Dinghy float test

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Dinghy float test

Post by Figment »

(followup of this thread http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94 )

As mentioned in other posts, I had to float test the new dinghy in order to best determine the primary thwart location. Today was reasonably nice weather, so down to the club we went.....
Image

Image
So there she is. 8' LOA, 52" Beam, draft something like 6". Luan plywood sheathed in 4oz glass and epoxy, all trim and other bits milled from 2X lumber.
Image

And here we float. In the above pic, I think is the ideal trim. The aft transom is just about out of the water. Predictably, I was unable to find a single thwart location that achieved good trim both with myself alone AND with myself and my wife, so I've resigned myself to the fact that I will need to install a second set of oarlocks so that I can row from the forward seat.

Freeboard on this baby is minimal. I think sailing is not an option. The design was geared toward using only two sheets of plywood, however, so I guess everything's a compromise....

Stability is good, however. Before putting blade to wood, I made a 1/12 scale model, which informed a couple of design alterations. The curved top edges of the transoms are the easy one, but I also wanted to maximize carrying capacity so I added 4" of beam. While I'm certain that stability will suffice, I fear I may have pushed beyond the stiffness limitations of the totally-flat bottom. Bottom flexure, particularly with myself in the bow and Julia in the stern, was alarming.
I had noticed this during construction, and was hoping that the (not yet installed) skeg would remedy this, but now I think I'll take the designer's suggestion and install a full length keelson.

Anyway, she should serve to ferry us the hundred yards across the river, and get us around any reasonably calm anchorage. With that easy-planing bottom, towing should be a non-issue.

A couple of coats of paint, a little cushyness for the rubrail, and I'll call this one "Done".
Last edited by Figment on Mon May 26, 2003 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tim »

Mike,

Dinghy looks great--elegantly simple. Thanks for posting the info and pictures. I'm sure it will serve you well, as long as you don't get into the lead-transporting business.

You could consider adding a sort of frame in way of that new center thwart to help stiffen the bottom as well. Just leave limbers in the bottom edge to allow water passage. And the skeg, particularlly if you glass it in to make it structural, should help too.

How much does the boat weigh? 50 lb?

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Post by Figment »

Tim,

A small frame under the twart is certainly a solution that's on my list, but I think it will be my last-ditch effort just because I want to leave a clean inner-bottom to be able to hose this thing out as easily as possible.

Weight..... I'm waiting until after paint and oarlocks and other bits and pieces before getting an actual weight, but right now I'll guess something around 60lbs. Light enough for me to pick up over my head and carry the hundred yards back to the car, but heavy enough for me to wish it were a bit lighter by the time I got there....
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Post by dasein668 »

Nice work Mike! Looks great!

I think you should finish her bright! hehe

I spent some of this rainy Memorial Day Weekend at my local bookstore perusing boat plans and found what I think would be a perfect tender for us: The Acorn. Looks a lot like the Fatty Knees and comes in 8 and 10 foot sizes. A bit more complex to build though: lapstrake plywood over a frame. Probably quite a bit heavier too!

But something to consider, I s'pose.

Especially since it looks like I won't get to sail ever again this season. Crike! Weather!
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Post by Figment »

I too have plans for the Acorn. I was in the process of building a scaled-down Acorn as a fun alternative to the ubiquitous Little Red Wagon for my buddy who was expecting his first child. Then I bought the sponge-for-free-time known as the Triton.

So, if you're looking for 1/3 scale station moulds, or a laminated but not yet shaped 1/3 scale stem, I'm your man! It looks like the little girl will outgrow the wagon before I get to finish it.

I like the looks of the Acorn a lot. Building it would've been fun. Complex? maybe, but more is the joy....
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Post by dasein668 »

Ha! No need for a 1/3 sized Acorn, but I do think that might be the direction I go for a dinghy.

Unless Heather gives in and just lets me buy a Fatty Knees...

You have the plans: does it seem like something a first-time boat builder, with moderate woodworking skills could pull off?
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Post by Figment »

Nathan, I hesitate to be this preachy, but I must urge you in the strongest possible terms to get the wife fully on board with the idea of whatever tender you decide to build. Building any boat is a remarkable investment of time, and if she resents that time in any way, building the boat will quickly become a huge pain in your ass. Julia thought it was silly, but tolerable that I was building a canoe, UNTIL she realized that it was a one-seater. From that moment on, every time my hand hit the knob it was "are you going out to work on your stupid canoe again?!!!" Her attitude toward this dinghy has been altogether different..... "so hurry up and build MY seat already!" End of Sermon.

Can a first-timer build an Acorn? That depends... how many times are you prepared to scrap two days' work and start with a fresh piece when you goof something up?

Seriously. It'll purely be a matter of your own frustration management. As with anything else, there's a necessary learning curve. You WILL screw up and be forced to scrap perfectly good (expensive) material that just consumed a few hours of your life. If you can deal with that without getting your shorts in a twist, you can build any boat. "Woodworking skill" might mean the difference between varnishing for the Greater Glory or painting to hide the sins, but that's all.

My gut call is that anyone with the audacity to own a 40 year old boat can certainly build his own dinghy. If planning to build the Acorn, or really any glued lapstrake boat, you should get yourself a copy of Iain Oughtred's Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding. It's a bit of a thorny read, because as he describes the process he refers to three or four different designs at once, but once you train your eyes to filter out the stuff that doesn't apply to the design you're building, it's well worth it.

My parting shot on this first time boatbuilding topic is always this: Spend some energy finding a design that will fulfill your pragmatic requirements, but don't let that be the last word. Find a design that you LOVE. If the drawings or photos don't make your heart go pitterpat, keep looking. The motivation comes a lot more easily when you can keep that beautiful image in your head.

For all of the above reasons and more, there's nothing like it.

Also be forewarned.... it's addictive. I know that this dink won't be the last I'll build. Neither will the next, nor the one after that. I suspect that I'll always find some excuse to be building some small boat or another. (I suspect that Tim, fellow project-junkie, can relate to this)
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Post by Tim »

Yes indeed--boatbuilding and project-doing is a serious addiction. The problem I have is that I like to work on larger boats than just dinghies!

Early last winter, I toyed with the idea of building a Nutshell, just for the experience and the fun of it. I hemmed and hawed, bought the "Building a Nutshell" book, etc. Then, the opportunity to buy Triton #100 and start the daysailor project arose, so that ended my thoughts of the dinghy for the moment. Now I have my hands full (at least in concept).

Every boat I see is, in some way, a potential candidate to work on. I just have to have the willpower to avoid filling my whole yard with derelicts. Now I'm gonna send myself to the poor house building a barn to house the project-doing, so I guess I need to stick to just one boat at a time for a while.

So are any details on the Acorn available online, or is it just in a plan book somewhere? I'd like to see what you guys are talking about.
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Post by dasein668 »

Mike: Sermon accepted as offered! Hehe. Yeah, Heather isn't necessarily anti-building-a-boat in concept, because she knows I want to, she knows we need to decide on some sort of dinghy solution, and she knows I'm thiiiiis close to going postal at the office... ;-P Her concerns are: we won't actually have said dinghy forever (valid!) and she's still a bit concerned about the practicality for our needs of a rigid tender.

I'm definitely not afraid of the frustration management issues. Tim will attest that while I can definitely get my shorts in a twist (great expression!) I also always end my venting sessions with: "sigh. Well.. at least its better than working!"

I found an online journal of the Acorn construction process by a newbie boat-builder yesterday, and that was eye-opening. Definitely well within my skill-level, I think, but a lot more complex (read: time consuming) than I though when looking at the lines drawings. Link here: fatguysbuildingboats.tripod.com Kind of busy site, but look near the top for the link to the "Construction Journal"

And finally, I whole-heartedly agree on the "pitter-pat" comment. That's why we bought a Triton, and not a Catalina! hehe
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Post by Figment »

I actually read through the fat guys site a number of times as I was setting up for my mini-acorn, and I thought they overcomplicated it. Each piece of wood on the boat is not worth its own melodrama.

But they illustrate another side of the issue.... building the boat for the sake of building the boat. I think that site is a good example of how all-consuming it can become. It was that way for me with the canoe. I didn't build the canoe because I needed or even wanted a canoe. I use it once a year at a fishing/beerdrinking derby in VT and even then it's pretty poorly suited to the purpose. I can honestly say that I had a lot more fun building that boat than I've had using that boat.
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Post by Tim »

That Acorn is a very pretty boat, and would be very satisfying to build. It looks like it would row well, and sail well if so fitted. If finished off nicely, it could be a work of art, as this photo shows.

Image

However, I tend to question its overall versatility as the working utility boat that a dinghy needs to be. To me, it looks more like a boat that one should build for the sheer joy of it, and to use as a boat in its own right. A boat that is too "beautiful" is useless as a tender because you always have to be worried about banging up your brightwork, or dragging that keel across rocks and sand (or pavement), and so on. The wineglass shape and narrowish beam would make it a joy to row, but somewhat less effective as a cargo carrier--and more unstable than some designs. That said, it's not an overly narrow or delicate design, so it would still work well. Just not as well as some other options, maybe.

To me, a dinghy for a cruising boat is far too much of a workhorse to use such a pretty, finely-finished boat. And building the Acorn in any way but one to highlight its construction and shape would be a pity--it's far too nice to build with the intention of painting out the whole thing. The bright interior is a joy to behold, but would be entirely impractical to use as a working boat.

It looks like a great design, and fun--if complex--to build. As a longer-term project, one to play with and fuss over, by all means--and the joy it would give later, used as a play boat on a lake, oceanfront, etc, would make the construction very satisfying. But as the overall dinghy solution, I don't think it's quite so practical. I believe it's definitely a plan worth building, though, just for the sheer fun and experience of it. I'm impressed with how attractive it is.

I would build the 10' sailing version, myself, with the intention of using it as a play boat from time to time, but mostly for the fun of building it. But for overall dinghy versatility, and for something that is more useful as a cargo and people carrier (and something to not fret about at the dinghy dock, beach, or wherever), I think there are better, more practical solutions. Worrying about the dinghy is one thing you don't need.

That's why I love the Fatty Knees. Yes--it's definitely a premium dinghy, price-wise. But that's not the point. It's a tough, basic boat that does its job extremely well. It holds abundant weight and cargo, rows nicely with a load, has high topsides for those choppy days, and even sails well. It only weighs 80 lb, but is rugged. Sure, it would look great if I varnished all the teak trim. But I refuse. It's a work boat, and while I will never neglect or abuse it, neither will I baby or coddle it. If the hull gets scarred up a little, so be it. If the teak is gray--so be it. I don't mind tracking muck and sand into it, or greasy gunk from gross commercial docks, or whatever. I may obsess about the maintenance and condition of Glissando (within certain practical limits), but with the dinghy I just can't go there. To my way of thinking, any dinghy needs to be able to satisfy these requirements when used as more than occasional, "look at how pretty I am" transportation. No real sailors or cruisers have precious dinghies--it's just not practical.

Perhaps that's why RIBs have become so popular. They're pretty bulletproof, maintenance-free, and do their intended service with aplomb. I wanted a boat I could row, which is why I didn't choose the RIB route--I never want to rely on an outboard. But there's no denying that RIBs make excellent tenders in almost all other ways.

Buy the Acorn plans and have fun building it. But build it for the fun of it, and to make it all it can be--not to use as the ultimate tender.
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Post by dasein668 »

Tim made some great points. I had certainly origninally conceived the boat as nothing more than a workboat--albeit a pretty one. I, in fact, had considered it as something to just paint out and not worry about.

On the other hand, it does look like a boat that'll take much longer to build than I originally imagined, and as such, the idea that it should be also a work of art has more credence to my mind.

Its all up in the air at this point, of course, so its good to get the feedback! Thanks for all the input.
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Post by Figment »

Keep hunting, Nathan. There are thousands of small boat designs out there. I'm certain that you'll find one that lights your fire and suits your needs.

Strap in. I feel a ramble coming on......

It could also be argued that one should build a more utilitarian "paint-grade" boat to gain experience before attempting something worthy of brightwork. And so what if you find you don't need the boat in a few years? Invent a price for it, donate it to a boyscout camp, and claim enough tax credit to cover your material costs. Who's better than you?

I agree that the Acorn is better suited to being its own boat than to being a workhorse. A better workhorse might be Joel White's Catspaw, or possibly even the Shellback. (I'm a Joel White fan, I admit). But in all honesty, I think Phil Bolger has the true workhorses, with Bateau close on his heels.

The catch-22 here is that "fun boat" and "useful boat" are almost always forces in direct opposition. Dinghies that sail well are generally not great tenders, and stable dinghies with good carrying capacity and rowability generally sail like crap. All things are a compromise.

Another interesting oxymoron is the notion of a "stable tender". A tender, by definition, must be small enough to ride on the foredeck of the mother vessel. To be stable, the tender must be of a certain length.
sidethought.... I once read that in small boats, stability is more a function of length than of beam. I can't recall the particular how's and why's, but I think it had something to do with the increased length allowing more of the boat to have effective beam. This is also why prams are so popular.... more of the boat has effective beam.
That's why you don't see many designs under 8', though 8' is really a pain to stow on most boats. In fact, I'm developing the opinion that 10' is really much better, but 8' is the popular size because 8' material is much cheaper and it can fit in a truckbed. Hence the "nesting" two-piece dinghies, which make an 11' or 12' boat manageable.

....but I digress. Ah, maybe you should just go get a FattyKnees so you and Tim can do a little onedesign matchracing! I imagine that triton-for-triton you guys aren't really onedesign because Glissando's so much more heavily loaded than Dasein, no?
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Post by Tim »

I imagine that triton-for-triton you guys aren't really onedesign because Glissando's so much more heavily loaded than Dasein, no?
Hey now! I resemble that remark. :<)

Actually, I think experience has shown that the two boats are surprisingly compatible in a match-racing/sailing situation, despite Glissando weighing enough extra to float a couple inches lower than Dasein. That's one of the beauties of the Triton--the design carries extra weight well, without a serious performance detriment. At least that's been my experience, having sailed the boat both heavily loaded and virtually empty. There is certainly a different feel to the loaded boat, but performance does not suffer the way one would think. Try adding 2000 lbs. of cruising gear to a J/28...she'd be a slug afterwards.

I think Glissando is a naturally heavy Triton to begin with--my core samples seem to be generally a bit thicker than others have found in similar areas. Even when she first went back in the water after the restoration--when she was more or less completely unloaded--she floated well below the ridiculously-misplaced "designed water line" demarked by the lower scribe line. Ha! What a joke that is. My new waterline, restruck last fall, is painted approximately 6" higher than that silly lower scribe; about 1.5 - 2" of bottom paint are above the water as she floats now, which means she floats about 4" deeper than designed (supposedly).

Image

Aside: if anyone wants more info on my waterline raising, check it out online. Go to the "New" section of the website and click on "Small Projects" to find the link for "Raising the Waterline". I can't give a direct link because of the frames setup on the site--sorry.

Maybe the boat was built between 1st and 2nd shift. The guys on second shift didn't know whether 1st shift had added the second round of glass, so they went ahead and did it too, just in case. haha

But I like the idea of summer afternoon dinghy match races...Nathan, come on--get that dinghy, will ya? It's only money. Sheesh, don't be such a stick in the mud... :<P

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Post by dasein668 »

Mike: Yeah, stable tender is a bit of an oxymoron, although not entirely. Obviously a tender won't be as stable as a bigger boat since it is so much smaller. On the other hand, some tenders are much more stable than others. For example, the Nutshell, nice as she is, is much more tippy than some other designs.

I'm absolutely not worried that I won't be able to find a boat. The question is whether I'll find a boat that I want to build which will also be my workhorse tender, or if I'll just suck it up and buy a workhorse, and then build a boat just for fun. (Aside: Geez, I just reread that: boy it sure sucks to be me, huh? 28 and I have a sweet sailboat and now I'm agonizing over whether to build a workhorse dinghy or to build a sweet fun sailing dinghy. Brother. Puts things in perspective to look at it that way! Can you tell that I actually got out on my boat today? hehe)

Anyhow...

On the one-design comments, I have to agree with Tim. Despite the fact that my boat floats like a cork next to him, he does very well when we sail "against" each other. Sometimes he's faster; sometimes I am. I don't think its because he's such a better sailor, either! hehe. He's good, but I'm ok myself, so I think it comes down to the fact that the boats really handle a load well.

And racing Fatty Knees is sounding quite intriguing... How much is the sailing rig again? haha.
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Post by Tim »

Obviously, any 8' boat is going to have inherent stability questions. The key is to find the best blend of stability, size, utility, rowability, and (optional) sailability. Can one boat be all of these things?

Frankly, I have to say (and I would say it even if I didn't own one) that the FK comes about as close as anything I have experienced. That is not to say the boat is perfect--certain characteristics could be changed which would benefit one aspect or another of the overall boat, while harming some other aspect--but as an overall compromise, I couldn't be happier.

It rows well, even heavily loaded to the gills with two people, laundry, ice, etc., and even in a snotty chop.

It sails amazingly well for such a pudgy little design. I think Lyle Hess, the designer, had an uncanny knack for making fat hulls slippery and fast. With the wide, open center of the boat, crouching down to sail is pretty comfy--and the teak slats keep the ever-present bilge water away.

The wide beam, carried all the way aft and well forward (as far as it could be without turning the boat into a pram), makes the boat roomy and as stable (and then some) as could be expected in such a small boat. The difference between the FK and the ubiquitous Dyer Dhow is startling in this regard.

The high topsides (the bow of the FK is as high as the transom of the Triton) mean that you don't end up with a "death dinghy" when loaded with stores, gear, or people. Rowing the boat alone perpendicular to a stiff breeze, though, requires a strong hand on the oars, as the windage from the topsides tends to make the stern wander.

Will the FK fit on the foredeck of a Triton? Well, for 2 years I've been meaning to rig up a hoist and try it out. Haven't gotten around to it yet. It will certainly be a tight, inconvenient fit, but I think it will just work if absolutely necessary.

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Post by Dave 397 »

Wow...you fellows are taking these way seriously! Then again, so am I, but it is in back-burnersville for the moment.

Anyone ever sail a penguin? I had an old beater one as a kid. MY first boat, if you could call it that. The mast was missing, so we made one out of lammed-up 2X4's that my best friend and I borrowed somewhere or other. Actually managed to get the taper right, more or less, but the fine krylon finish did little as a moisture barrier and the boat soon had an interseting asymetrical sailing character due to the warpy mast.

Sorry 'bout the digression.
Anyway, I am thinking of something like a slightly scaled-down penguin with a less powerful rig (16 foot mast is not in my plans) and an angled daggerboard in place of the C/B arrangement. Oh, yeah, i forgot: it has to split in half athwartships to nest on the coachroof. Also has to be fun to sail so that jess has hours of fun and mary and I do not become brother and sister instead of husband and wife...:^).
Has anyone seen a plan that roughly matches this idea, so that I may be saved the re-drafting of a Rhodes Penguin?

One more digression--I know I have passed the point of no return on the project for sure as if there is no research or planning to do I still sit dumbly awake until 0200 or so staring blankly at my drawings or the computer. Either that or it's the fumes from the Z-Spar Varnish I've been laying down every other night on this project that occupies the kitchen table, for several months. I didn't want to corrupt the beauty of that lovely spanish cedar with filler, you see...if you cut the $%^%#@!&*()_thing in half, I bet it is varnished all the way through!

best,
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Post by Figment »

Yeah, I'm a broken record, but..... the Nester design by Dave Gerr is, in my opinion, the most well-thought-out nesting dinghy design I've seen. If memory serves, it is designed to carry sail, though I'm not sure if anyone's yet built one to sail.

As for the height of the mast.... there's no law requiring the use of the marconi rig, right? What's the rig that uses a shorter fixed-mast, then has a near-vertical gaff that extends higher?? "bermuda"? anyway, the use of shorter sticks, but more of them, is the idea. See if you can lay your hands on Todd Bradshaw's book "The Canoe Rig". It's a venerable encyclopedia of small-boat rig types and their attributes.

I couldn't remember what a Penguin looked like, so I googled it and came across this incredible website...

http://old.cruisingworld.com/ssbk/ssbolndx.htm

An impressively extensive database of small sailboat designs.
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Post by Figment »

I had to post this. After all of my hemming and hawing about skimping on my tender, all the while striving to get it to look as nice as possible, keeping up appearances and all. This is the nesting dinghy of our upriver neighbor.....

Image

A classic design.
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Post by Figment »

I can't let this one go. I'm pathetic.

The current issue of Good Old Boat has a piece about a guy who's built two of Gerr's nesters with cedarstrip canoe construction. 11' and 9'. It's a good read because he reports on lessons learned in tinkering with the design to get it to 9' (not enough capacity) as well as the actual weight savings of the cedarstrip construction, and an improvement on Gerr's hardware.

Of course, I must pick three nits....

I gotta think that softening the bilges enough for the strips to make the curve has an adverse effect on stability, but no comment in the article.

How in the world did this guy spend $1000 on materials??? I built a 15' cedarstrip canoe trimmed in mahogany for less than $500!

Poor baby scaled the design down to 9' because he didn't want to spare deck space for the 11' version on his Cape Dory 36!!! I'm sorry, but that's a BIG boat in my book. If you can't manage 4'x6' of deck space on a CD36 you've got larger issues at work.

Yeah, yeah, one of these days I'll build a nester and shut myself up.
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