Replacing standing rigging on Triton #680

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:53 pm

A rainy day is a good day for planning my standing rigging replacement this winter. The boat is over 40 years old. The rigging is of an unknown age and it certainly doesn't look new so I want to replace it.

My thoughts are to go with all mechanical fittings. They work well, I can do them myself, and they are reusable. My inclination is to go with the new Hi-Mod fittings which sound pretty good but a bit too new to have much history. My second choice is Sta-lok but not for any really good reason. (I think I heard of a test where Norseman didn't do as well but that could be more heresay than fact- generaly Norseman gets pretty good reviews)

I have read that toggles on both the top and bottom of the shrouds is a good idea and pretty cheap to implement.

I plan on adding turnbuckles to the jumper struts.

I also plan on sticking with the original sized wires.
3/16" for uppers, lowers (four in my case), and backstay
1/4" for the forestay
1/8" for the jumpers.

The reason I started this post was for this question:

Do bronze turnbuckles fatigue and require replacement regardless of condition or can they be reused as long as they look okay?

A second question. Would the setup be balanced better with the same sized wire on forestay and backstay? Do I really need to go up to 1/4" wire on the forestay with the roller furler installed?

What the heck, #3, is there any reason to consider beefing up the normal Triton chainplates? (thicker)

Any opinions or advice is welcome.

Oh, and I am also going to splurge on a new Schaeffer 1100 roller furler.

-Britton

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:13 pm

bcooke wrote:Do bronze turnbuckles fatigue and require replacement regardless of condition or can they be reused as long as they look okay?

Britton,

I would say that if there is any doubt, replace them.

FWIW, my Navtec turnbuckles are stainless steel, with (I think) bronze rigging screws, and here's what Navtec has to say about them:

One item that Navtec does recommend replacing after 10 years of use or 40,000 miles (whichever comes first) is the turnbuckle screws. With the stress concentrations due to the threads, cracks could be forming that may not be noticed until they fail. The screws may last for many additional years, but it is much cheaper to replace a few rigging screws than to replace a mast and all of the rigging.

From: http://www.navtec.net/support/riggingmatt.cfm
The rest of that page may be of interest, too.

Regards,

Post by **Tim** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:20 am

bcooke wrote:Do bronze turnbuckles fatigue and require replacement regardless of condition or can they be reused as long as they look okay?

There is no hard and fast rule. Bronze lasts a long time, but you need to be sure of the turnbuckles' condition if you're going to reuse them. I don't know how effectively you can truly determine their condition, other than close visual inspection, which has many limitations. One has to decide upon their own comfort level when reusing decades-old gear.

I would (and did) choose to replace them as part of an entirely new rigging program like the one you're doing.

bcooke wrote:Do I really need to go up to 1/4" wire on the forestay with the roller furler installed?

No. Stick with the 3/16" if you want.

bcooke wrote:Is there any reason to consider beefing up the normal Triton chainplates? (thicker)

The original chainplates are puny by today's standards, to be sure. That said, that size seemed to work for the Triton, with most Tritons still sporting their original puny bronze chainplates. If replacement is in order, however, something a bit heavier seems like a prudent idea. Just don't go overboard with the size upgrade.

bcooke wrote:I am also going to splurge on a new Schaeffer 1100 roller furler.

Good choice, and one you won't regret ever.

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:33 am

Tim wrote:
bcooke wrote:I am also going to splurge on a new Schaeffer 1100 roller furler.
Good choice, and one you won't regret ever.

Except when you write the check...

But never after that!

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:43 am

Just another thought:

Why does anyone ever replace their rigging? Because the shrouds and stays are subject to corrosion and fatigue, right? Well aren't the turnbuckles also subject to the same forces? And aren't the chainplates also subject to the same forces? Other than cost, why would one NOT want to replace the turnbuckles AND the chainplates at the same time that they replace the rest of the standing rigging?

deckhand · Post by **deckhand** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:31 pm

I talked with the guys at Hayn while I was at the show and got a chance to install a Hi-Mod myself. I think the easiest way to put the stay-loc to hi-mod comparison is that stay-loc could be called "version 1" and hi-mod "version 2". They both work well but the Hi-Mod is the new generation of the concept. If you go and see a fitting in person, and see it installed or even just look at the components, you'll see what I mean. I'll be using them on my T-30 when the time comes.

Oh and when I talked to rigging guys they all recommended that I go with 316 wire instead of 304. Infact, some of them don't even stock 304 anymore. The reason being is that you get no electrolysis from the metals and superior corrosion resistance for only a 3-5% decrease in strength of the material.

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:09 pm

Here in the boatyard we use a spray dye penetrant and developer to check swages and turnbuckles on rigging.

Its a test kit made by Magnaflux. You can usually get it at welding shops or from an aircraft supply place. Costs about $40.00.

You spray on a cleaner, then the dye penetrant, then a developer.
All stress cracks and corrosion flaws are displayed in high contrast.
Then you just wipe it off.

Here it is.

Might be one of those things thats worth buying if you check rigging all the time (like in a boatyard) but maybe not so much for the everyday boat owner.

Your mileage may vary.

And just for a cost reference, a new rig from my boatyards rigging shop would set you back about $1200-1400. This includes all new wire, new turnbuckles, forks and eyes and all necessary swages (hydraulic). Naturally mechanical fittings will increase the price.

deckhand · Post by **deckhand** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:08 am

"And just for a cost reference, a new rig from my boatyards rigging shop would set you back about $1200-1400. This includes all new wire, new turnbuckles, forks and eyes and all necessary swages (hydraulic). Naturally mechanical fittings will increase the price."

wow thats really good, I calculated that the price for doing it myself in materials alone is going to be about 1,200. This is with mechanical lowers, but still, considering the percentage jump for most yard shops, thats pretty decent.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:47 pm

Thanks for the replies.

I guess to clarify my question on turnbuckles I was looking for a sense of how susceptible bronze is to fatigue failure. I don't know enough about bronze to have doubt. It isn't a metal I know much about. In any event it sounds like replacement might be in my best interest (add ~$400 <sigh>)

I have used penetrant inspection methods before but there always seem to be a caveat with them. If there is a defect/crack, they may show it. Then again, they might not. They are not a particularly definitive method of inspection. Certainly better than a strictly visual inspection.

Except when you write the check...

Yeah, um..... yeah.

The quotes are interesting. My own estimates are definitely higher. Especially when I factor in the fact (is that a pun?) that I always underestimate (often significantly) the total cost any project I take on.

Oh, and my chainplates are stainless, not bronze. Just another difference among Tritons I guess.

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:36 pm

bcooke wrote:Oh, and my chainplates are stainless, not bronze. Just another difference among Tritons I guess.

Mine too. Only 8 boats apart though, so I guess that shouldn't be a surprise.

keelbolts · Post by **keelbolts** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:47 am

I replaced Favona's standing rigging about 10 years ago w/ Sta-Locs. They are easy to install and I've had no problem with them. I found that cutting the wire with a Dremel tool, using one of the thin red cutting discs, resulted in a perfectly clean cut without disturbing the wire's lay. Wear eye protection as the discs are fragile. Favona's turnbuckles are 54 year old bronze and I inspect them periodically, but have no plans to replace them. If you're really worried, Magnaflux them. We Magnafluxed components for F14 engines. If it's good enough for a jet engine it should be good enough for the rigging on a sailboat.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:13 am

When I replaced my standing rigging, I used a grinder cut-off wheel as I didn't want to wait for the dremel. Your mileage may vary with smaller diameter wire rope... I was cutting sizes in the 5/16 to 3/8 range.

I took a 18" 2x4 and routed a channel lengthwise for the wire to lay and used a couple of hand clamps to hold the wire. I also used water via a squirt bottle to keep the stainless cool while cutting. Once measured and marked with a piece of tape, making the cut took a few seconds. I had no trouble with unlaying the wire etc.

The Hayns are basically the same as the Sta-Locs, except with the crown fitting. I've done Sta-Locs before, but could never be sure if one of the wires were crossed. For me, the crown fitting in the Hayn fittings was well worth it since I could be sure the wires wouldn't be crossed-over in the compression fitting. It took me and a friend only 20 minutes per terminal.

One trick I learned from them at the boat show. To unlay the wire for the fitting, hold the bitter end of the wire upright in one hand, and take one of those rubber keychains in the other and cover the end of the wire with it. Twist in the opposite direction of the lay of the wire, and voila! Wish they'd give away good rubber keychains for this!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:06 pm

In specific regards to the forestay and installation of the roller reefer :

The setup that came with the boat has a pair of 12 inch plates
that attach between the stemhead fitting and the bottom of the forestay. The old roller furler was installed to the bottom of the forestay so the addition of the plates raised the furler drum which helped the sail clear the bow pulpit and got the sail higher off the deck.

Does the Schaeffer furler also connect to the bottom fitting of the forestay or does it 'float' on the stay? I am wondering if I need to incorporate those plates into the new setup.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:33 am

Schaefer sells an extended link plate that raises the furler drum off the deck--highly recommended for visibility and clearance for anchor tackle. This serves the same purpose as the dual plates in your old setup.

The extended link is an optional accessory, however. The stock unit comes with a 2" (or thereabouts) link plate that keeps the drum near deck level. Maybe you can reuse your old plates, but it depends on the specifics of the setup.

I deeply regret not ordering the extended link when I installed my furler and had my genoa made. Never again.

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:52 pm

Tim,
It is not too late to follow through - even with your headsail being a radial cut the tack can be re-cut. Not that much work to do.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:09 pm

Tim wrote:...raises the furler drum off the deck--highly recommended for visibility

You drive with your eyes open? Use the Force, man!

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:23 pm

It is better to keep the drum low and use a short cable on the sail tack to raise the sail if you want the visibility. When the drum is too high, getting a fairlead for the furling line can be difficult. If you run it directly aft as the manufacturers suggest, you end up with a nasty trip hazard from the bow to the cabin so you end up running it along the rail (most do this anyway). If you cannot get a good fairlead on the pulpit, you end up running it back to the first stanchion. With that much distance, in light air, the weight of the line carries the furl line low on the drum and it can accumulate and bind while releasing the sail.

While this is more of an inconvenience than a safety issue, it can be a needless pain.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:42 am

Dennis brings up good points that you should consider, but I should reinforce that one big advantage (and the main one that I miss) to a raised furling drum is better clearance for anchors and rollers. Added visibility would be a bonus, but mostly I'd like more room up forward.

The key is to consider all the pros and cons before making the final decision either way. There are sound reasons for either drum location. I find that my large anchors and rollers are annoying to handle around the deck-mounted drum on my boat, so I wish for a higher drum in this case.

I may well go for an extended tack cable when I have a new genoa built someday. (My existing sail isn't worth investing another dollar into.) Reconfiguring the entire furling system isn't something I plan to address--simply too much effort for too little gain at this point. But the next boat will have raised furling drums unless there are specific reasons in that case where it won't work, such as some of the things Dennis pointed out.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:25 am

Is this issue of anchor clearance exacerbated by the relatively shallow angle of the Triton forestay? Might it be less of an issue on a masthead boat, or am I overthinking it?

Post by **Tim** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:57 am

Figment wrote:Is this issue of anchor clearance exacerbated by the relatively shallow angle of the Triton forestay? Might it be less of an issue on a masthead boat, or am I overthinking it?

It's a combination of all factors at hand. Other boats may vary. Placement of anchor rollers and anchor type factors in. Angle of headstay factors in. Width of bow factors in. Size and design of the roller furling drum factors in. One person's annoyance may not be another's. Past fund performance is not an indicator of future potential. Caution: contents may be hot. Blah blah blah.

The good ship Overthinking has sailed long ago here.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:38 pm

OK, Tim brings up a non-issue on Paper Moon. Interference with the anchor. Now I have to wait almost 6 months to see if I would regret lowering the drum for a fair lead. It is another case of learning more from what the PO did wrong than what the PO did right. (I learned a lot on this boat)

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:40 am

Bronze fatigues the same as anything else. A tell tale sign that you should replacement would be any bending or distortion in the turnbuckle body. If the turnbuckle bodies are over 15 yrs old I would consider them suspect. Also check the toggles on the bottom, if they are the type with threaded t bolts isntead of forged (t bolt is the bottom screw that goes into the toggle) I would strongly suggest taking them off and checking if they've loosened up. It's a bit terrifying to adjust a turnbuckle only to have the whole thing separate from the toggle. If it was my boat I would replace.

Good choice on the Hayn Hi Mod fitting. I use these regularly and prefer them to the others mentioned. The big difference to me is in the quality of the machining and the ease of assembly. Hi Mod has a crown ring that makes it easy to line up the outer strands of wire. Only caveat is to make sure you use loctite on the threads, even when test assembling. Stainless on stainless loves to gall. And don't overtighten! My usual method is hand tight, plus 1/4-3/4 turn.

Toggles at the top? How do your stays currently terminate at the top end?

Whats the current jumper adjustment situation? Since it's 1/8" wire you could save weight and money by using a rigging adjuster instead of a turnbuckle.

I would definitely not increase the backstay diameter. This would only incur extra cost and weight.

Schaefer 1100 is a good unit, although my 2c would steer you towards the less expensive but better Harken Unit 1 Cruising. You can typically get these for around $1600 with toggle and new headstay.

Regarding linkplates on furlers. Strong caution not to use linkplates. If you need extra height, get a real SS toggle (like Schaefer and Harken sell) and don't use 2 separate plates! Even though some furler manufacturers sell units like this, it's still a lousy way to add height. Torque on the furler twists the ends of the plates. Heavy wind reefing, or applying too much pressure (as in a jammed line situation) bends the plates and works at the clevis pin holes. I've seen more than a few totally twisted fishplates, and would recommend anyone with this system inspect it regularly for bent plates and deformed clevis pin holes.

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:43 am

Just reread your original post.
Re: the forestay, is it currently 1/4"? If so I wouldn't downsize it to 3/16".
A)you probably have 1/2" clevis pins on the ends
B)loads aren't decreasing with the furler

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:49 pm

Thanks for the input.

My current foresay is larger than the rest of the stays but I was questioning because that doesn't mean there was ever a good reason for it. It isn't original and the original design apparently specifies 3/16" for everything.

Then again, I don't know if roller furlers were very popular 40 years ago so I rather doubt Carl A. gave it due consideration.

I would definitely not increase the backstay diameter. This would only incur extra cost and weight.

I was just thinking of balancing it against the forestay. The larger forestay would require more tension to keep it straight which might put too much tension on the backstay.

I mentioned toggles on top because various sources say that is the best way to go. I also hear that many riggers don't toggle the top so I was left with a 'better go too much than too little' decision. The current stays just pin into brackets on the mast.

The jumper struts are tensioned by extending the spreaders apart using threaded fittings on the ends. Not a great system so I was thinking of something easier to adjust with the rig up. Turnbuckles would be lower and easier to reach too.

The two linkplates came with the boat. Sounds like I need to upgrade them or go without. With my bulky bruce anchor up front, upgrade sounds like a better choice.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:55 pm

bcooke wrote:The larger forestay would require more tension to keep it straight

Why?

catamount · Post by **catamount** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:25 pm

Don't forget that the angle of the backstay vs. the angle of the forestay is likely different, so you will probably have less tension in the backstay than the in the forestay.

Regarding the question of toggles, what I've always heard is that any stay that carries a sail should have toggles top and bottom.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:27 pm

Ummm... physics.

I think.

5 pounds on sewing thread will keep it as taught as a drum. 5 pounds on a 6" diameter cable will have somewhat less effect.

I don't know. It just seems right.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:33 pm

Don't forget that the angle of the backstay vs. the angle of the forestay is likely different, so you will probably have less tension in the backstay than the in the forestay.

Good point. A larger sized forestay is sounding better now.

-Britton

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:56 pm

I've always understood that you should tension rigging wire at 10% of its breaking strength, give or take. Even if that's not the correct figure, I still see what Britton is getting at -- or at least I think I do.

Let's say you have 1/4" wire. It would take X pounds of force (or however you want to say it) to tension it to that 10% point. If you had 3/4" wire, the force required to get to that 10% figure would be much more (more than 3X, say).

This is one argument I've heard for not just "automatically" "sizing up" your wire if you're going offshore. That is, unless you calculate the whole system, who knows if your chainplates, or any other part of the system can stand the extra force when you tighten the larger rigging with more force to achieve the 10% figure.

So Britton's thinking that if he uses larger wire on the forestay, he tightens it with more force, so that leaves some imbalance if he has a smaller backstay. Or at least that's how I read it.

Rachel

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:41 pm

A lot of good things said today!

Regarding toggles: A forestay toggle is a nice thing, although I think it will mostly save you from commissioning damage. I don't generally toggle other stays unless there's a good reason, ie rotating mast. Can't really hurt, except in increased complexity/weight. To add a toggle to a fork fitting on the mast, you can use a eye-jaw toggle and put the marine eye in it.

Regarding the headstay size: the critical question is what size pins do you have top and bottom? It would either be 3/8 or 1/2". If 3/8", I would go with 3/16" wire. If 1/2" I would stick with the 1/4". You can make a 1/4" stay with 3/8" pins (aircraft eye top, 3/8" stud bottom) as well. For what it's worth if I were starting from scratch for this boat I would use 3/16".

Regarding the backstay/forestay issue. The different angles come into play, but the largest loads are still going to be on the forestay, upwind. In this condition it's seeing the forestay load+vang load+ mainsheet load. If you want to see this in action, check the forestay with a loos gauge, sailing on a reach, then crank on the mainsheet or vang to an upwind setting. Watch numbers go way up. In this condition the backstay actually has the least load, and typically is tensioned to take up slack+bend mast. If in doubt, observe rig design on other single spreader fractionally rigged boats boats, generally the backstay is the smallest piece of rigging. Whats your spreader angle?

For the jumpers, it does sound easier to adjust, but I have to ask how often you adjust the jumpers? Where do they terminate on the mast? As much as I like adjustments (I geek out tuning race boats) I'm always wary of adding complexity to systems that may not need it.

You're in luck for the link plate/toggle problem. Harken and Schaefer, being the good manufacturers they are, have made long toggles for their furlers that are nicely built. I would trust these parts offshore.
For the Harken units they have a really gorgeous toggle, which part # 7311.21 1/2 and it works for both the Performance and Cruising Furlers.
Schaefer makes a similar part which is part number 1100-22 (or 1100-24 for the 3/8" pin). I've installed loads of these and they're very solidly built. Only time I've seen problems is when someone drilled out (sigh) a smaller hole to fit their boats pin size. I hate it when they do that.

Cheers,
Kristian

Post by **Tim** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:29 am

By "rigging adjuster", do you mean this sort of thing? Unless saving a few ounces was of prime importance (which sometimes it is...and other times it's just not), I'd much rather have a real turnbuckle. I find these cramped, knurled adjusters to be very difficult to operate, particularly under tension or if (when) they get stuck. There's just no means of applying leverage.

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:25 am

Thats they. I guess at heart I'm just not sure how often you'll adjust the jumpers. Do these terminate very low on the mast on Tritons or something?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:11 am

bcooke wrote: 5 pounds on sewing thread will keep it as taught as a drum. 5 pounds on a 6" diameter cable will have somewhat less effect.

Yes, but that 5lbs of tension would offer the same resistance to a perpendicular force in thread, cable, or linguine.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:48 am

Kristian wrote:Thats they. I guess at heart I'm just not sure how often you'll adjust the jumpers. Do these terminate very low on the mast on Tritons or something?

True enough. For me, it's twice a year: stepping and unstepping (derigging). But that's enough to desire the ease of a turnbuckle when I do have to do it.

Tritons' jumper stays terminate right at the spreaders--low enough to make at least the theoretical in-season adjustment possible if one cared to. (I never have.)

And this photo for general context. The attachment point is barely visible above the spreaders.

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:58 pm

I see your point about adjustment. No easier way than a turnbuckle then.

Anyone ever try a double spreader jumperless rig on these?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:58 pm

Windrose (who frequents this board) is a Triton with a double-spreader rig, and I don't believe it has jumpers. I'm not really up on modern mast terms, but she called it a "super bendy" mast. The PO had fitted it. Perhaps she'll chime in.

Rachel

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:25 pm

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting changing the mast instead of putting on turnbuckles...

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:52 pm

Thanks for the input. When I get a chance I am going to measure my pins. I can't remember off the top of my head.

Schaefer 1100 is a good unit, although my 2c would steer you towards the less expensive but better Harken Unit 1 Cruising. You can typically get these for around $1600 with toggle and new headstay.

Since I don't have much experience or knowledge of roller furlers I am basing my choices off of other people's opinions. The Schaeffer rig always gets good remarks. What makes the Harken unit better? (in your own humble opinion of course!)

-Britton

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:31 pm

Regarding Schaefer or Harken furling systems:

I used to recommend Schaefer over Harken, as the older Harken units had the integral turnbuckle (hard to adjust, easy for inexperienced people to mess up) among other faults.

Since Harken came out with the MkIV, they've solved all my old complaints and now make a better unit, with far better support and at a lower price. Hard to beat that!

Some reasons I prefer the Harken:

-Better anodizing, especially the black anodizing on the drum and torque tube.
-Way better foil joints and bearings. The bearings have a nice large surface (and fit better than the S) The joints are nice and large, and have machined grooves to accept adhesive.
-Easier to access turnbuckle for inspection and adjustment. Also has nice adjustment for foil length to go with headstay length changes.
-Installation is a snap
-Removing split drum and lowering/removing top swivel is easier (on the MkIV models, NA on the cruising)
-Toggle options to suit any kind of installation. This is really important to me, as lots of the furler problems that come my way are caused by poorly designed or improperly executed bottom toggles.
-foil joints secured with 5200 and set screws, not rivets
-two model lines for same size: either MkIV (with two sail grooves, removable split drum and independent sail swivels) or the Cruising (fixed drum, single groove) This really helps me, as most of my furling customers have no need for the features of the racing model. The cruising furler is a better match, and is lower in price.

They're really both great systems for many applications. Either one is going to be a winner for you, and will give you many years of reliable service.

Critical to both systems:

install it right! If doing yourself, make sure you read the manual well, and understand the reasons behind the methods. Measure right. Although I do a lot of this, before I make a furling system, I've measured all the critical dimensions 3 times. Measure, mark, walk away, remeasure. repeat.

Replace the headstay and pins. You'll probably never take the furler apart, so make sure it goes on over a new stay.

If you have any questions, feel free to get a hold of me at kristian (at) chicagoyachtrigging.com

Cheers,
Kristian

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:56 pm

Kristian,

I'm not even in the market for a furler, but I just wanted to say that I'm sure enjoying reading your contributions to the forum, and I'm glad you're here. I appreciate your balanced outlook, and the way you support it with details.

As a side note, I eagerly read about your experiment with removing VC-17 on your blog. My Alberg 30 came from Michigan with a full VC-17 bottom job, (which of course has to be removed if one ever wants to use anything else, except VC Offshore, since it's vinyl).

I knew there would be various possible methods, but was interested to hear about someone else's real experience too. I Googled all kinds of terms, but did not come up with much. Various ideas were batted about (strippers, alcohol, sanding, blasting, scraping), but .... no actual experiments. Soy strip sure sounds like it worked well for you. Whew! I'll keep that in mind for future reference.

Rachel

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:59 pm

I heartily recommend Soy Stripper. I think I'll put a post in the tools and techniques forum!

rshowarth · Post by **rshowarth** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:37 pm

Please post a link

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:19 pm

http://www.franmar.com

Post by **Tim** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:48 am

Here's more information on the Harken MK IV Cruising Furler.

Harken MK IV Cruising (PDF File)

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:02 am

My biggest complaint with the older Harken units are the integral turnbuckle and its adjustment!

I'd really like to replace my existing Mark 1 with this new Mark IV, but there is a lot on the list and hard to justify replacing something that works OK for now (except for the once yearly halyard wrap that is!)

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:13 pm

All the Harken furlers are very well built. I come across MkI and roll pin units from the 80's that are still working perfectly. Furler service is a large part of what I do. Harken units typically need only minor service, unless they've been damaged/misused. The only other types of service issues are the (very) rare crushed drum bearings (too much halyard on for too long) and loose foils (caused by not enough loctite on the joints).

The adjustment of MkI-III furlers has always been the weak spot of the otherwise great system, ast least in my eyes. Trouble spots are:

Not sufficiently loosening the star washer, which is the lock washer on the bottom toggles stud. It's easy (at least it must be as this happens a lot) to try and adjust the turnbuckle with the washer in place, which galls the threads and makes the turnbuckle lock up. Instant $150+ repair.

Not tightening the locking collar on the top of the turnbuckle. Scary, but I see this a fair bit. If the locking collar on top isn't tightened down all the way, the headstay stud can turn out of the turnbuckle: bad.

Curious about your halyard wrap. Usual causes are: slack halyard, a sail thats too short (add pennant to the top) or bad lead from sheave to swivel (Harken makes a sweet halyard restrainer). Halyard wraps are spooky, and I do everything I can to prevent them. I will take a picture of a boat I'm servicing tomorrow, as a halyard wrap sawed through the foil, and split the headstay quite effectively. It's a profurl, which has that stupid Darth-Vader-head thats supposed to prevent wraps.

That MkI of yours will last forever if you take care of it, and if you're like most people the turnbuckle is only annoying at commissioning and derigging. One thing I like to do for my cruising customers that I won't see for a while is get them a spares kit, with a couple foil and drum set screws, a top cap, a plastic locking collar, star washer and a lower toggle (sometimes) that way they can service the small stuff one their own. With the exception of the lower toggle, all those parts are really cheap.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:06 am

Yes, the halyard wrap is spooky.

From what I can tell, it is the top swivle that is the problem... it just seems "stickly" sometimes. I wash it out a few times each season and apply liberal amounts of McLube to keep it running smoothly. Every once in a while it comes back-- usually at the beginning of the season if I haven't serviced it, although it happened this fall.

It is scary actually and one of the reasons I would consider replacing. So far I've been lucky... the worst happened at the dock and I had to be hauled up to the top of the mast to clear it-- at 10:30 at night!

From everything I've read and seen, it is NOT the halyard lead. I keep the halyard one grunt from real tight, and the sail isn't too short (just got a new sail this season actually). The PO seemed to have played around with the shackles on the upper swivel. I just installed what I think is the proper swivel shackle on the upper swivel after the last wrap and I hope that fixes it.

Kristian · Post by **Kristian** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:24 am

Sounds like you're on top of the usual culprits.

If the halyard swivel isn't turning freely, and a freshwater flush doesn't help, i t could be the bearings. I've never seen that problem in a swivel before, but it certainly seems possible. When swivels have gone bad before, it's usually when the bottom portion-thats supposed to rotate with the foil-begins to turn a bit. For that problem I've either been able to get a replacement swivel or in some cases, send it Harken for a rebuild.

What size furler do you have?

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:34 pm

Its actually a Mark II, Unit 2... my memory fades!

I talked to Harken at the Annapolis boatshow when I was first experiencing the problem... this was after I had it down for a year while I was doing lots of work, including replacing all the standing rigging on my Pearson 39. They had suggested I flush it and if I had further problems, to send it in to get the ball bearings replaced.

The drum on this unit is getting trashed. Aside from the rust stains from a boat that was kept in Florida for 20 years, the shank of the anchor likes to wedge itself up underneath the drum when I'm hauling in with the windlass. So I also need a new bow roller/platform which will cause me to replace the bow pulpit.... As is noted on Figment's avatar: Damned because its all connected! :)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:04 pm

Just thought I would pass on some information here.

After a talk with a riggingonly rep about roller furlers...

They are not recommending the Harken cruising model. While about $300 cheaper than the MkIV unit there has been a lot of small design changes in the past year and rigginonly doesn't like them. The MkIV was recommended as the stronger and more reliable unit.

Schaeffer continues to be good but about $400 more than the MkIV. The sales rep has one on his boat.

The extension bar/rod/thingy for the Harken unit, while advertised, is not actually available yet as it has not gone into production. (That sounds odd to me consider Kristian's past remarks)

It seems that Triton owners have earned a reputation as well. When I mentioned that this would be for a Pearson Triton and that the rest of the standing rigging was up for replacement, the sales rep paused and gave me the talk about being extra careful about 'upgrading' the rig. Apparently Triton owners seem to want to up-engineer too much. Too many people have run into problems by beefing up the rigging without considering all the repercusions. Of special note was the pins. These are often not to original spec sizes and matching the rigging to the pin size could overload the whole system.

-Britton

Plastic Classic Forum

Replacing standing rigging on Triton #680

Replacing standing rigging on Triton #680

Re: Replacing standing rigging on Triton #680