft (maybe a foot) would help contain that last part of the sail.
Note that I also have full battens, which may help the sail stay inside the two legs better. I'm not sure. In any event, it would be easy enough to add legs or adjust things a bit to suit any boat. The lengths of the lines are important for this retractable system, to allow everything to come forward along the boom and be tensioned properly. In most of these photos, you can see some excess line at the after leg position; I was still adjusting things and making sure it worked effectively before I cut the excess line off.
The retractable feature means that I don't have to have them out all the time; this makes it easier to raise the main, and also means that I don't have to try and install a sail cover around them.
Once I have raised the main, I also pull out the lazy jacks so that they are in place and ready for use whenever I want to drop the sail; therefore, I sail with the jacks deployed. It just saves a step later, but you could also just deploy them right before you drop the sail. I like to sail into my mooring when possible, and therefore want to be able to drop the main in a pair of seconds without messing with an additional step, so having the jacks deployed and ready for use makes sense for me.
Deploying them is simple. When I retract the two sides, I simply hook them beneath the reefing hooks at the gooseneck, and adjust a control line on the mast to tension the lines. To deploy, I loosen the control line and release the jacks from beneath the hooks, then tighten the line to a pre-determined point and cleat it off again.
The boom lines are also completely removable: they attach to eye straps on the boom with snap hooks. So far, I have found that leaving them hooked to the boom and retracting them beneath the reefing hooks works well and is convenient.
Once the main is down, and I am ready to flake the sail, I retract the jacks and let the sail spill out all over. The jacks remain in the retracted position for storage, and don't affect the sailcover at all.
The way they work is simple. The main leg (from the mast down to each side) is one continuous line, beginning on one side, passing through a cheek block on the mast (located just above the spreaders on my boat--probably about the same as your lower spreaders), down to a small swivel block, back to a cheek block on the other side, and down to the second side of the jacks. At the bottom end of each side is a straight block, through which the two legs to the boom run.
The swivel block mentioned earlier is located on the forward side of the mast and is attached to a control line that runs down to a cleat near deck level. This line is the key: it keeps both sides of the lazy jacks tensioned equally. This is the line that I release or tension to deploy or retract the jacks. I don't seem to have any pictures of this on hand. I'll try and get some pictures of the other components today or tomorrow.
As I have said, the system is easier to build and use than it is to describe. If you're interested in this setup, let me know if you have any questions. I absolutely love having them now, but being able to retract them was very important to me, as I don't like to have them in the way all the time.
http://www.triton381.com/projects/maint ... st05-2.htm
I am completely sold--I love them. I have only two legs at the bottom, which is enough to capture the large main, though a little spills out at the aft end. After a few sails, I decided that it wasn't worth adding the complexity of an additional leg; the two work just fine. The first leg attaches about 4-5 feet aft of the gooseneck, and the second leg 10' aft of the gooseneck. On my boat, this avoids the after leg interfering at all with the reefing setup; slightly further aft (maybe a foot) would help contain that last part of the sail.
Note that I also have full battens, which may help the sail stay inside the two legs better. I'm not sure. In any event, it would be easy enough to add legs or adjust things a bit to suit any boat. The lengths of the lines are important for this retractable system, to allow everything to come forward along the boom and be tensioned properly. In most of these photos, you can see some excess line at the after leg position; I was still adjusting things and making sure it worked effectively before I cut the excess line off.
The retractable feature means that I don't have to have them out all the time; this makes it easier to raise the main, and also means that I don't have to try and install a sail cover around them.
Once I have raised the main, I also pull out the lazy jacks so that they are in place and ready for use whenever I want to drop the sail; therefore, I sail with the jacks deployed. It just saves a step later, but you could also just deploy them right before you drop the sail. I like to sail into my mooring when possible, and therefore want to be able to drop the main in a pair of seconds without messing with an additional step, so having the jacks deployed and ready for use makes sense for me.
Deploying them is simple. When I retract the two sides, I simply hook them beneath the reefing hooks at the gooseneck, and adjust a control line on the mast to tension the lines. To deploy, I loosen the control line and release the jacks from beneath the hooks, then tighten the line to a pre-determined point and cleat it off again.
The boom lines are also completely removable: they attach to eye straps on the boom with snap hooks. So far, I have found that leaving them hooked to the boom and retracting them beneath the reefing hooks works well and is convenient.
Once the main is down, and I am ready to flake the sail, I retract the jacks and let the sail spill out all over. The jacks remain in the retracted position for storage, and don't affect the sailcover at all.
The way they work is simple. The main leg (from the mast down to each side) is one continuous line, beginning on one side, passing through a cheek block on the mast (located just above the spreaders on my boat--probably about the same as your lower spreaders), down to a small swivel block, back to a cheek block on the other side, and down to the second side of the jacks. At the bottom end of each side is a straight block, through which the two legs to the boom run.
The swivel block mentioned earlier is located on the forward side of the mast and is attached to a control line that runs down to a cleat near deck level. This line is the key: it keeps both sides of the lazy jacks tensioned equally. This is the line that I release or tension to deploy or retract the jacks. I don't seem to have any pictures of this on hand. I'll try and get some pictures of the other components today or tomorrow.
As I have said, the system is easier to build and use than it is to describe. If you're interested in this setup, let me know if you have any questions. I absolutely love having them now, but being able to retract them was very important to me, as I don't like to have them in the way all the time.
Last edited by Tim on Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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My inlaws have the same setup. They used pop rivets?no tapping. Machine screws would also work just fine.
Nathan
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Okay, I've got a question for those of you who have the retractable lazy-jacks. I have to preface this by saying that I've only sailed on one boat that had them, and I didn't set them up, so perhaps there was somethning strange about the set-up, or...
At any rate, my big complaint was the noise they made at anchor. You know that one little "whap, whap, whap" that always starts up at 3 a.m. and sends you out in your jammies to silence it? (Then the wind dies so you have to stand out there for ages waiting for the noise to come back so you can find it...) Well, 90% of the time it was some part of those retractable lazy jacks (always retracted when the sail cover was on). Usually when they would hit the aft edge of the spreaders, but sometimes elsewhere on the mast.
Thing was there wasn't a good way to tie them so they'd stay away from the mast. The aft lowers didn't go aft enough to do it very well, so unless we used some elaborate line back to the dodger frame (sure to trip you later and not all that effective anyway due to bad angle) they just whapped merrily away. Just pulling them out to the side wouldn't get them away from the spreader edge (single-spreader rig on a 32' boat).
I'd love to know how to make them work, since six or more holes in the sail cover to lead permanent ones through doesn't really sound that great either. I'd often wondered if they would have worked if they'd been attached to the underside of the spreaders a few inches out from the mast (a suggestion I saw somewhere). Not sure though, as the originals were quite a bit higher than the spreaders at their ultimate height.
Does anyone else suffer the "whapping" problem? How have you solved it?
Oh, and while I'm at it, one more question about them: Tim, I notice you mention that you leave them deployed while sailing. When I tried that they seemed to touch the sail a lot and I worried about chafing in the long term. I think the worst offender was the place where the legs joined. I take it yours don't do this?
--- Rachel
At any rate, my big complaint was the noise they made at anchor. You know that one little "whap, whap, whap" that always starts up at 3 a.m. and sends you out in your jammies to silence it? (Then the wind dies so you have to stand out there for ages waiting for the noise to come back so you can find it...) Well, 90% of the time it was some part of those retractable lazy jacks (always retracted when the sail cover was on). Usually when they would hit the aft edge of the spreaders, but sometimes elsewhere on the mast.
Thing was there wasn't a good way to tie them so they'd stay away from the mast. The aft lowers didn't go aft enough to do it very well, so unless we used some elaborate line back to the dodger frame (sure to trip you later and not all that effective anyway due to bad angle) they just whapped merrily away. Just pulling them out to the side wouldn't get them away from the spreader edge (single-spreader rig on a 32' boat).
I'd love to know how to make them work, since six or more holes in the sail cover to lead permanent ones through doesn't really sound that great either. I'd often wondered if they would have worked if they'd been attached to the underside of the spreaders a few inches out from the mast (a suggestion I saw somewhere). Not sure though, as the originals were quite a bit higher than the spreaders at their ultimate height.
Does anyone else suffer the "whapping" problem? How have you solved it?
Oh, and while I'm at it, one more question about them: Tim, I notice you mention that you leave them deployed while sailing. When I tried that they seemed to touch the sail a lot and I worried about chafing in the long term. I think the worst offender was the place where the legs joined. I take it yours don't do this?
--- Rachel
- Tim
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That was a potential concern of mine, too. Initial results, in the minimal time I have managed to be on the boat, seem to indicate that I can set them up tightly enough to avoid the slap, but I guess I'll see how it is when I go cruising.Rachel wrote:At any rate, my big complaint was the noise they made at anchor. You know that one little "whap, whap, whap" that always starts up at 3 a.m. and sends you out in your jammies to silence it?
I don't think slapping on the spreaders will be a problem in my case, as the jacks only extent a couple inches above the spreader, so if they're tight there shouldn't be enough room for them to slap there.
I should add that I don't have a problem with external halyards slapping at night either, at least most of the time. Setting things up tightly seems to take care of this.
I suppose this would be an issue for passagemaking and long-term. There is some rubbing on the lower block at the top of the legs. Honestly, with only three sails under my belt in this epically pathetic season to date, I can't say I have enough data to determine whether I should add some chafe gear (leather) or not. But I agree that chafe is a potential issue.Rachel wrote:Oh, and while I'm at it, one more question about them: Tim, I notice you mention that you leave them deployed while sailing. When I tried that they seemed to touch the sail a lot and I worried about chafing in the long term. I think the worst offender was the place where the legs joined. I take it yours don't do this?
The quick way around this would be to keep the lazy jacks retracted under sail, of course.
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Thanks Tim,
Let's hope you can "gather more data" soon :-) I bet you're right about the spreaders not being a problem if the lazy jacks attach relatively close to them. I just looked at a photo of the 32-footer I was talking about, and I'd say the ones I had trouble with were a good six feet above the spreaders; it's a cutter and they were attached just below the staysail stay.
We were sailing long passages on that boat, so we retracted them to guard against chafe, although it would have been handy just to have them at the ready. I could totally see leaving them deployed for shorter sails. They do work great for keeping the main managable.
--- Rachel
Let's hope you can "gather more data" soon :-) I bet you're right about the spreaders not being a problem if the lazy jacks attach relatively close to them. I just looked at a photo of the 32-footer I was talking about, and I'd say the ones I had trouble with were a good six feet above the spreaders; it's a cutter and they were attached just below the staysail stay.
We were sailing long passages on that boat, so we retracted them to guard against chafe, although it would have been handy just to have them at the ready. I could totally see leaving them deployed for shorter sails. They do work great for keeping the main managable.
--- Rachel
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Noah, I could not see the photos yesterday..... WOW, that IS some real eye candy!!!!! ;-)
I plan to add the lazy jacks A.S.A.P. I guess the sail set up on the boat is THE thing I am disappointed with.... the luff has a bolt rope that slides into a track, I sprayed the heck out of the track with silicone but it is still very stiff (hard to get UP or DOWN). You can't put a stop on the track where the body of the sail is at least somewhat contained SO only the head car is attached when the sail is doused and the sail is everywhere. The headsail is equally as frustrating, it also has a bolt rope that leads into a track and all is very stiff.
Anybody got any suggestions or ideas to make things more simple in the immediate future? Thanks. Ang
What are your thought on spraying the bolt rope on the sail with silicone....
I plan to add the lazy jacks A.S.A.P. I guess the sail set up on the boat is THE thing I am disappointed with.... the luff has a bolt rope that slides into a track, I sprayed the heck out of the track with silicone but it is still very stiff (hard to get UP or DOWN). You can't put a stop on the track where the body of the sail is at least somewhat contained SO only the head car is attached when the sail is doused and the sail is everywhere. The headsail is equally as frustrating, it also has a bolt rope that leads into a track and all is very stiff.
Anybody got any suggestions or ideas to make things more simple in the immediate future? Thanks. Ang
What are your thought on spraying the bolt rope on the sail with silicone....
- Tim
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Yes. Buy slugs to fit your mast track and attach them to your sail, or have a sailmaker do it (depending on your inclination to do sailmaking sort of things). Then you can add a stop aot keep the sail in place.windrose wrote:Anybody got any suggestions or ideas to make things more simple in the immediate future?
Bolt rope luffs are for hardcore racers (and even most of them are changing these days, at least around here). It's ridiculous to have the whole sail exit the track each time you lower it, unless you have a crew to deal with the mess.
Silicone spray generally works pretty well. One thing you might try is to get a small piece of the same size bolt rope, sew it to a small tab of sail cloth, and use that to lube your tracks--spray the sacrificial piece with the spray, attach a halyard and downhaul, and run it up and down. This will help even after you switch to lugs on your main.
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Ditto what Tim said about the slugs.
Also for those considering lazy jacks, you might be interested in taking a look at the Dutchman sail flaking system. My boat came with this system installed, and so far I like it. No fouling, no slapping, no chafe, no adjusting while underway. When I'm singlehanding I let the halyard go to drop the main and worry about stowing the sail later. Prior to buying my boat I hadn't heard of this system, but based on my experience so far I'd certainly recommend looking at it.
http://www.mvbinfo.com/dp_02_SF.html
Also for those considering lazy jacks, you might be interested in taking a look at the Dutchman sail flaking system. My boat came with this system installed, and so far I like it. No fouling, no slapping, no chafe, no adjusting while underway. When I'm singlehanding I let the halyard go to drop the main and worry about stowing the sail later. Prior to buying my boat I hadn't heard of this system, but based on my experience so far I'd certainly recommend looking at it.
http://www.mvbinfo.com/dp_02_SF.html
John
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Tim,
Are you still happy with where you located the lazyjacks on the boom
(4' to 5' and 10') or did you move them? I am planning to install your system this year.
(yeah, I know, this is an old thread)
Are you still happy with where you located the lazyjacks on the boom
(4' to 5' and 10') or did you move them? I am planning to install your system this year.
(yeah, I know, this is an old thread)
"Alli-Ann" Triton #53
Edgewood Yacht Club
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- Tim
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They work well enough for me that I have not had cause to change them.
However, I'd advise you to pick your own locations based on your own boom and sail, and any obstructions that you have. Don't assume that my measurements will be perfect for your boat, but they're as good a starting point as any.
However, I'd advise you to pick your own locations based on your own boom and sail, and any obstructions that you have. Don't assume that my measurements will be perfect for your boat, but they're as good a starting point as any.
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And since this thread is resurrected anyway, I'll chime in with my two cents: my last boat had the Dutchman system, and I loved it. It was also a full-battened, low aspect ratio sail, and the Dutchman worked like a charm. Sail flaked itself down nicely each time, making lowering and covering a one person, 2 minute job. It also doesn't require that you head perfectly up into the wind to raise or lower - I regularly would raise on any point of sail and lower or reef anywhere from a beam reach forward.
Great system, worth the premium, I think. I'll be installing it on this new boat when I get new sails (probably in the fall) - at least that's my current plan.
Great system, worth the premium, I think. I'll be installing it on this new boat when I get new sails (probably in the fall) - at least that's my current plan.
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Tim,
Thanks for the pictures and description! Great stuff.
Zach
Thanks for the pictures and description! Great stuff.
Zach
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